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Loran Livingston: I believe in Eternal Security
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Post diakoneo
Several years ago, before I was saved for the final time Shocked , me and my wife were looking around for churches to take our 4 year old daughter to, because she needed to be in church. Smile . Anyway we happened upon a Southern Baptist church that I knew the pastor had an AG background as far as his parents, grandparents etc. and he himself grew up AG. Well that morning guess what he preached on? Yeah you guessed it "eternal security". He went on and on about how you could never ever ever lose your salvation. Thing is we both noticed there was not much true conviction in what he said. In other words, it didn't seem like he really believed it but was preaching it to satisfy someone besides God. We never went back! Even though they had a great children's program. We wound up in the Nazarene church, where God really began dealing with me.

My wife grew up in the Southern Baptist church by the way, so I can tell you they(Southern Baptists) all don't believe that way. Neither did her parents even though the church where they were members taught it.

Loran Livingston is a very successful long term pastor and one of my favorite preachers. Doesn't make him infallible.

I understand that he hates Actscelerate and has called it some pretty nasty names. I guess he doesn't read this forum and that is too bad.

I would really love to hear what he thought about some of these threads about him. Question
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6/24/15 12:57 pm


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Post Cojak
Eddie Robbins wrote:
That's why there is some truth in stereotypes. You can always find some who think that way. I can find some who believe that if you don't speak with tongues, you're not saved.

But, for the most part, those churches that teach eternal security do not teach that you can be saved and keep right on sinning.


In my travels and conversations with Baptist friends, I agree. Cool
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Post The Church of God has traditionally sided with Arminian spartanfan
The Assemblies of God explain the differences in their position as:

Calvinism teaches (1) the total depravity of man, (2) God's unconditional election (or predestination) of those who will be saved, (3) that Christ died only for the elect, not for every person, (4) that God's saving grace toward the elect cannot be resisted, and (5) that once a person is saved, he can never lose his salvation.

Arminianism teaches something different on each of these points: (1) Though born a sinner, mankind is given a spark of divine grace that enables him to respond positively to God. (2) God does not arbitrarily consign some people to eternal damnation; their willful rejection of God’s salvation makes them responsible. (3) Christ died for every person, even though some refuse to accept the provision for their salvation (4) No person is forced against his or her will to become a Christian. (5) One’s salvation can be lost through willful disobedience. Rather than the unconditional predestination of Calvinism, Arminianism teaches conditional predestination. We are predestined to eternal life if we accept God’s provision of salvation.

Read the whole article at: The Security of the Believer (Backsliding)
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gendoct_09_security.cfm
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6/25/15 6:29 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Darl Bundren wrote:
Well, Wyatt went to college with some 19-year-old boys who didn't understand doctrine. Therefore, all Southern Baptists believe you can get saved and then live in sin for the rest of your life and you'll go Heaven, anyway.

Glad we have that cleared up, now.


Nope, what we cleared up Darl is the fact that some folk absolutely do believe that once saved, even if ya lapse into sinful livin for a season, ya still gonna go to heaven. An all of em aint 19.
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6/25/15 8:15 am


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Post We Should Hold On To Our Position..... spartanfan
The Assemblies of God has taken a strong stand against the teaching that God’s sovereign will completely overrides man’s free will to accept and serve Him. In view of this we believe it is possible for a person once saved to turn from God and be lost again. However, we do not go to the other extreme of teaching that mankind’s choice of receiving or rejecting Christ makes a person totally responsible for his own salvation apart from Christ’s atonement. Article VIII of the Assemblies of God Bylaws opposes unconditional security with the following statement:

In view of the biblical teaching that the security of the believer depends on a living relationship with Christ (John 15:6); in view of the Bible's call to a life of holiness (1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14); in view of the clear teaching that a man may have his part taken out of the Book of Life (Revelation 22:19); and in view of the fact that one who believes for a while can fall away (Luke 8:13); The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost.

(From a very good AG resolution: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/gendoct_09_security.cfm
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6/25/15 8:15 pm


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Post Need an explanation Purplebarney
For those of you who do NOT believe what Loran Livingston teaches when it comes to the salvation doctrine can you explain to me what your beliefs are? Especially those who are COG pastors. I've given this example before but I really want an answer.

example:

John is a Christian. And for the past 40 years has attended the Church of God (you know, the only true COG not that COG out of Anderson, IN that doesn't preach the "whole Bible" Ha!). John has been a strong Christian for many many years. Tongue talker. Prophesies. Shouts. Etc.... etc.....etc.....

On the way home from Church one Sunday someone cuts John off and he's had one of those days where everything has gone wrong and he's really ticked off. A few minutes later someone else cuts John off and he just lets a "4 letter" word fly or even gives the "one finger" salute. 30 seconds later the rapture takes place before John has a chance to repent for his sins. Is John going to hell?? If you believe a person can lose his salvation then would God condemn John to hell for that one little sin he just committed? And if you're gonna tell me that his sin wasn't that bad....well....is there a chart for sins that can send you to hell and sins that are still ok? I'm just confused and want to understand everyone's views on this issue. I'm not at all trying to be funny or sarcastic (except for the Anderson, IN COG reference which I thought was REALLY funny! ha!)

Y'all can start typing now.........

For the record, I believe like Loran Livingston. And for John.....theres NO WAY that good old COG boy goes to hell.....NO WAY!!!!!
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6/29/15 8:41 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Patrick Harris
Purplebarney wrote:
For those of you who do NOT believe what Loran Livingston teaches when it comes to the salvation doctrine can you explain to me what your beliefs are? Especially those who are COG pastors. I've given this example before but I really want an answer.

example:

John is a Christian. And for the past 40 years has attended the Church of God (you know, the only true COG not that COG out of Anderson, IN that doesn't preach the "whole Bible" Ha!). John has been a strong Christian for many many years. Tongue talker. Prophesies. Shouts. Etc.... etc.....etc.....

On the way home from Church one Sunday someone cuts John off and he's had one of those days where everything has gone wrong and he's really ticked off. A few minutes later someone else cuts John off and he just lets a "4 letter" word fly or even gives the "one finger" salute. 30 seconds later the rapture takes place before John has a chance to repent for his sins. Is John going to hell?? If you believe a person can lose his salvation then would God condemn John to hell for that one little sin he just committed? And if you're gonna tell me that his sin wasn't that bad....well....is there a chart for sins that can send you to hell and sins that are still ok? I'm just confused and want to understand everyone's views on this issue. I'm not at all trying to be funny or sarcastic (except for the Anderson, IN COG reference which I thought was REALLY funny! ha!)

Y'all can start typing now.........

For the record, I believe like Loran Livingston. And for John.....theres NO WAY that good old COG boy goes to hell.....NO WAY!!!!!

No. He won't go to hell. God is not looking for reasons to keep his children out, as some believe.
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6/29/15 9:11 pm


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Post Purplebarney zjudah1
Do you really think that a 40 year Christian/Believer has someone cut him off in traffic a couple times is going to throw up a finger? Or throw out some cuss words? I dont believe that for one minute. I read somewhere that 'from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.' He's been towing the line for 40 years, what's REALLY inside him will come out. Truth? yes, Frustration? yes, filth? no way! Friendly Face
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7/6/15 12:57 pm


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Post bigchurchmouse
I agree. If filthy language is not in your heart it will not come out your mouth. Plain and simple. Golf Cart Mafia Capo
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7/6/15 1:44 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Old Time Country Preacher
Purplebarney wrote:
John is a Christian. And for the past 40 years has attended the Church of God (you know, the only true COG not that COG out of Anderson, IN that doesn't preach the "whole Bible" Ha!). John has been a strong Christian for many many years. Tongue talker. Prophesies. Shouts. Etc.... etc.....etc.....

On the way home from Church one Sunday someone cuts John off and he's had one of those days where everything has gone wrong and he's really ticked off. A few minutes later someone else cuts John off and he just lets a "4 letter" word fly or even gives the "one finger" salute. 30 seconds later the rapture takes place before John has a chance to repent for his sins. Is John going to hell?? If you believe a person can lose his salvation then would God condemn John to hell for that one little sin he just committed? And if you're gonna tell me that his sin wasn't that bad....well....is there a chart for sins that can send you to hell and sins that are still ok? I'm just confused and want to understand everyone's views on this issue. I'm not at all trying to be funny or sarcastic (except for the Anderson, IN COG reference which I thought was REALLY funny! ha!)

Y'all can start typing now.........

For the record, I believe like Loran Livingston. And for John.....theres NO WAY that good old COG boy goes to hell.....NO WAY!!!!!



Only if he is COG of Prophecy! Tomlinson an his boys shoulda pressed the sanctified life into John's spirit. John knowed better than to give the one finger salute. He lapsed in his livin an is lost.
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7/6/15 2:14 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Patrick Harris
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
Purplebarney wrote:
John is a Christian. And for the past 40 years has attended the Church of God (you know, the only true COG not that COG out of Anderson, IN that doesn't preach the "whole Bible" Ha!). John has been a strong Christian for many many years. Tongue talker. Prophesies. Shouts. Etc.... etc.....etc.....

On the way home from Church one Sunday someone cuts John off and he's had one of those days where everything has gone wrong and he's really ticked off. A few minutes later someone else cuts John off and he just lets a "4 letter" word fly or even gives the "one finger" salute. 30 seconds later the rapture takes place before John has a chance to repent for his sins. Is John going to hell?? If you believe a person can lose his salvation then would God condemn John to hell for that one little sin he just committed? And if you're gonna tell me that his sin wasn't that bad....well....is there a chart for sins that can send you to hell and sins that are still ok? I'm just confused and want to understand everyone's views on this issue. I'm not at all trying to be funny or sarcastic (except for the Anderson, IN COG reference which I thought was REALLY funny! ha!)

Y'all can start typing now.........

For the record, I believe like Loran Livingston. And for John.....theres NO WAY that good old COG boy goes to hell.....NO WAY!!!!!



Only if he is COG of Prophecy! Tomlinson an his boys shoulda pressed the sanctified life into John's spirit. John knowed better than to give the one finger salute. He lapsed in his livin an is lost.


A lapse does NOT mean lost.

Unless you believe that salvation is a perpetual revolving door.
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7/6/15 3:02 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Carolyn Smith
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:


Only if he is COG of Prophecy! Tomlinson an his boys shoulda pressed the sanctified life into John's spirit. John knowed better than to give the one finger salute. He lapsed in his livin an is lost.


OK, I have to admit that made me chuckle.

But I agree with Patrick.
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7/6/15 11:20 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Ventureforth
Purplebarney wrote:
John has been a strong Christian for many many years. Tongue talker. Prophesies. Shouts. Etc.... etc.....etc.....

On the way home from Church one Sunday someone cuts John off and he's had one of those days where everything has gone wrong and he's really ticked off. A few minutes later someone else cuts John off and he just lets a "4 letter" word fly or even gives the "one finger" salute. 30 seconds later the rapture takes place before John has a chance to repent for his sins. Is John going to hell?? If you believe a person can lose his salvation then would God condemn John to hell for that one little sin he just committed? And if you're gonna tell me that his sin wasn't that bad....well....is there a chart for sins that can send you to hell and sins that are still ok? I'm just confused and want to understand everyone's views on this issue. I'm not at all trying to be funny or sarcastic (except for the Anderson, IN COG reference which I thought was REALLY funny! ha!)


One might also ask:
Is there a number of sins that causes one to lose his salvation? Where is the line a person crosses that says "that's one sin too many"?

I think some Christians are vexed by questions similar to these.

With that in mind, I noticed the quoted AG statement uses the phrase "willful disobedience." How much? Are there certain acts in mind? Many sins are willful, at least at the moment of commission. I'm just thinking the phrase is a little vague it seems to me. Please understand, this is no criticism of the AG.

Note: I don't hold a flippant or callous attitude about sin. I just think we need to be careful our teaching on sin is not counter productive, but yes, is true to the contexts of scripture.


Last edited by Ventureforth on 7/10/15 10:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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7/9/15 11:10 pm


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Post Re: Need an explanation Cojak
Carolyn Smith wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:


Only if he is COG of Prophecy! Tomlinson an his boys shoulda pressed the sanctified life into John's spirit. John knowed better than to give the one finger salute. He lapsed in his livin an is lost.


OK, I have to admit that made me chuckle.

But I agree with Patrick.


Smile Smile Smile Smile
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7/10/15 9:59 am


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Post Re: Need an explanation Old Time Country Preacher
Carolyn Smith wrote:
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:


Only if he is COG of Prophecy! Tomlinson an his boys shoulda pressed the sanctified life into John's spirit. John knowed better than to give the one finger salute. He lapsed in his livin an is lost.


OK, I have to admit that made me chuckle.

But I agree with Patrick.



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7/10/15 10:05 am


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Post I too believe..... spartanfan
I believe in eternal security but not until you die or are raptured in Christ. Up until then we are fully capable of backsliding and finding our self a cast away (good for nothing but to be trodden under feet) and thrown into the fire (eternally, Gehenna doesn't burn out and your worm doesn't die there). All this other stuff is man trying to reconcile what they think is unreconcilable - a loving God and God who created an eternal place of torment. They can't wrap their mind around the goodness and severity of God..... Romans 11:22
(Young's Literal Translation) "Lo, then, goodness and severity of God -- upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off." If people have trouble with the "severity" of God then they have a tendency to change Him into someone who is not quite so severe. It is what it is - and you can't sugar coat it: 2 Peter Chapter 2:20-22 says....
20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

How can you just explain that away without destroying (misinterpreting) the Word? Answer: it cant be done. It is what it is no matter who soothes their emotions with a made up Gospel.
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7/10/15 10:24 am


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Post Re: I too believe..... Ventureforth
spartanfan wrote:
I believe in eternal security but not until you die or are raptured in Christ. Up until then we are fully capable of backsliding and finding our self a cast away (good for nothing but to be trodden under feet) and thrown into the fire (eternally, Gehenna doesn't burn out and your worm doesn't die there). All this other stuff is man trying to reconcile what they think is unreconcilable - a loving God and God who created an eternal place of torment. They can't wrap their mind around the goodness and severity of God..... Romans 11:22
(Young's Literal Translation) "Lo, then, goodness and severity of God -- upon those indeed who fell, severity; and upon thee, goodness, if thou mayest remain in the goodness, otherwise, thou also shalt be cut off." If people have trouble with the "severity" of God then they have a tendency to change Him into someone who is not quite so severe. It is what it is - and you can't sugar coat it: 2 Peter Chapter 2:20-22 says....
20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

How can you just explain that away without destroying (misinterpreting) the Word? Answer: it cant be done. It is what it is no matter who soothes their emotions with a made up Gospel.


From the context, who are the passages you quoted speaking about?
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7/10/15 1:51 pm


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Post 2 Peter 2:20-22 spartanfan
The text talks about those who's escape was obtained through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It's plain and we must let the text speak for itself. Some (in order to save face and protect their false doctrine) try to argue that “they” escaped the pollutions of the world but not the world.

Some try to say that it refers to false teachers who never were really saved to begin with. Those are real stretches. It's obvious that they had once escaped but became entrapped again. You just can't justify the reasoning that the "they" mentioned at one time had “escaped the pollutions of the world” and later were “again entangled therein” but escaping the pollution doesn't mean they were actually saved. Makes no sense.

Peter even proclaims that “they” had known the way of righteousness and then turned away from it. The language could not be plainer. It is significant that the Greek word for “knowledge” used in this passage is epignosis. This Greek word is predominately used by NT writers with reference to a full and complete knowledge, in contrast to an investigative or superficial knowledge (gnosis).

Strong says of epignosis, “full discernment” [Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, #1922]. Kittel says, “The compound epignosis can take on almost a technical sense for conversion to Christianity” [Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 121]. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words says of gnosis, “primarily a seeking to know, an enquiry, investigation”, and of epignosis- “denotes exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition, and is a strengthened form of [gnosis], expressing a fuller or a full knowledge, a greater participation by the knower of the object known, thus more powerfully influencing him” [pg. 631]. The stronger term meaning full knowledge that implies salvation is used, when the weaker term was available.

The NASB renders epignosis as “real knowledge” in Phil. 1:9, and “true knowledge” in 2 Pet. 1:3, 8.

Some try (as usual) to present them as unsaved in the first place or they say that their life here (this side of Heaven) is worse because they forsook truth but they were still saved in the end. Nice thought but sorry - they backslid and unless they got saved (again) they went to Hades. I hope they had some good campmeeting services on their calendar Smile
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Post Re: 2 Peter 2:20-22 Ventureforth
spartanfan wrote:
Some try (as usual) to present them as unsaved in the first place or they say that their life here (this side of Heaven) is worse because they forsook truth but they were still saved in the end. Nice thought but sorry - they backslid and unless they got saved (again) they went to Hades. I hope they had some good campmeeting services on their calendar Smile


Spartafan, not a bad argument. This is except that you seem to have made an assumption about my position. Smile
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7/10/15 8:39 pm


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Post Re: 2 Peter 2:20-22 spartanfan
Ventureforth wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
Some try (as usual) to present them as unsaved in the first place or they say that their life here (this side of Heaven) is worse because they forsook truth but they were still saved in the end. Nice thought but sorry - they backslid and unless they got saved (again) they went to Hades. I hope they had some good campmeeting services on their calendar Smile


Spartafan, not a bad argument. This is except that you seem to have made an assumption about my position. Smile


Actually no - there was no indication of your "personal position" but I assumed that you wanted me to proceed with a defense of my traditional CoG position that someone who is saved can become apostate/backslide. But my statements were not directed at you or anyone else. Sorry if it appeared that way.
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