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Are there MORAL/BEHAVIORAL standards for Christians?
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Post Re: Brad.... bradfreeman
Aaron Scott wrote:
I hear you.

And you know that I love and admire you. Further, I am convinced that you have a message for us...and that is that God's grace is deeper, wider, and more vast than we know.

We ought to give heed to that.

At the same time, there is a problem with OSAS...which is the natural destination of your particular take....

Quote:
(Revelation 3:5 KJV) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels
.

Jesus is speaking to the church.

Further, He is speaking to those whose names DO appear in the Book of Life.

And yet it apparently is DEPENDENT on being an overcomer!

Would He even make such a statement if it was impossible that He would do it?

Quote:
(2 Peter 2:20 KJV) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

(2 Peter 2:21 KJV) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

(2 Peter 2:22 KJV) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Consider that the latter end of NOT KNOWING CHRIST AT ALL...is to go to hell.

If we are again entangled, it is EVEN WORSE than going to hell.

There is no way for that to make sense in any universe where are person actually goes to heaven--for that would mean that heaven was worse than hell!

But Peter says that it HAS HAPPENED.

Quote:
(Revelation 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


I can see a way around some of these things. You might argue that SOME of the fearful...SOME of the abominable, etc....but we are stopped at the fact that ALL LIARS shall have their part in the Lake of Fire.

So that means that a Christian CANNOT be a liar, right? (I do not mean that one has never lied...but that one practices lying.)

OK, I know the way around this. You can claim that God does not impute sin, etc. Fine. But if you are a liar, whether sin is imputed or not, you are a liar...and ALL LIARS shall have their part in the Lake of Fire.

As much as I believe that grace is indeed richer and deeper than we have imagined--and we should preach that, so that dear souls are not left in guilt and condemnation--I also cannot escape the fact that, at least for me, there is simply no way around the fact that SOME BELIEVERS have fallen away.


Thanks man.

Let me be as clear as I can: I AM NOT OSAS!

We are saved by grace through faith.
The only way out is rejecting your faith in Christ...period.
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My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
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5/30/15 8:57 pm


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Post Well, then... Aaron Scott
Wouldn't living in adultery be the same as rejecting your faith in Christ?

In other words, is there ANY EVIDENCE that a person has rejected their faith in God outside of believing what they say?

I mean, they COULD be lying about rejecting their faith in Christ...and not actually having rejected their faith in Christ...they could still be saved, right?

(Of course, I'm being facetious. But at some point, there has to be some sign of salvation or not, right?)

Quote:
(Acts 26:19 KJV) Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
(Acts 26:20 KJV) But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.


Every evidence in scripture is that there is some sign of salvation. It might be baptism. It might be Zacchaeus' desire to give to the poor. It certainly got God's attention that Cornelius' had been prayerful and given alms.
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5/30/15 9:19 pm


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Post bradfreeman
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Aaron - I am on neither side of the debate here, primarily because I think the wrong question was asked.

I do think we can expect altered behavior as the result of being born again. To say that changed behavior is not in accordance with God's expressed grace toward us is leaving out half the gospel message. And this is true certainly as Paul would see it, for to suggest that life in the (Holy) Spirit, wrought through the death of Christ, has no power to alter our behavior misses the point entirely.

The following is not a proof text, only one example. I think it has been posted on several occasions.

Please note: (1) the contrast between what they "were" and what they "are." (2) That contrast, like it or not, is referenced, at least in part, by a change in "behavior."

Ephesians 4:1729 (NASB95)
17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
25 Therefore, laying aside falsehood, SPEAK TRUTH EACH ONE of you WITH HIS NEIGHBOR, for we are members of one another.
26 BE ANGRY, AND yet DO NOT SIN; do not let the sun go down on your anger,
27 and do not give the devil an opportunity.
28 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.


Who wouldn't like a change in behavior? Laughing

We want His kingdom to come and His will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven!
Paul is encouraging believers to allow a renewed mind to result in the new man being revealed or "put on". This is how we get to the "therefore" in v. 25. Our gospel has power! But it works from the inside out.

We only "work out" what He "works in" us. There is no holiness but His holiness. We don't work up our own version of holiness, He gives it to us...we are partakers of His holiness.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
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5/31/15 8:06 am


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Post Re: Eddie... Randy Johnson
Aaron Scott wrote:
And how would you know if a person WERE living that way?


I read this entire thread before answering.

I think the answer here is: "It's none of your business."

Paul gave a description in Romans 1 of the moral degeneration of the human race when they rejected the knowledge of God. He described sins in that passage that are at the center of moral outrage and debate today.

However, he did not make the list in order to glamorize the sins, shock Christians, or give us a list of actions to judge people by.

On the contrary, he enumerated that progression in order to make the point in Romans 2 that NONE OF US have the right to judge other people for their behavior. The only one who has the right to make such judgments is God Himself, because His judgment is the only judgment based on absolute truth and absolute righteousness and holiness. Our judgment is faulty because we are faulty in our natural selves.

Paul's definition of love in 1 Corinthians 13 does not include sentimenalism or mere human emotion. Love is defined by actions.

- Love is patient
- Love is kind
- Love does not boast

etc.,

The problem isn't with the Scriptural definition of love which fulfills the Law, it is with our inadequate understanding of love as a feeling or as a desire prompted by a feeling. Genuine love is always practical and leads to actions.
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5/31/15 7:44 pm


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Post Randy... Aaron Scott
Quote:
"It's none of your business."


Yet the Bible speaks of knowing those who labor among us.

Yet the Apostles point out people and behaviors that are out of fellowship with God.

Yet the Bible makes it clear that by their fruits you will know them.

None of our business?

I would imagine that if someone is coming to minister at my church, if someone is going to be in a leadership position, and so on, then far from it being none of my business, it is PRECISELY my business.

Now, there are a million things I cannot truly know about a person. There could be people who are being deceptive and secretive, for instance. But would you even PRAY about having a minister at your church who is living in open adultery?

OF COURSE NOT!

So you made it your business, right? There was something there that indicated that that person was not in correct fellowship with God.

Again, we can't fully know the heart. But if out of the heart the mouth speaks...if out of the heart certain behaviors are visible, then while we cannot know everything about that person, we can certainly discern some valuable information.

Very simply, the entire thread is about are there BEHAVIORS and ACTIONS that gives evidence of a life lived for Jesus...or not lived for Jesus? While many of our gauges are faulty and biased, while many times people slip in under our radar, there are plenty of times when we all can see behavior that is contrary to the Christian life.

Some things are MANIFEST. If we see it clearly, we should refuse it.


Quote:
(Galatians 5:19 KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

(Galatians 5:20 KJV) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

(Galatians 5:21 KJV) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
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6/1/15 4:45 am


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Post Need to bump Aaron Scott
Had some questions for Randy Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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6/1/15 6:53 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Good responses, Aaron. The whole "Judge not" thing is routinely taken out of context and made to say what Jesus never said, in context. Acts-perienced Poster
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6/1/15 6:58 pm


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Post sorry I am late to the game but... wayne
"A true Christian will be spiritually productive."

This board has become a lot like what is heard in churches these days. Great ideas are given and true questions are posed but like in church there are those who constantly overthink, overspiritualize or just simply blow off what is being said. This is why church and even this board run so many people off.

There are those who seek to do what they feel God is calling them to do. God does still deal with men and women about the Harvest. A true Christian will listen to what God is telling them and be productive. Enjoy their walk with God, spread the gospel, feed the hungry, take care of the widows, worry about the beam in your own eye and simply follow after God.

Aaron, True Christians are happy people and signs and wonders do follow them.
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6/2/15 7:33 am


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Post Randy Johnson
Am I under the gun here?

I've been busy for the past few days. My oldest son has been in hospital care for two weeks due to complications related to recent intense seizures he experienced. So I have been away from the board and I'm tired right now because it's late, but I will get back to this.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.
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6/2/15 10:13 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Randy Johnson wrote:
Am I under the gun here?

I've been busy for the past few days. My oldest son has been in hospital care for two weeks due to complications related to recent intense seizures he experienced. So I have been away from the board and I'm tired right now because it's late, but I will get back to this.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.


Praying for your son, Randy!
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6/2/15 10:14 pm


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Post Re: Randy... Randy Johnson
Aaron Scott wrote:
Quote:
"It's none of your business."


Yet the Bible speaks of knowing those who labor among us.


Jesus said to watch out for false prophets. A prophet is someone who speaks for God. Jesus said by their (the supposed prophet's) fruit we would know them (know who the false prophets are). That is a different matter entirely from judging fellow believers in general and deciding whether we believe they are saved or not. We don't have that authority, and that is what I was referring to when I said, "It's none of your business".

Paul made it very clear that we are not to judge our brothers or sisters in Christ. He didn't qualify it, he didn't make exceptions. We simply do not have that authority. Paul even went as far as to say that he did not judge himself. He said his conscience was clear (he could not think of anything he was guilty of), but even having a clear conscience did not make him innocent before God, it was the Lord who judged him, not himself and not any other human being.

Your initial statement to Eddie about "How would we know..." was about Christians in general, not the false prophets (those who claimed to speak for God) whom Jesus warned us about.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
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6/6/15 10:18 pm


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Post Randy... Aaron Scott
Well, what would mark you even think they are a false prophet? They don't come with name tags, right? Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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6/7/15 6:30 am


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Post Re: Randy... Randy Johnson
Aaron Scott wrote:
Well, what would mark you even think they are a false prophet? They don't come with name tags, right?


They come claiming to speak for God, and by claiming to speak for God, they try to get other people to follow their instructions supposedly from God. As Paul warned the Ephesian elders, "they distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after themselves".

These are the people Jesus' warned us to beware of, and who he was talking about when he said, 'by their fruits you will know them". He wasn't talking about your average working-class person who doesn't claim to be a spokesman for God. He was referring to a very specific group of individuals.

God does not call us to divide people into categories and make judgements about them.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
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6/7/15 10:22 pm


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