Actscelerate.com

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/27/13 8:06 am**

Pension plans come from the the company, right?

roughridercog

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **3/27/13 8:30 am**

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/27/13 8:40 am**

Maybe, but don't they deserve the money just as much as you and your wife? This is one of the issues of equality that they are striving for.

So, maybe pension plans for companies could be affected. What else?

theElder

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1926 **3/27/13 8:50 am**

Eddie, it seems pretty obvious that it makes no difference to you what someone points out in opposition to homosexual marrige. You've already made up your mind. And that's ok.

But here is one area where there are going to be real costs on the federal level.

According to news reports there are over 1000 federal laws that will be affected if the Supreme Court strikes down DOMA.

There is no way to know how that will affect us as individuals or as a country.

Currently there are no federal health or pension or any other benefits for the surviving 'spouse' of a homosexual couple. How much that will cost us individually in increased taxes is impossible to determine.

Only time will tell what other adverse effects will occur should DOMA be struck down.

Eddie Robbins

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/27/13 9:13 am**

FG Minister

I Promise I am Not Attacking - Just Asking

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **3/27/13 10:19 am**

Dear Brother Eddie - you are in favor of same sex unions just not marriage? It's ok with you if two homosexuals co-habit in a sexual relationship and then receive the protections and benefits that are equal to a heterosexual couple? Are you not aware that the Bible condemns this behavior? Or does that matter in your world view?

If I were not a Christian, I would see this differently and probably say "live and let live." But I am a Christian and I cannot divorce myself from my faith when reaching opinions on anything. Either I stand for something or I will fall for anything, as the saying goes.

My simple question is this - how do you leave your Christianity outside your decision-making process? I promise I am not attacking - I'm just very troubled by what I read from you.

philunderwood

Re: I Promise I am Not Attacking - Just Asking

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **3/27/13 10:45 am**

Eddie Robbins

Eddie Robbins · Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/27/13 11:00 am**

I am opposed to all sin. ALL sin. However, I cannot create a law that STOPS sin. I also cannot be the judge of those OUTSIDE the church. That is not the issue here. The issue here is economic. That is why I said (and you are having a problem with it) "Other than spiritually for the country, and as a citizen."

So, I think ANY 2 people ought to have the right to draw up a legal document in a civil union. I also think the government has no right to define marriage one way or the other no more than they can define baptism.

BTW, civil unions and the government not being able to define marriage takes away the suits against churches for refusing to marry.

There is no need for you to be troubled by me. My beliefs do not affect yours. Now, can we PLEASE get back to my original post. Thanks!

Nature Boy Florida

Here's the problem

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **3/27/13 11:12 am**

If you think the U.S. is a Judeo - Christian nation - you are mistaken.

It originally was - but somebody somewhere allowed the Supreme Court to rule that there was a "wall of separation" in all govt. transactions. That was the dividing line - and everything else that has fallen is simply the result. Because that ruling is used over and over to continually strike down any law or activity that is based on the Bible.

Since that is now the way it is (fairly or unfairly) - moral arguments need not be made. Biblical arguments - not respected.

It's the way it is - and if you can picture what a country looks like with no moral compass - America will be there eventually - sooner probably than later.

homosexual marriage is first - polygamy coming - man boy not far away - man animal soon will be the cool Hollywood thing. Nothing can stop it short of a miracle - but let's face it - Pilgrims couldn't change things - they had to leave. We will be the same.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

Eddie Robbins

Let's try again:

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16509 **3/27/13 11:15 am**

Other than spiritually for the country, and as a citizen, how would legalizing same-sex marriage affect you personally? Would it violate any of your rights?

Nature Boy Florida

Acts-pert Poster Posts: 16619 **3/27/13 2:17 pm**

Seemingly secular (or spiritual decisions) overlap. We are spirit, soul, body.

Secularly approving of activities that go against nature itself - will have ramifications in the secular AND spiritual world.

It can't be compartmentalized.

Lot was a just man. Hanging out in a city that secularly approved of homeosexual liasons had lasting ramifications for him - far and above the secular law itself - even he couldn't see how far reaching it ended up being.

So my answer to Eddie's question is: I don't know. I don't think any of us can know.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!

theElder

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1926 **3/27/13 2:21 pm**

I accept Eddie's statement that he is playing the devil's advocate on the issue.

BUT, I pointed out where it will affect every taxpayers in the country and he is still asking his original question.

The plain fact is that you, me, Eddie and anyone else who pays taxes will pay more taxes if they have the 'right' to homosexual marriage.

BTW, that not Laughing

spiritual............but it does (will) hit home!

FG Minister

I Do Not Agree With Phil And Here's Why

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **3/27/13 3:16 pm**

Phil you state: My conviction and understanding of lifestyle commandments does NOT apply to them in the sense of me holding them accountable to a standard I live. (Of course we don't hold sinners to a Christian standard - sinners live a life of sin.)

But then you state: I feel it is my charge to 'make disciples.' To do that I begin by loving anyone and everyone DESPITE their place and choices. I am to tell, share, show and model that the FATHER wants HIS CHILDREN'S hearts to be turned to Him.

Of course we are to love them and not condemn them. I actually meet with them, invite them to church, and try to help them understand that God has a better plan. But I believe evangelism precedes discipleship. I cannot disciple an unsaved person in the Christian faith. Somewhere in the dialogue I have to discuss sin and how sin separates us from God. You may call that judging, but we have to deal with the sin question somewhere and at some time. Is that judging? Or is it compassion? I think the latter.

How can someone be reconciled to God unless they realize they are separated from Him? Again, it is sin that separates us from God. The sin that separates us is when we don't trust Him as Savior, of course, but I had a gay man tell me recently - I'd like to have a relationship with God, but I don't want to give up the gay lifestyle. No matter how I look at it, sin is at the heart of homosexuality. Whether it is a civil union or a marriage - sin is at it's core.

You don't know me nor I you - but I have a great deal of compassion for homosexuals because I know several in my own extended family. Their lives are not as "gay" as they would like you to believe. The ones I know are depressed and often suicidal. They need compassionate Christians to love them unconditionally and accept them as human beings. But I also have to think about it - if Jesus were physically on this earth and were to be asked if he thought two men should live under the same roof as a couple and engage in homosexual sex, I think he would he say "no." You may disagree with that assumption. But if I think Jesus would say "no" there is a better way to live your life, then I must also say no and not be afraid to say it publicly.

FG Minister

How Does It Affect Me Personally?

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **3/27/13 3:32 pm**

Our poster doesn't want us to quote the Bible or let our faith play a part in the answer. He only wants to know how allowing civil unions would affect the non-Christian me. Three ways:

1. It will affect my children - my children will see gay couples in civil unions and believe their behavior is acceptable. This de-sensitizing of my children will greatly affect me and my family.

2. It will affect me financially - more spouses, more benefits to be paid, more taxes I will have to pay.

3. It will affect me psychologically - I will now have to change my lifestyle to start integrating a higher tolerance for homosexual sin into my life. Once legitimized, they will take a more prominent role in society. I will be serving on boards with them and will have to hear my fellow male board member tell me "what his husband did today." I will have to discuss the issue of adoption for two lesbians as they come to me for counsel and how to "get through the muddy waters of adoption."

There you go Eddie. No spirituality at all. Just the secular me.

roughridercog

I could be sued for discrimination...

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **3/27/13 3:36 pm**

If it passes, the possibility would be there for me to be sued if I refuse to wed a homosexual couple or allow them to rent my church for their wedding.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

philunderwood

philunderwood · Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3954 **3/27/13 6:10 pm**

FGMinister:

Mat

From my church ...

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1981 **3/27/13 7:03 pm**

This is what I am writing on the subject - this is from my Friday newsletter - sorry it is a little long and needs some more editing:

America – Living the Nightmare
I enjoy watching the “The Lord of the Ring” series when ever one of the three movies that make up the trilogy on TV. The storyline (thanks to writer J. R. R. Tolkien) and the telling of the story through some of the best movie making ever done (thanks to Peter Jackson and others) is powerful. Yes, I know not everything is as Tolkien wrote in the book, but the movies are some of the best.

There is one scene from the series that is capable of affecting me to the point of nightmares. You may remember, if you have seen the movies, that the band of warriors (the fellowship) was in the mountain kingdom of the dwarfs, who had all been killed off by an evil power from the deep. One character states that the dwarfs were so greedy for gold that they dug too deep and released this “evil.” Then the evil shows up and, as a result, the band of warriors finds themselves running from a dragon of fire that seemed none could slay. As they ran, the group encountered a series of stairways that turned this way and that, never going up, but always down. Then, as they run bunched together down a set of steps, they realized that it ended in a sudden drop off to a bottomless canyon. Here’s my nightmare; would they run right off the edge or would those in front who saw the drop be able to stop the momentum of those behind before all of them went over the edge to destruction and disaster?

Perhaps, you too have had dreams (or nightmares) much like this. I have thought about it when I visit the rim of the Grand Canyon (and now you will too). Well, spiritually speaking, a similar nightmare is being lived out in America this week. The Supreme Court of the United States is hearing arguments on a challenge to state laws that limit marriage to heterosexual couples. Although the justices are deciding a constitutional question – whether the Equal Protection Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment includes a right for same-sex couples to marry – the argument is taking place as polls indicate that public opinion is shifting toward acceptance of same-sex marriage. Likewise, in the political world, many of our elected leaders are now supporting same-sex marriage as a right. They join most of the institutions that comprise our society, including education, employment, all levels of government, and even many churches which support same-sex relationships (marriage).

I see a staircase going down with a long drop at the end and I see America running down to its destruction. In recent years, nine states, either through court rulings, legislation or ballot measures have redefined marriage to include same-sex couples. Our military is now openly supportive of same-sex relationships and the LGBT community is being afforded special rights and protections not given to those who oppose such lifestyles based on their faith. From “restroom access” laws in Phoenix (whoever can use whichever restroom they wish in public places) to teaching “gay” history in California elementary schools, the result is that this nation is headed for the last step and nobody is putting on the “brakes.”

Christians, I am convinced that the democratic process is of little use in this matter. We cannot stop this downward momentum in this country by simply having a vote or by contacting our elected officials. As much as I believe in community service and involvement in civic organizations, I can see that those who oppose same-sex relationships based on their faith in the Bible are not welcomed anymore. No, it is not another election we need; it is a “dragon slayer.” What is “chasing” America down the steps of destruction? It is that evil from the deep. Who will slay that old evil dragon? Genesis 3: 14 & 15 tells us there is only ONE who can “crush” the head of that old serpent, the dragon. America needs to call for the dragon slayer to deliver those who believe in Him. After all, that is what Passion Week is all about, Jesus Christ saving all who believe in Him.

Individually, we do not have to fear the momentum of America, and we Christians do not have to “fall” off the staircase with the rest of society. However, many will point to this time, much like we point to the removal of the Bible and prayer from our schools in the early 1960s, as the end of a staircase and the beginning of the decline of this nation. In the movie the dragon was slain and the evil stopped. The one who “crushed” the dragon was thought to have been dead because he “went down” fighting the dragon. Later, the “resurrected” dragon slayer rejoins the group and leads them on to victory. I think J. R. R. Tolkien copied that from something he had read in the Bible.

Mat

John Jett

How will it affect me or the country?

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4955 **3/27/13 9:25 pm**

1. As a country, we now have no say in our lives based on popular vote.
2. Under the law, my relationship with my wife is not anything special and in fact is "the same" as two homos.
3. Our younger generations ALWAYS use the law to justify sin.
4. (and this is one of my biggest problems with this), at the same time this is being championed, the same set of politicians and people, are attacking private adoption. Its a two-pronged approach to turn over the orphans of this land to the homosexuals. They are quickly becoming a protected and preferred status. So, when private adoption is outlawed, then your children may be given to a married homosexual couple should you die and a will can not legally discriminate against married gays.
5. Today, in many/most states, a single man can not adopt a child (for obvious reasons, that will one day too be dismissed). Two homosexual men are two single men and usually can't adopt in states that don't recognize their "union". Once they bridge this impediment, they will have open season on adopting children. BTW, have you seen the children that are pleading for their gay parents? Most of them are q--- as a football-bat.

W. Ray Williams

Thoughts Part 1

Acts-celerater Posts: 881 **3/28/13 8:31 am**

I believe that we lost the debate on same-sex marriage 20 years ago and are just now realizing it.

In the early 90's Mr. Clinton enacted "Don't Ask Don't Tell". Basically we will allow homosexuals to be in the military as long as they are not openly gay. at that point, quietly, the moral argument was lost. Homosexuality was no longer taboo, evil, sinful or a moral ill.

When the moral argument is lost, the ability to use moral language is no longer effective in the debate. the language we have turned to is civil rights language.

we cannot win based on civil rights language. discrimination will always be struck down in our society.

we have many people still using moral language to talk against same-sex marriage without realizing that we lost the moral argument 20 years ago.
_________________
Pax,

Ray