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Where does Bible say God changed His mind on tithing?
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Post Re: why use the bible at all? Ernie Long
wayne wrote:
Seriously, I've heard all the arguments on this site about scripture and to be honest all I hear is that the bible is either out dated or it simply does not apply to us. Truly, using the logic I hear here to debate scripture - I am left to believe that scripture does not apply to me in 2014 at all.
None of it was written to us- right? It was writtent to jews, greeks, corinthians, galatians, the church at asia, etc? If this is truly the stance of those debating here, then really the bible does not apply at all? And, if the bible does not apply then does Jesus truly apply?

We don't have to tithe, we don't have to worry about sin, we don't have to go to church, the bible is useless, the Church of God is of the devil...... the list goes on and on. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Very dangerous slippery slope here.



I agree that the church does seem to be on a slippery slope and those that are called to preach the truth are the ones supplying the soap.
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Post Re: why use the bible at all? Resident Skeptic
wayne wrote:
Seriously, I've heard all the arguments on this site about scripture and to be honest all I hear is that the bible is either out dated or it simply does not apply to us. Truly, using the logic I hear here to debate scripture - I am left to believe that scripture does not apply to me in 2014 at all.
None of it was written to us- right? It was writtent to jews, greeks, corinthians, galatians, the church at asia, etc? If this is truly the stance of those debating here, then really the bible does not apply at all? And, if the bible does not apply then does Jesus truly apply?

We don't have to tithe, we don't have to worry about sin, we don't have to go to church, the bible is useless, the Church of God is of the devil...... the list goes on and on. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Very dangerous slippery slope here.


No the Bible is not outdated at all. What's outdated is the false doctrine you hold to that you refuse to even try to prove Biblically. If you care to show us in the Bible where God ever told anyone to tithe monetary income, we'll be happy to listen.
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Post Troy Hamby
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be truly blessed if I don't.


Last edited by Troy Hamby on 5/23/14 10:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Resident Skeptic
Troy Hamby wrote:
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be blessed if I don't.


I do not doubt your experience, but do we build doctrine on experience or on the bible?
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Post Troy Hamby
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Troy Hamby wrote:
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be blessed if I don't.


I do not doubt your experience, but do we build doctrine on experience or on the bible?


well, John Wesley did consider experience a pivotal part of coming to a theological conclusion. Taking his quadrilateral, if you considered scripture, tradition, reason and experience, tithing would seem to be a normative part of the Christian life.
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5/23/14 10:12 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Troy Hamby wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Troy Hamby wrote:
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be blessed if I don't.


I do not doubt your experience, but do we build doctrine on experience or on the bible?


well, John Wesley did consider experience a pivotal part of coming to a theological conclusion. Taking his quadrilateral, if you considered scripture, tradition, reason and experience, tithing would seem to be a normative part of the Christian life.


And when did this tradition of tithing in the church start? I believe Wesley was speaking from the standpoint of the inner witness that one has been saved, not tithing. We have people right here on this board questioning people's salvation if they don't so called "tithe". We cannot make a salvation issue out of tradition. I've challenged tithe teachers on this board to show in the bible where God instituted or commanded compulsory giving of ten percent of monetary income before, during or after the Law. So far all I hear are crickets chirping on that one.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
The evidence shows that Wesley did not teach 'tithing'. He makes some very plain statements that the Christian should never limit his giving to any specific percentage. Acts-perienced Poster
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5/24/14 12:38 am


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Post Tracy S Hamilton
Resident Skeptic wrote:
Troy Hamby wrote:
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be blessed if I don't.


I do not doubt your experience, but do we build doctrine on experience or on the bible?


Sounds like he built it on the Bible... I guess people see it differently.
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Post John Stevenson
Brad Freeman said:
Quote:
Why would we do less that what the law requires? Because the law is bondage, shuts up faith, empowers sin, veils hearts and minds, opposes faith and ministers condemnation and death.


But the law came from God. So you are saying that God caused this bondage, that God shut up faith, that God empowered sin, that God opposed faith, that God ministered condemnation and even death?

God gave the Law. Jesus said in Matthew 5 that He didn't come to destroy the Law. So if He didn't destroy it then it still stands. He also said that until heaven and earth pass away, the Law still stands. Last I'd check heaven and earth was still standing.
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Post Resident Skeptic
John Stevenson wrote:
Brad Freeman said:
Quote:
Why would we do less that what the law requires? Because the law is bondage, shuts up faith, empowers sin, veils hearts and minds, opposes faith and ministers condemnation and death.


But the law came from God. So you are saying that God caused this bondage, that God shut up faith, that God empowered sin, that God opposed faith, that God ministered condemnation and even death?

God gave the Law. Jesus said in Matthew 5 that He didn't come to destroy the Law. So if He didn't destroy it then it still stands. He also said that until heaven and earth pass away, the Law still stands. Last I'd check heaven and earth was still standing.


So if the Law still stands in context you say, then why just single out tithing? Why not observe all 600 meticulous ordinances? and if we do still tithe we had better do it just as the Law prescribes which was NEVER money. else you are not following the Law.
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Post John Stevenson
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So if the Law still stands in context you say, then why just single out tithing? Why not observe all 600 meticulous ordinances? and if we do still tithe we had better do it just as the Law prescribes which was NEVER money. else you are not following the Law.


So we should ignore the honor your mother and father? Maybe we should ignore the "thou shall have no other gods before me". Let's just throw out the entire Old Testament since it doesn't apply today.

The problem is that to many people want to either make a blanket statement to cover everything or just pick & choose when it comes to the Old Testament. We have the same problem in the New Testament with grace vs law. Jesus had 3 different types of people that He dealt with. #1 was the lost, those that didn't know the way. #2 was the disciples, those that were learning the way. #3 was the Pharisees and other religious leaders that knew the way but refused to walk it.

Jesus shows great compassion to the first group. An example would be the woman at the well. The second group Jesus shows compassion but also judgement. Remember when He said to Peter "get thee behind me satan"? The third group Jesus is hardest on.

My point is this, when deciphering scripture you must always ask - who, what, where and why? Is this scripture for all of humanity, for the church, or just for a certain group of people such as the Israelites.
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Post Resident Skeptic
John Stevenson wrote:
Quote:
So if the Law still stands in context you say, then why just single out tithing? Why not observe all 600 meticulous ordinances? and if we do still tithe we had better do it just as the Law prescribes which was NEVER money. else you are not following the Law.


So we should ignore the honor your mother and father? Maybe we should ignore the "thou shall have no other gods before me". Let's just throw out the entire Old Testament since it doesn't apply today.

The problem is that to many people want to either make a blanket statement to cover everything or just pick & choose when it comes to the Old Testament. We have the same problem in the New Testament with grace vs law. Jesus had 3 different types of people that He dealt with. #1 was the lost, those that didn't know the way. #2 was the disciples, those that were learning the way. #3 was the Pharisees and other religious leaders that knew the way but refused to walk it.

Jesus shows great compassion to the first group. An example would be the woman at the well. The second group Jesus shows compassion but also judgement. Remember when He said to Peter "get thee behind me satan"? The third group Jesus is hardest on.

My point is this, when deciphering scripture you must always ask - who, what, where and why? Is this scripture for all of humanity, for the church, or just for a certain group of people such as the Israelites.


Brother the Bible is clear that the old covenant waxed old and passed away, and that we have a better covenant with better promises. In this covenant, God writes his laws on our hearts by his Spirit. it's not a bunch of rules. Rather, the very nature of Christ is our guide transforming our behavior from the inside out. I think it is safe to say that if I'm walking in the Spirit, i will honor my father and mother. We're not "throwing anything away".
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Post John Stevenson
Wether it's written on our hearts or written on stone tablets, if God says it then it's the rule! And if you truly believe we have a better covenant with better promises then you shouldn't be arguing that we shouldn't tithe but that because of the blessings we should give above and beyond the tithe. Makes perfect sense to me. The church in the book of Acts felt that way so much that they sold everything and gave it to the Apostles.
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5/26/14 8:29 pm


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Post Poimen
John Stevenson wrote:
Wether it's written on our hearts or written on stone tablets, if God says it then it's the rule! And if you truly believe we have a better covenant with better promises then you shouldn't be arguing that we shouldn't tithe but that because of the blessings we should give above and beyond the tithe. Makes perfect sense to me. The church in the book of Acts felt that way so much that they sold everything and gave it to the Apostles.


That's a tad overstated IMO because the law written on our hearts is the eternal and transcendent essence of the law, the revelation of God's character through the law -- which to them was an imposition & from the perspective of God who is holy, but to us is a living expression from the perspective of God who is love. Same law. Same lawgiver. Same God. Same essence. NOT the same covenant, nor the same details, or forms, etc.

That said, NT teaching should NOT insist on tithing. Rather it SHOULD insist on cheerful, generous, worshipful, and sometimes even sacrificial giving. Likewise, NT teaching would encourage faithful, systematic giving as a means of worship as well. Using the principle of the tenth can be a beneficial means to that end, though it is NOT an end unto itself.

It's not that we should encourage believers to do MORE than tithe. That's starting from the wrong premise -- though it may indeed work out that way in practice. Rather it's that we should encourage believers to give -- to give liberally, give cheerfully, give worshipfully, and (as able) give consistently as unto to God.

Whatever form that kind of giving takes, whether tithes as such or some other form and method, concerning the essence and nature of right giving, we can truly do no more than that: nor should we wish to do any less.

Any act, form, or method of giving that incorporates those NT principles and essence as a right basis or approach to giving will be honored and blessed by God. After all, He doesn't need our money, & He doesn't cash out of state check's in Heaven either. He wants us -- our hearts. And where our hearts are there our treasure will be also. Wink You get people to understand and live that, and their giving will take care of itself.
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Last edited by Poimen on 5/27/14 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post John Stevenson
I agree with you Poimen and I meant it to be more than a tad overstated. Why? Because what I hear from those that argue we don't have to pay tithes is this: we have a new and better covenant, we live under grace not law and we're so abundantly blessed that we don't even have to give a measly 10% to the church.

Meanwhile many pastors are working 40 plus hour work weeks at secular jobs plus putting in an additional 40 hours or more a week to the church and on top of it, many of those pastors are trying hard to find time to spend with their families. So I get more than a little upset when somebody wants to debate wether or not we should pay tithes. Tithes should be the minimum that is given.

I have also discovered that those that say we don't have to pay tithes are normally those that don't give anything or give very little to the local church and they are just trying to ease their own conscience.
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5/26/14 11:36 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
John Stevenson wrote:
Wether it's written on our hearts or written on stone tablets, if God says it then it's the rule! And if you truly believe we have a better covenant with better promises then you shouldn't be arguing that we shouldn't tithe but that because of the blessings we should give above and beyond the tithe. Makes perfect sense to me. The church in the book of Acts felt that way so much that they sold everything and gave it to the Apostles.


There never was a tithe on money. Your hermeneutics don't add up. If you're going to tithe, do it like the Bible says. Oh but wait. You have t be a Jew and a farmer and everything you tithe on can only be from the land of Israel.

You cannot continue a tithe that never existed in the first place.
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5/27/14 12:35 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
John Stevenson wrote:
I agree with you Poimen and I meant it to be more than a tad overstated. Why? Because what I hear from those that argue we don't have to pay tithes is this: we have a new and better covenant, we live under grace not law and we're so abundantly blessed that we don't even have to give a measly 10% to the church.

Meanwhile many pastors are working 40 plus hour work weeks at secular jobs plus putting in an additional 40 hours or more a week to the church and on top of it, many of those pastors are trying hard to find time to spend with their families. So I get more than a little upset when somebody wants to debate wether or not we should pay tithes. Tithes should be the minimum that is given.

I have also discovered that those that say we don't have to pay tithes are normally those that don't give anything or give very little to the local church and they are just trying to ease their own conscience.


That "measly ten percent" might not be allot to you brother, but that might be allot to a poor person. And you like so many others refuse to prove your theories using sound hermeneutics but rather attack the character of those who dare point out the emperor is wearing no clothes. I have news for you sir. It does not matter if some who question tithes are stingy. A doctrine can only be judged on its own merits, not on the giving habits of church members. The tithing system you refer to NEVER existed. How dare you impose it on others??
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5/27/14 12:41 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Poimen wrote:
John Stevenson wrote:
Wether it's written on our hearts or written on stone tablets, if God says it then it's the rule! And if you truly believe we have a better covenant with better promises then you shouldn't be arguing that we shouldn't tithe but that because of the blessings we should give above and beyond the tithe. Makes perfect sense to me. The church in the book of Acts felt that way so much that they sold everything and gave it to the Apostles.


That'd a tad overstated IMO because the law written on our hearts is the eternal and transcendent essence of the law, the revelation of God's character through the law -- which to them was an imposition & from the perspective of God who is holy, but to us is a living expression from the perspective of God who is love. Same law. Same lawgiver. Same God. Same essence. NOT the same covenant, nor the same details, or forms, etc.

That said, NT teaching should NOT insist on tithing. Rather it SHOULD insist on cheerful, generous, worshipful, and sometimes even sacrificial giving. Likewise, NT teaching would encourage faithful, systematic giving as a means of worship as well. Using the principle of the tenth can be a beneficial means to that end, though it is NOT an end unto itself.

It's not that we should encourage believers to do MORE than tithe. That's starting from the wrong premise -- though it may indeed work out that way in practice. Rather it's that we should encourage believers to give -- to give liberally, give cheerfully, give worshipfully, and (as able) give consistently as unto to God.

Whatever form that kind of giving takes, whether tithes as such or some other form and method, concerning the essence and nature of right giving, we can truly do no more than that: nor should we wish to do any less.

Any act, form, or method of giving that incorporates those NT principles and essence as a right basis or approach to giving will be honored and blessed by God. After all, He doesn't need our money, & He doesn't cash out of state check's in Heaven either. He wants us -- our hearts. And where our hearts are there our treasure will be also. Wink You get people to understand and live that, and their giving will take care of itself.


Amen
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Post awesome testiimony wayne
Troy Hamby wrote:
I've said it before but I'll say it again…I don't think the "spirit" of tithing is wrong, it's how it's taught that is wrong. If we're redeemed from the curse of the law under Christ, then WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW UNDER CHRIST, period!

With that being said, there have been times during my Christian life that I haven't given at least 10% to the cause of Christ…whether that be the local church, missions, etc. And although it appeared that I was being 'blessed' from all outside measures (raises/promotions/excess money), I never felt blessed. In fact, I went into more debt during these times than when I was a 'faithful tither'. I don't know if I have just been brainwashed or not but I always felt like I was being disobedient if I wasn't giving at least 10%.

So, when I began to give at least 10% again, my marriage improved, my home had peace, my career took off and I felt closer to God. Coincidence? I don't know…but I've made it a rule in my life that I will give at least 10% of my income to my church and causes that i think advance the cause of Christ no matter what. Not because I think i will be cursed if I don't' do it but because I don't think i will be truly blessed if I don't.


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totally agree Troy. Sounds like your belief in this system is based on a true relationship not just words. I have personally witnessed numerous blessings personally and have witnessed numerous blessings because of tithing.

I am a pastor of a church and I will be honest with you that I rarely teach tithing but on occassion I do(using the same scriptures that have been used/debated on this site a million times). We stress the giving part more than anything and we stress that God loves a cheerful giver which is why our congregation applauds or praises God when it's time to give. Those in our congregation who choose to follow this principle applied with other biblical financial teachings(also in the old testament) find that the promises listed in scripture still apply today.
I will honestly say to you that I don't only teach this principle but I live this principle. To me, 10% is the minimum and I often give very generously to the church I pastor and as a result, all my needs are met and then some. Blessings have come my way that really should not have and our church after 6 years in existence is doing very well and so are it's members.
Through this giving our church has been able to help numerous people, Indian tribes, a church in El-Salvador, Scotland, other missionary projects, the Church of God and it's various projects, etc. I am not trying to say look what we've done but saying look what this system has provided to God's children.
We tell our people to give if you want to give and if you don't want to give, keep the money in your pocket. Let me say, we have had more sinner people start giving the 10% and come back with awesome testimonies than not.

This teaching may be "old" testament but they still work and I have tons of proof.
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Post Re: why use the bible at all? wayne
Resident Skeptic wrote:
wayne wrote:
Seriously, I've heard all the arguments on this site about scripture and to be honest all I hear is that the bible is either out dated or it simply does not apply to us. Truly, using the logic I hear here to debate scripture - I am left to believe that scripture does not apply to me in 2014 at all.
None of it was written to us- right? It was writtent to jews, greeks, corinthians, galatians, the church at asia, etc? If this is truly the stance of those debating here, then really the bible does not apply at all? And, if the bible does not apply then does Jesus truly apply?

We don't have to tithe, we don't have to worry about sin, we don't have to go to church, the bible is useless, the Church of God is of the devil...... the list goes on and on. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Very dangerous slippery slope here.


No the Bible is not outdated at all. What's outdated is the false doctrine you hold to that you refuse to even try to prove Biblically. If you care to show us in the Bible where God ever told anyone to tithe monetary income, we'll be happy to listen.


Resient Skeptic,
The name you post under, tells me that no matter what scripture I use, you will debate it to the enth degree. You stated that I hold to a false doctrine and that i refuse to even try to prove these false doctrine's bibilically? Do you know me? What false doctrines do I hold to?
I have read scriptures, studied scriptures, taken numerous classes, taught many bible studies, pastored many people and I will admit, I don't know everything and truly cannot explain how everything the scriptures teach us truly works. All I know is, I have tested these systems and found that they work.
Yes, I tithe and have received numerous blessings from it. Yes, I still hold to the 10 commandments and find that it's a great foundation for knowing right and wrong. I remember the sabbath and keep it holy and believe that doing so keeps the rest of my week in order. I also, believe that giving does not stop with a tenth. I also believe that we are supposed to love one another, further the kingdom of God at all cost, feed the hungry, minister to the widows, etc. I also, believe that the same devil that tricked Adam and Eve in the garden is still tricking people today.

I also believe in Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain

The question I posed about "why use the bible at all" was because I hear numerous debates about this scritpure not being right and that scripture not being right, this book is outdated, etc. If, I were a newby who just happened on this site, I would think the bible is truly false. Using the logic that is used to debated scriptures on tithing can be used on most of what is written in the new testament and if we apply that logic everywhere there is no bible for us today.
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5/27/14 8:22 am


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