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Drs. Land and Williams on Spiritual Warfare (Excellent) (L)

 
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Post Drs. Land and Williams on Spiritual Warfare (Excellent) (L) Quiet Wyatt
http://vimeo.com/116201970

Dr. Mark Williams and Dr. Steve Land discuss many things that have been discussed on Actscelerate recently--are they reading this forum, perhaps?

The 15 minutes it takes you to watch this video will be well spent.

I am greatly anticipating their follow-up session to this!
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1/9/15 10:57 pm


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Post Meat Word 4golf
Any time you hear Dr. Mark Williams you will get the "MEAT" of the Word of God! I could not imagine sitting under him for years, the depth of the Word of God you would get! Great Word!
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1/10/15 8:29 am


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Post One other thing. 4golf
Dr Land lost me when he said; Poor Apostle Paul didn't know the secret to Spiritual warfare! Just rebuke it and not receive it! I have heard that before and just rebuking sickness don't "ALWAYS" lead to it going away! I have heard that before and that is not sound doctrine! I wonder id Apostle paul right before they where about to cut his head off said; I rebuke that axe, it don't have the power to cut off my head! Sometimes bad things happen to good, Godly people who walk in "True" holiness! To always try to give a explanation and a reason is futile! No body much today wants to say; "I don't know why things are happening"!! I am walking with God and His Word, but things happen, we live in a fallen world and we will never know until we walk into heaven! I would love to hear more Pentecostals say that than trying to give a excat answer!
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1/10/15 8:40 am


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Post Change Agent
So we have one that says that Dr. Land does not portray sound doctrine. Is this an attack on a COG official? What does OTCP have to say on the part about rebuking sickness? Dr. Land speaks a little like what Brad would say.

Does the COG believe "some" of the WOF message?

Why would Dr. Mark Wiliams want Dr. Land on his program if he thought his doctrine was out of line?

My personal opinion is that this video is wonderful.
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1/10/15 11:35 am


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Post Re: One other thing. Quiet Wyatt
4golf wrote:
Dr Land lost me when he said; Poor Apostle Paul didn't know the secret to Spiritual warfare! Just rebuke it and not receive it! I have heard that before and just rebuking sickness don't "ALWAYS" lead to it going away! I have heard that before and that is not sound doctrine! I wonder id Apostle paul right before they where about to cut his head off said; I rebuke that axe, it don't have the power to cut off my head! Sometimes bad things happen to good, Godly people who walk in "True" holiness! To always try to give a explanation and a reason is futile! No body much today wants to say; "I don't know why things are happening"!! I am walking with God and His Word, but things happen, we live in a fallen world and we will never know until we walk into heaven! I would love to hear more Pentecostals say that than trying to give a excat answer!


Dr. Land was definitely not saying he believed the apostle Paul didn't know 'the secret' to spiritual warfare, and that he should have just rebuked the thorn in the flesh and not 'received' it. He was stating that that is what some today hold to. (He didn't say 'Word of Faith teachers' or 'prosperity' preachers, but those are precisely to whom he was referring).


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/10/15 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/10/15 11:42 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
Dr Land lost me when he said; Poor Apostle Paul didn't know the secret to Spiritual warfare! Just rebuke it and not receive it!


I'm not sure if you would classify that as sarcasm or hyperbole, but Dr. Land was not saying he believed it could just be rebuked and not received. You could say he was pointing out the shallowness of those who think they way. In other words, they are not, in Dr. Land's description, taking into account the reality of the various levels of spiritual warfare and how they impact our lives. He definitely was not indicting Paul nor promoting "name it, claim it."
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1/10/15 12:00 pm


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Post bonnie knox
oops. I was reviewing the tape and typing my response while Quiet Wyatt was typing his. I didn't mean to sound like an echo. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/10/15 12:03 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Is there an echo in here? Wink Acts-perienced Poster
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1/10/15 1:31 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Seriously though, I appreciate the mutual confirmation, Bonnie! Acts-perienced Poster
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1/10/15 1:33 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Change Agent wrote:
So we have one that says that Dr. Land does not portray sound doctrine. Is this an attack on a COG official? What does OTCP have to say on the part about rebuking sickness? Dr. Land speaks a little like what Brad would say.

Does the COG believe "some" of the WOF message?

Why would Dr. Mark Wiliams want Dr. Land on his program if he thought his doctrine was out of line?


Being one of a few Acts voices (along with several others) that denounces the excess and dangers of hyper-faith/WOF theology, I just watched the entire episode and am more than happy to respond to Change Agent's query (where he references 4Golf’s post) directed to me personally.

1. Dr. Land speaks nothing like Brad!

2. Dr. Land is Wesleyan/Pentecostal to the core, embracing not a hint of WOF doctrine. I know Dr. Land, I have spent the night in his home. I was on the campus of PTS the day he came to class, passed out from sheer exhaustion and had to be taken off the campus because he was pastoring, in the dissertation stage of his PhD and teaching at PTS.

3. Listen/watch the segment again, in no way is Dr. Land promoting Woffie teaching. His words are spoken to describe how some people (he didn't specify who, but it is evident he means woffie theology) try to engage life. He is using the same type of linguistic device used by Elijah on Mt. Carmel when he lightly addresses the false prophets and tells them perhaps their god is on a journey.

4. Dr. Land, in denouncing this type of theology, immediately gives illustration to the contrary. He states that when Paul wrestles with beasts at Ephesus, why didn’t he just rebuke it and not accept it. At that point, Mark Williams joins in agreement, pointing out the same thing in regard to Paul’s thorn in the flesh. No my fellow Actsceleraters, you can rest assured these two men are in no way advocating, promoting, encouraging or propagating WOF theology.

Now for the next question from Change Agent, “Does the COG believe "some" of the WOF message?”

1. There are some within the COG (some preachers, but many more laity) who most definitely believe “some” of the WOF message, and there are some who believe it all—yes, even some preachers.
2. Using terminology similar to that within Pentecostalism (but with different definitions), WOF teaching has made inroads into the COG. This is unfortunate, but true. The pastor must then become the mediator (via his teaching/preaching) between what is believed/perceived at the popular level and what the Scriptures teach.
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1/10/15 2:05 pm


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Post Listen to it again. 4golf
I went back and listen to it again and I din NOT hear Dr. land say that other believed that. All I heard is that he made what I stated he said. He may have made it in sarcasim remark, but you need to make your point CLEAR! All I know is what I heard. I do not know Dr. Land, just like a lot who will hear this and a lot will come away with the same conclusion I did!
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1/10/15 9:12 pm


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Post Re: Listen to it again. bonnie knox
4golf wrote:
I went back and listen to it again and I din NOT hear Dr. land say that other believed that. All I heard is that he made what I stated he said. He may have made it in sarcasim remark, but you need to make your point CLEAR! All I know is what I heard. I do not know Dr. Land, just like a lot who will hear this and a lot will come away with the same conclusion I did!


He starts a train of thought at about the 11:27 mark saying, "If I have the Holy Spirit why can't I just rebuke all of it?" He then proceeds to elaborate on the question. He is asking why couldn't Paul just rebuke what came against him. Why did Paul have to fight beasts at Ephesus? Why couldn't Paul have rebuked all the trouble that came against him listed in 2 Corinthians 4:7-9.
After setting up this question, then Dr. Land answers the question at about the 12:27 mark. He says that other beings whom God gave free will are in rebellion, therefore we are in a battle. That is why we can't merely rebuke it and it all be gone, he says.

I hope that helps provide some continuity of thought.
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1/10/15 9:46 pm


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Post Re: Listen to it again. Old Time Country Preacher
4golf wrote:
I went back and listen to it again and I din NOT hear Dr. land say that other believed that. All I heard is that he made what I stated he said. He may have made it in sarcasim remark, but you need to make your point CLEAR! All I know is what I heard. I do not know Dr. Land, just like a lot who will hear this and a lot will come away with the same conclusion I did!


He didn't say "this is what woffies or others believe," but the context confirms it.
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1/10/15 9:50 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
One thing I have noticed about Dr. Land is that he sometimes talks a bit too fast to be understood clearly, and sometimes his sarcasm is difficult to catch. I think both are just aspects of his personality. I think a transcript of these Faith Matters sessions would be helpful. Acts-perienced Poster
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1/12/15 10:59 am


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Post Change Agent
So no rebuking of evil spirits in the COG? Things have changed over the years. Rolling Eyes Acts Enthusiast
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1/12/15 1:10 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
In context, Dr. Land was simply and only saying that there are some things you can't just rebuke; you have to fight, like the wild beasts at Ephesus Paul fought, or endure with grace, like Paul's thorn in the flesh. He did not say or imply that we could never exert authority over demons. Acts-perienced Poster
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1/12/15 1:41 pm


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Post Link
I definitely believe there is a place for rebuking spirits. I think we all agree. Is that really what the video said?

Maybe he's reacting to some of the extremes that have been taught. There are people who have rented an airplane to fly around a mountain range rebuking the powers of the air. Do you have to get up there to rebuke them better or to cover more territory?

There are people who think you should rebuke all the spirits of murder out of a city and the murder goes away. Then they rebuke the spirit of alcoholism to make the alcoholism go away.

The weird thing to me is if people think there is a spirit, as in an individual demon, for any problem they can name. I heard someone rebuke the 'spirit of traffic jams.' If the traffic jams in Jakarta were spirits, I might just hit the pedal to the metal and drive through them like smoke.

If there is a spirit that causes people's arms to get cut, if the spirit goes away, won't the cut remain? It's like if you take a nail out of a tire, the hole is still in the tire. You need to patch up the cut or the tire. The cut needs to heal. The tire needs to be repaired. If the cut gets healed supernaturally, that's great. If it happens slower, that's fine, too.

Removing the demon from someone's live may not cure all their problems. If a pornography addict has a demonic stronghold and it gets rebuked off of him, he still has to choose not to look at pornography. If a drunkard has a demon that influences him and it gets cast off, he still needs to choose not to drink. And people in these situations need to grow steadily in the word, have daily encouragement and exhortation from believers, and to pray individually and corporately and receive prayer from others.

The way I figure it, there are people out there who are probably bad enough to kill people or steal your wallet even if there aren't any demons in town bothering them. I don't think this will get rid of crime even if it works. There is still the world and the flesh even if the devil were to go away for a while.

But Jesus said if an unclean spirit goes out of a man he walks through dry places seeking rest and finding none. Then he returns to the place and finds it empty swept and garnished. Then he gets seven others worse than himself and enters into the man again. It's a parable about that generation, but how would this work if you rebuke all the demons out of a city? So you rebuke the murder spirits out, and if the murder rate dips, what happens if the demons come back with reinforcements?

One of the passages used about spiritual warfare is about pulling down strongholds, but Paul's talking about casting down imaginations and every high thought that exalts itself against the knowledge of Christ. Paul went around preaching and teaching, talking, and reasoning with people, and he'd present them the word of God. That's how he cast down imaginations, with the word of God, not with yelling at demons.

I believe preaching and teaching the word are 'spiritual warfare', too.
Another warning on this comes from Jude and II Peter 2. The false brethren and false teachers are not afraid to blaspheme/speak evil of dignitaries. The example Jude gives of this is Satan. Michael is more powerful than Satan, but doesn't bring a railing accusation against him before the Lord, but says, "The Lord rebuke you." Yet the false teachers aren't afraid to blaspheme dignitaries.

I'm not saying that everyone in the spiritual warfare movement is a false brother or anything like that. But it is interesting that the ones in the Bible who were outspoken in their verbal attacks against such beings were these wicked men, and we shouldn't imitate their example. Even in talking to Satan, we need to have some limitations. Michael did.

Jesus rebuked the Devil with scripture and said to Peter, 'Get thee behind Me Satan.'
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1/14/15 1:02 am


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Dr. Land didn't say there was never a place/time/incident/etc to rebuke spirits, he was speaking of specific instances. Acts-pert Poster
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1/14/15 3:06 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
He is using the same type of linguistic device used by Elijah on Mt. Carmel when he lightly addresses the false prophets and tells them perhaps their god is on a journey.


Good analogy, ole timer.
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1/14/15 12:52 pm


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