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Loran Livingston: I believe in Eternal Security
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Post Loran Livingston: I believe in Eternal Security doyle
Life sure is changing and FAST. A couple of weeks ago, the Southern Baptists decided that they would allow Speaking In Tongues in their churches overseas. And, now the pastor of one of the largest COG congregations, says publicly, "I believe in Eternal Security."

Eddie first posted the link in a thread "Do you agree?" We brought the link here with a different heading, not to take away from his thread, but because COG ministers saying they believe in Eternal Security, is an amazing turn of events.

Link to Loran's statement: http://player.subsplash.com/81d9c5c
Link to Eddie's post: http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?t=82736
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Last edited by doyle on 6/24/15 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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6/19/15 5:17 pm


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Post Good for Loran Purplebarney
I agree with him 100000000000%! If you really think about it then does it really make sense to believe a doctrine that basically says that if you make a mistake or sin that you are going to hell? That if someone cuts you off on the highway on a Tuesday afternoon and you say a word you shouldn't say or you show them the one finger salute and it just so happens that the rapture happens 30 seconds after you do that then you're destined for hell? That is unless in those 30 seconds you somehow pray the "Sinners Prayer." In that case you barely made it! Then of course there are those who will say that my example isn't really what they mean by their doctrine. Well, where do you draw the line on sin? Are some sins ok? Rapture proof? I just don't believe God gave us this precious gift of salvation and eternal life that is ONLY available to perfect Christians or Christians who are somehow able to ask God for forgiveness during that 30 seconds between the sin and the sinner's prayer while driving down the highway on a Tuesday afternoon.

Thats my 3 cents!
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6/19/15 8:31 pm


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Post Re: Good for Loran spartanfan
Purplebarney wrote:
I agree with him 100000000000%! If you really think about it then does it really make sense to believe a doctrine that basically says that if you make a mistake or sin that you are going to hell? That if someone cuts you off on the highway on a Tuesday afternoon and you say a word you shouldn't say or you show them the one finger salute and it just so happens that the rapture happens 30 seconds after you do that then you're destined for hell? That is unless in those 30 seconds you somehow pray the "Sinners Prayer." In that case you barely made it! Then of course there are those who will say that my example isn't really what they mean by their doctrine. Well, where do you draw the line on sin? Are some sins ok? Rapture proof? I just don't believe God gave us this precious gift of salvation and eternal life that is ONLY available to perfect Christians or Christians who are somehow able to ask God for forgiveness during that 30 seconds between the sin and the sinner's prayer while driving down the highway on a Tuesday afternoon.

Thats my 3 cents!


From reading your post it appears that you believe that if you miss the rapture then you are "destined for hell?" So you don't believe someone can get saved after Rapture takes place? That is a strange doctrine to me. What about "these are they which have come out of great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb?"
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6/19/15 8:38 pm


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Post Cojak
My wife tells m that Loran is saying what I have said for years. My sons are part of my family. No matter what they say or do, they are still my sons. If my wife who has been COG (died in the wool) all her life saved at 6 and as far as I know has never broken her covenant with our Lord, says she agrees with the video Eddie posted, then I'm on her side.. Cool
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6/19/15 11:47 pm


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Post Not that it matters... Brandon Bohannon
But I agree with Loran Livingston. Both Arminianism and Calvinism are flawed. I hate being labeled Arminian. I am not a Universalist nor do I believe that I can just lose the Salvation that Jesus purchased for me. I would have to consciously choose to reject Jesus Christ and to walk away from Him. This is not the same thing as committing a sin or omitting a work He has called me to do. I confess my sins to Him. He has, is and will forgive me of my sins. He convicts me but I am no longer condemned. As I grow in Him he has, is and will sanctify me. Galatians 2:20 becomes sweeter and more personal every day. Truth is, Pastor Loran's beliefs do not violate our Declaration of Faith even if they do violate what has been traditionally espoused from a majority of our pulpits. It is dangerous to cheapen the Grace of God and it is equally dangerous to limit it as well. We have much to learn! The wisest among us is still but a toddler compared to our Lord and King.
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6/20/15 12:02 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
The ole timer read/heard sommers that several years ago LL took a class or two at Reformed Theological Seminary. It was after his experience with RTS that the affinity toward Eternal Security. Acts-pert Poster
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6/20/15 12:24 am


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Post Vehemently opposed...... spartanfan
I for one am vehemently opposed to the ES and OSAS false doctrine and believe that teaching those things is extremely dangerous and damaging to the body of Christ.

From the StateMaster encyclopedia http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Church-of-God-(Cleveland,-Tennessee)

Theology
Theologically, the Church of God is Wesleyan/Arminian. That is, it is "committed to the Wesleyan/Pentecostal interpretation of Scripture" - according to the Church of God Theological Seminary. As such, conditional security of believers is taught (as opposed to eternal security), Holiness, and Full Gospel Pentecostalism - the belief that the baptism and gifts of the Holy Spirit, as recorded in the New Testament (beginning in the book of Acts), are still just as much in operation today as they were almost 2,000 years ago, and available to all believers today. Though generally committed to Wesleyanism/Arminianism, there are some Calvinist and moderate Calvinist ministers in the denomination; however their numbers are few and have not affected the doctrinal direction of the church in any meaningful way. Although Church of God doctrine, per se, does not establish a Wesleyan/Arminian position, it is still the case that in the United States, traditionally and historically, the Church of God has been Wesleyan/Arminian. The general teachings and theology of the church have not changed significantly since its foundation, and have been regularly affirmed at the General Assembly of the Church of God, the biennial convention of the denomination.
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Post Nature Boy Florida
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
The ole timer read/heard sommers that several years ago LL took a class or two at Reformed Theological Seminary. It was after his experience with RTS that the affinity toward Eternal Security.


I don't think so.

He has dealt openly in the pulpit with it since the 80s - and I have the cassette tapes to prove it. This is absolutely nothing new. He just has always had a problem believing that a 80 year old saint - in a moment of sickness or weakened faith could say or do something and God would cut them out right at the end.

And I agree with him.
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Post Eddie Robbins
Tom is correct....of course. Acts-pert Poster
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Post I follow Jesus christ and God! 4golf
Last time I checked Loran is not God! This is why it is a danger to follow preachers and denomanations! 1 Corinthians 6 deals with this! Romans 6 and Romans 7 deals with this. Paul said if you are still a "Slave" to sin. That means if the Word of God tells you not to do it and you are still wrapped up in it, a daily "Practice" you are either not saved or you have backslidden and will go to hell. See what Loran and others her should be talking about is how sin no longer brings sham on people. When I left the Church of God I was asked to preach in another denomanaion that , I didn't know, believed that once you are saved you no longer sin, which is worse than; "Once saved Always Saved! I had a long talk with a leader of that denomanaion and "Plainly" pointed out how flawed and Biblical wrong that was. His answer then was; Well that is what we have always believed. With that I handed him my lisence and walked out. It is the same with Baptist and the Holy Spirit. They don't read or preach certain books and scriptures in Gods Word, which tells me right away they are not God called preachers! If people would just read the Word of God Foolish arguments, like this would not even be decused by people who claim to be Gods sheppards and people who claim to be mature in their faith. I tell people who was Romans written to? Who was Corinthians written to? The church.
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Post Re: I follow Jesus christ and God! Nature Boy Florida
4golf wrote:
Last time I checked Loran is not God! This is why it is a danger to follow preachers and denomanations! 1 Corinthians 6 deals with this! Romans 6 and Romans 7 deals with this. Paul said if you are still a "Slave" to sin. That means if the Word of God tells you not to do it and you are still wrapped up in it, a daily "Practice" you are ... not saved...


Loran would totally agree with you... as do I. You aren't saved.

To those that believe in eternal security, you never were saved or this wouldn't have happened.
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Post Interesting for those who escape and then go back. COGLite
2 Peter 219 They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. 20 And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: A dog returns to its vomit. And another says, A washed pig returns to the mud. Friendly Face
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Post Brandon Bohannon
The conversation for many really hinges upon whether or not we believe that our names are blotted out and/or rewritten every time we commit or omit a(n) sin/act? This leads to a follow-up question of how many sins/acts committed or omitted before we are blotted out?

By-and-large we have taught this topic out of tradition and not from the balance of Scripture. I affirm that I do not know it all. Neither do you. We are at best, toddlers compared to our Father.

I do know that I am thankful for the Advocate. I am thankful for the Guide and Teacher. I am thankful for the Savior. I am thankful for conviction and not condemnation. Sincere people taught me condemnation. I lived defeated, condemned and enslaved to guilt and shame as a youth inside of the church. The Scripture and Holy Spirit taught me abundant life, conviction of sin and freedom from guilt and shame.

I realize that some must be saved with fire and others with love. Perhaps some of us need to feel "bound" to be free. Around some of our brethren I too feel bound. I am thankful that I never feel enslaved by Jesus. Again, I am neither Arminian or Calvinist. Give me Jesus! Better theologians than any of us have argued this point adnauseum without consensus. Our Declaration of Faith does not support or prohibit either view. I remember being "shocked" to hear that our own PTS had Pentecostal Calvinist among the professors. Dr. Land, one of my favorites, is unapologetically Arminian in apologetics.

There will be no Arminians or Calvinists in heaven. There will only be sons and daughters. The fruit says that Loran is a son and our brother. Agree or disagree. To merely say that one believes that ones salvation has been eternally secured by Jesus Christ is not heresy.
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Post Is this spot sin? Ernie Long
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
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Post Balance Brandon Bohannon
Romans 3:23-26
Isaiah 64:6
Ephesians 2:8-10

And the one that really gets us...

James 4:17

White flag!!! Christian Perfection takes a hit!
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Post No Rick Flair! 4golf
One of my favorite quote is in the movie; "sweet Home Alabama"! You can't ride two horses with one butt. that is the clean verison. You cannot take part of of, like Baptist and Loran is trying to do and discount the rest! How can God remove your name in the Lambs Book if it was not in there to start with. What about Hebrews 6. To argure with those two tells me people want to beleieve what they want to believe and discount what Gods Word truly says! I no longer waste time on people who are foolish to argue with Black and red ink on white paper. It is a pride issue and you "Cannot" EVER win a battle with a prideful person! That is why Jesus list in His first teaching the number one thing a child of His MUST have is a Meek , humble spirit. Meek does not mean weakness, but it means a teachable!
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Post Quiet Wyatt
What Loran is saying he doesn't believe is what I would call 'eternal INsecurity,' which may have been believed by some in the CoG, but which the CoG itself has never officially believed, the idea that you can accidentally lose your salvation, that a mistake is the same thing as willful sin, etc. While the CoG certainly has a Wesleyan-Arminian heritage theologically, neither Wesley himself nor any other important theologian in the Arminian tradition ever taught the kind of flimsy 'salvation' which Livingston criticizes and mocks in his straw-man representation of the Arminian view. What Arminian theologians have historically emphasized is that turning back to a lifestyle of willful sin/unbelief will result in your damnation unless you turn back to God for forgiveness and restoration before you die.

Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 6/20/15 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post Quiet Wyatt
It should also be noted that LL is quite definitely a Calvinist who believes salvation is based exclusively in the eternal choice of God to unilaterally save the ones He has specifically chosen to save. His affirmation of the unconditional eternal security of the elect is perfectly logical given his Calvinism. Acts-perienced Poster
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Post Re: Is this spot sin? Quiet Wyatt
Ernie Long wrote:
Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Timothy 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Amen. I think most seem to confuse sanctification with spiritual growth. While they are related, they are not identical. Even Jesus (whom we all agree was sinless) grew in wisdom and in stature, the grace of God being upon Him.
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6/20/15 11:33 am


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Post 4Golf...... Purplebarney
Baptist preachers are not "God called" preachers?? REALLY????? This smells sooooo bad my friend. It smells of elitism and selfishness. If you seriously think that Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Andy Stanley, and Dr. Jack Graham are not "God called" preachers then I want NOTHING to do with your religion or denomination. This simply goes back to something I've always had issues with.....pentecostals and charismatic preachers who think that they are the ONLY ones who preach the whole Bible and are better than non-pentecostal and charismatic preachers. I would actually laugh at that if it weren't so sad. I've said it before and I'll say it again......Heaven will be populated by pentecostals, charismatics, baptists, methodists, catholics, and every other denomination as long as they are believers and followers of Christ. "not God called preachers"????? WOW!

Eddie....you better get out of your "not of God church" and away from your "not called of God" pastor!
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