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Women as Ordained Bishops with full authority
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Post Poimen
Tom, if you could, what does "without hierarchy" mean there? Is it a denial of the headship of the husband over the wife? Is it a denial of the headship of the elders over the church?

Just trying to get an idea of what is intended by the contrasting use of complementary AND hierarchy. You'll no doubt understand, and hopefully forgive, my skepticism that such sounds like a witty way of more or less espousing egalitarianism. if that is the case I would not be interested in the book. BUT, if it is something different from that then my curiosity is peaked. Wink
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5/17/14 8:47 pm


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Post drmrc
I will vote YES

Mike Chapman
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5/17/14 10:17 pm


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Post Re: Are we so prepared to do something against the Word... JimmieDavis
[quote="roughridercog"]Using opinions, passions, human reasoning, and even the argument that other denominations are doing it. I'm not trying to argue, but this could begin us down a slippery slope and one is forced to wonder, "Where will it stop?"

Just thinking out loud.[/quote]

Slippery slope? Like ordaining homosexuals or some other nonsense, fear based excuse. I think the only thing men are really afraid of is not knowing how they could ever listen to a woman lead them. Most men who vote no hang their hat on two scriptures. Some dont even know two scriptures to support the antagonism.
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5/18/14 6:41 am


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Post krista
JimmieDavis wrote:
krista wrote:
Isn't "Punk" name-calling? I've been banned for less.


Waaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaa Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


I understand that the truth would hurt. To the minority I guess would make you resort to name-calling.
If your type were to get's it way, we'd be in big trouble as a Church.
The fact is, the majority is "In you way". Your 2%? We have nothing to worry about. Laughing Laughing Laughing
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5/18/14 2:49 pm


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Post JimmieDavis
krista wrote:
JimmieDavis wrote:
krista wrote:
Isn't "Punk" name-calling? I've been banned for less.


Waaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaa Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


I understand that the truth would hurt. To the minority I guess would make you resort to name-calling.
If your type were to get's it way, we'd be in big trouble as a Church.
The fact is, the majority is "In you way". Your 2%? We have nothing to worry about. Laughing Laughing Laughing



You can't disguise the utter fear that controls your life. And it's not the fear of God. We are not here for "our" way. We are trying to move the kingdom forward in spite of the fact that you are in the way. Thankfully only for a little while longer. Your tribe is shrinking. You sound skeered. Very Happy Very Happy Cool
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5/18/14 8:08 pm


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Post JimmieDavis
krista wrote:
JimmieDavis wrote:
krista wrote:
Isn't "Punk" name-calling? I've been banned for less.


Waaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaa Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


I understand that the truth would hurt. To the minority I guess would make you resort to name-calling.
If your type were to get's it way, we'd be in big trouble as a Church.
The fact is, the majority is "In you way". Your 2%? We have nothing to worry about. Laughing Laughing Laughing



You can't disguise the utter fear that controls your life. And it's not the fear of God. We are not here for "our" way. We are trying to move the kingdom forward in spite of the fact that you are in the way. Thankfully only for a little while longer. Your tribe is shrinking. You sound skeered. Very Happy Very Happy Cool
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5/18/14 8:13 pm


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Post krista
JimmieDavis wrote:
krista wrote:
JimmieDavis wrote:
krista wrote:
Isn't "Punk" name-calling? I've been banned for less.


Waaaaaa waaaaaaa waaaaa Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


I understand that the truth would hurt. To the minority I guess would make you resort to name-calling.
If your type were to get's it way, we'd be in big trouble as a Church.
The fact is, the majority is "In you way". Your 2%? We have nothing to worry about. Laughing Laughing Laughing



You can't disguise the utter fear that controls your life. And it's not the fear of God. We are not here for "our" way. We are trying to move the kingdom forward in spite of the fact that you are in the way. Thankfully only for a little while longer. Your tribe is shrinking. You sound skeered. Very Happy Very Happy Cool


Of course you are in it for "our" way. You drew the lines saying that people like me "are in your way". You've made it an "us vs them". The problem is, it that you see the seemingly bias of many here on Acts. It is an illusion. Because there are more standing in your way than what you might think.
If/ when you and your type have your way in the COG, that is the day the Church of God is in big trouble. You're why we are struggling today, because of people like you.
Not only that. The COG is what it is. If you think it's so bad and people like me are "in your way"...........go somewhere else that hold your views.
Would I join myself with the Roman Catholics and then decide " These people are in my way"? "We need to change the RC's"? No. I would find a place similar to my views. It's simple. Leave if you don't like it. Laughing Laughing
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5/19/14 11:35 am


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Post dolfan
I don't think the question of ordaining women is easy. It also cannot, in good conscience in my mind, separate us. It takes a bit of a flexible view of the practical commands of the New Testament to reach a place where one can comfortably assert the ordaining women is acceptable.


But, some of the practical commands are given with flexibility. Paul said that a bishop or elder should be married to one woman. Paul wasn't married and said he would have it that no unmarried Christian man sought a wife, if he had it his way. Which was it? Did Paul teach that an unmarried man had to marry in order to qualify for elder or bishop or deacon? I don't see it if he did. Order of worship is practically wide open it is so flexible. There were common elements, but no particular prescribed order and almost no details in Scripture on many things. So, we see now wide varieties on so many things.

The wearing of a head covering for women was, for Paul in 1 Corinthians 11, not negotiable. He spent a lot of ink on the reasons for it and landed on, "hey, if you don't like it, tough. There is no other custom in Christian churches." We have flexed that right out of existence, practically.

Inside that chapter, though, that we have ignored clear instruction on, lies this morsel: "But every women who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, disgraces her head...". This was public, assembled believers in worship. Another function of our flexibility is that we flexed out of existence the plurality of speakers in a meeting in favor of one preacher and a large audience facing him. (We wonder why gifts of the Spirit are missing in our meetings. We limit the speakers to the one. Ah, but that is another matter for another time.) Reading this passage makes us ask "huh?" But, in the Greek church, women spoke with approval --- while not wearing head coverings....without approval. The issue was not whether she prayed or prophesied. That seems to be expected. The issue was how submissive to God she was in her conduct. Isn't that an issue now? Boy, howdy, for all of us.

I park here. The order of submission in 1 Cor. 11 woman/wife to man/husband to Christ to God the Father means something. It is not mere poetry. It is not limited to home. I don't think we have fully thought through the implications of ignoring the distinctions. One of these implications is very much in our faces: homosexuality. If we can simply assign what Paul offered as a universal direction regarding women and head coverings (the real thrust of his statements in 1 Cor. 11) to the dust bin of cultural relevancy, then homosexuals and gay marriage proponents who want access to the church as participants in the graces of God may be right. If we can just ignore the gender distinctions of Paul about public ministry, or if we do not have a clear enough understanding of them to proceed without simply disregarding them -- as most of what I have read in the past by egalitarians does -- we have forfeited the power of truth on those distinctions as they relate to marriage. It is hollow when we assert "thus saith the Lord" about marriage when we have ignored so many other thus saiths. We may be right, but we are not completely right, and that seems to me to fly in the face of Paul's instruction that the man of God is perfectly furnished in every good work by studying the Word.

I don't part with anyone who disagrees. I simply think that no one has really thought the entire matter through to be able to meet the challenges of the implications of our treatment of Scripture.
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5/19/14 1:29 pm


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Post dolfan
Oh, I would love it. Let's do. If I am not quick enough to respond on something, everyone be merciful. Smile
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5/19/14 2:45 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Poimen wrote:
Tom, if you could, what does "without hierarchy" mean there? Is it a denial of the headship of the husband over the wife? Is it a denial of the headship of the elders over the church?

Just trying to get an idea of what is intended by the contrasting use of complementary AND hierarchy. You'll no doubt understand, and hopefully forgive, my skepticism that such sounds like a witty way of more or less espousing egalitarianism. if that is the case I would not be interested in the book. BUT, if it is something different from that then my curiosity is peaked. Wink


Poimen, do you remember when you suggested Tom read Debi Pearl's book, and Tom purchased the book himself and read some of it?
You should at least be open to reading a little of this, esp. since Tom has offered to foot the bill.
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5/19/14 2:48 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
bonnie knox wrote:
Poimen, do you remember when you suggested Tom read Debi Pearl's book, and Tom purchased the book himself and read some of it?
You should at least be open to reading a little of this, esp. since Tom has offered to foot the bill.

I wanted to make a point about this too. Brother Chris, I consider myself much more on your side on this issue than Tom's, but I quickly accepted Tom's generous offer. I respect Tom and know that any book he would recommend will be written by people who are solid on the core doctrinal tenets of our faith. I may not ultimately agree with their position on these "open hand" issues, but because we share agreement on the critical "closed hand" issues of the faith, I consider them worthy of an audience, especially on the recommendation of a brother like Tom.

I urge you to reconsider your openness to hearing an opposing viewpoint. If you are right in your understanding of scripture, considering and thinking through an opposing viewpoint will only strengthen your confidence in your position.
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5/19/14 4:08 pm


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Post Poimen
I meant no offense, and if I gave any I apologize. I wouldn't want Tom to feel like he wasted his money on me if there were others more interested in the book. After all, it's not as if I can't buy it myself.

I was honestly curious if the title meant some sort of mitigated complementarian view, because THAT I was interested in. But if it's egalitarianism then I am already familiar with the position, and deny it. I supposed his money would be better spent on giving the book to more potentially eager readers.

However, I am willing to receive a copy of the book if Tom would like me to have it. After all, he has a wonderful book in his collection now, by my recommendation, as Bonnie caused me to recall. The least I could do is accept a reciprocal book of his choosing, should he so desire.
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5/19/14 4:56 pm


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Post krista
Tom Sterbens wrote:
krista wrote:

If/ when you and your type have your way in the COG, that is the day the Church of God is in big trouble. You're why we are struggling today, because of people like you.
Not only that. The COG is what it is. If you think it's so bad and people like me are "in your way"...........go somewhere else that hold your views.


Actually - for each of the times this issue it has been presented at the General Assembly, it has been placed on the agenda by the Executive Council and Committee. By far the majority of the leadership I have spoken with over the years is very much for it.

Rather than "your type" or "our type," it would appear "the" type of people who are for it are those who have been leading the Church of God for some time.

Last - I think the oft quoted mentality of: "if you don't like things the way they are, then leave," will never facilitate the healthy diversity and dialog the New Testament calls for. In fact, a lot of the younger guys (and not younger guys) are doing just that - leaving. Recently a Church of God pastor with longstanding heritage, (and over 50 years old) left the Church of God...together with a church and congregation of nearly 3000 people. Certainly one of the top ten (if not top five) churches in attendance in our denomination.


Maybe leaving is the answer for some. If you come in to an organization and you disagree with it's by-laws, maybe it is time to go. So what, if we become smaller because some leave that don't agree with who we are. The COG isn't for everyone Tom. Maybe they don't belong here because of their beliefs.
Again, the COG is what it is. It makes absolutely no sense to me, to stay in a Church Organization that you disagree with it's teachings. Why does the COG have to change their teaching to accommodate those who disagree with her. To me it's simple. Go find a Church you line up with in your belief and teachings. That's what I would do. If many of the younger generation did change the COG, and it's no longer what I look for, I will leave. To me it's so simple.
If you don't like the by-laws of the Boy Scouts, don"t join. If you don't like the values of the NRA, then don"t join. Don't join in and then decide you don't like it so you want to change the rules. Don't join. Simple.
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5/19/14 6:10 pm


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Post Gerald Abreu
No.
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5/20/14 11:43 am


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Post Acts2Grind
Yes. Way too long we have waited and we should have said yes years ago. Our sister church Assembly of God are a wonderful group and mightily called of God anointed to spread the gospel. We would not be getting it wrong or neither would we be in opposition to God's word if we could have some sharp minded people evaluate the topic with a blue ribbon panel.
Tom Sterbens I don't know you but I'm glad young men like you are helping to lead this church. We are in good hands with guys like you. I say this with the love of Christ. Bless you.
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5/21/14 1:05 am


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Post Nick Park
krista wrote:

Maybe leaving is the answer for some. If you come in to an organization and you disagree with it's by-laws, maybe it is time to go. So what, if we become smaller because some leave that don't agree with who we are. The COG isn't for everyone Tom. Maybe they don't belong here because of their beliefs.
Again, the COG is what it is. It makes absolutely no sense to me, to stay in a Church Organization that you disagree with it's teachings. Why does the COG have to change their teaching to accommodate those who disagree with her. To me it's simple. Go find a Church you line up with in your belief and teachings. That's what I would do. If many of the younger generation did change the COG, and it's no longer what I look for, I will leave. To me it's so simple.
If you don't like the by-laws of the Boy Scouts, don"t join. If you don't like the values of the NRA, then don"t join. Don't join in and then decide you don't like it so you want to change the rules. Don't join. Simple.


If everyone had taken this attitude throughout the history of the Church of God then our minutes would still ban bobbed hair and chewing gum, people who operate moving picture shows would be ineligible for church membership and our presence in other countries would, quite frankly, be non-existent.

When you stop to think about it, it is incredible that a movement that began in the Appalachians among Scots-Irish mountain men has brought salvation and healing to millions in Africa, Latin America, Asia and Europe.

The reason some of us joined Church of God, and love the movement, is because it has proved itself to be remarkable adaptable on non-essentials while remaining true to sound biblical doctrine.

The idea that no changes should ever be considered, or that those seeking any kind of change should shut up or get out, is muddle headed.
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5/21/14 3:10 am


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Post Re: Are we so prepared to do something against the Word... Rafael D Martinez
Tom Sterbens wrote:
roughridercog wrote:
Are we so prepared to do something against the Word...Using opinions, passions, human reasoning, and even the argument that other denominations are doing it. I'm not trying to argue, but this could begin us down a slippery slope and one is forced to wonder, "Where will it stop?"

Just thinking out loud.

It is your opinion that it is "against the word."
You and I do not share the same opinion.

And this is the point where Poimen, Link and I have engaged in the past - in some measure of heated exchange. The supposition that, "because I do not agree with you," I am therefore "against the Word," or I am "liberal," is a disposition that borders on arrogant condescension.

So here's the deal: I'll invest a couple hundred dollars in sending a Kindle version or a book version to the first 10 or 12 guys who will actually read the critical passages in the book - Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity Without Hierarchy
For me, it is the best book/commentary I've read/referenced on the subject.

You can email me at tom@newhopeonline.com .
I will need a valid email address for the Kindle version or a USP street address or PO Box number for the printed version.

And "yes" I understand the pen name thing and anonymity. You do not have to tell me your pen name or who you are.


Got it Tom. I'll have some time .. I think .. to read it tommorrow. THANKS BRO. You are truly an apostle, boss. An anointed one.
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5/21/14 9:55 am


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Post krista
Nick Park wrote:
krista wrote:

Maybe leaving is the answer for some. If you come in to an organization and you disagree with it's by-laws, maybe it is time to go. So what, if we become smaller because some leave that don't agree with who we are. The COG isn't for everyone Tom. Maybe they don't belong here because of their beliefs.
Again, the COG is what it is. It makes absolutely no sense to me, to stay in a Church Organization that you disagree with it's teachings. Why does the COG have to change their teaching to accommodate those who disagree with her. To me it's simple. Go find a Church you line up with in your belief and teachings. That's what I would do. If many of the younger generation did change the COG, and it's no longer what I look for, I will leave. To me it's so simple.
If you don't like the by-laws of the Boy Scouts, don"t join. If you don't like the values of the NRA, then don"t join. Don't join in and then decide you don't like it so you want to change the rules. Don't join. Simple.


If everyone had taken this attitude throughout the history of the Church of God then our minutes would still ban bobbed hair and chewing gum, people who operate moving picture shows would be ineligible for church membership and our presence in other countries would, quite frankly, be non-existent.

When you stop to think about it, it is incredible that a movement that began in the Appalachians among Scots-Irish mountain men has brought salvation and healing to millions in Africa, Latin America, Asia and Europe.

The reason some of us joined Church of God, and love the movement, is because it has proved itself to be remarkable adaptable on non-essentials while remaining true to sound biblical doctrine.

The idea that no changes should ever be considered, or that those seeking any kind of change should shut up or get out, is muddle headed.


I never said we never need to change some things. Today, this is about a generation of Ministers ( I use that term lightly ) that want to transform the COG into something that doesn't even resemble our heritage and roots. You can tell me nothing about the COG. I have been part of it for over 40 years. I can see where this is going. I see liberal Ministers wanting to slowly dissolve the COG and make it completely different that it is.
I also resent being called what you called me. I completely understand that agenda that many have. Even more so that you.
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5/21/14 11:45 am


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Post Nick Park
krista wrote:
Nick Park wrote:
krista wrote:

Maybe leaving is the answer for some. If you come in to an organization and you disagree with it's by-laws, maybe it is time to go. So what, if we become smaller because some leave that don't agree with who we are. The COG isn't for everyone Tom. Maybe they don't belong here because of their beliefs.
Again, the COG is what it is. It makes absolutely no sense to me, to stay in a Church Organization that you disagree with it's teachings. Why does the COG have to change their teaching to accommodate those who disagree with her. To me it's simple. Go find a Church you line up with in your belief and teachings. That's what I would do. If many of the younger generation did change the COG, and it's no longer what I look for, I will leave. To me it's so simple.
If you don't like the by-laws of the Boy Scouts, don"t join. If you don't like the values of the NRA, then don"t join. Don't join in and then decide you don't like it so you want to change the rules. Don't join. Simple.


If everyone had taken this attitude throughout the history of the Church of God then our minutes would still ban bobbed hair and chewing gum, people who operate moving picture shows would be ineligible for church membership and our presence in other countries would, quite frankly, be non-existent.

When you stop to think about it, it is incredible that a movement that began in the Appalachians among Scots-Irish mountain men has brought salvation and healing to millions in Africa, Latin America, Asia and Europe.

The reason some of us joined Church of God, and love the movement, is because it has proved itself to be remarkable adaptable on non-essentials while remaining true to sound biblical doctrine.

The idea that no changes should ever be considered, or that those seeking any kind of change should shut up or get out, is muddle headed.


I never said we never need to change some things. Today, this is about a generation of Ministers ( I use that term lightly ) that want to transform the COG into something that doesn't even resemble our heritage and roots. You can tell me nothing about the COG. I have been part of it for over 40 years. I can see where this is going. I see liberal Ministers wanting to slowly dissolve the COG and make it completely different that it is.
I also resent being called what you called me. I completely understand that agenda that many have. Even more so that you.


Maybe where you are you have a group of ministers who are trying to do that to the Church of God. I certainly don't see what you see. I see a group of ministers (including most of those I have encountered on the Executive Council or the Executive Committee) who see the full ordination of women as entirely consistent with the heritage and calling of the the Church of God.

And, for what it's worth, I didn't call you anything. So your resentment is unwarranted.
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5/21/14 11:54 am


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Post Nick, krista JimmieDavis
Is dealing with ignorant paranoia. The only thing worse than liberalism is fear that keeps you from advancing. His or her {I guess that makes Krista an it} fear makes it want to control. It can't. It (krista) is in the minority. It is more concerned with his roots than his future. Part of the crowd that can't bridge the two. So that's why I excused her from the table. Our leaders know what they are doing. Vote for them and let them lead us forward. Friendly Face
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5/21/14 1:31 pm


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