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Nature Boy Florida |
| PastorJackson wrote: | well said | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I attended the Brownsville Outpouring several times and was mightily blessed and changed by the power of God there. Lindell Cooley was a very good musician and worship leader (and still is) but the revival actually started before Lindell even got there.
I've been in services that had equally good or even better music, but never have I been in services where the people worshipped with such manifestly wholehearted love and abandon for the Lord as at Brownsville. Nor have I witnessed anywhere else such deep and wholehearted repentance in altar services as I did at Brownsville.
Critics are quick to focus on the odd physical manifestations such as shaking and jerking, but those very same manifestations have often been noted in revival meetings and campmeetings since at least the Great Awakening of the 1700s.
Yes Brownsville's music was good, and yes there were some strange things that occurred, some of which could have been of questionable spiritual origin, but the thing that was most significant about Brownsville to me was the obvious hunger for more of God in virtually everything that went on, be it the singing, the praying, the preaching, etc. |
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Quiet and Jackson,
Perhaps this is the true legacy of Brownsville.
They went expecting. And it wasn't just one or two that went expecting - everyone there went expecting to meet God there. The music and preaching might have been great or mediocre - but it didn't matter because they went expecting to meet God there - and by your testimonies - that is exactly what happened. Much like Aaron fondly remembers campmeeting - perhaps those services had more lasting impact - because most of the people there expected to meet God there - and that is exactly what happened.
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/14/13 4:59 pm
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Link |
Does the Joel prophecy refer to something that all occurs before the return of Christ or does it refer to a period that extends into the millineum as well?
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
2/15/13 4:47 am
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| Brownsville |
4golf |
I look at Brownsville Assembly of God Now! On the verge of bankrupcey. Oweing more than $ 6.5 million dollasr and not out of the million that use to attened, only 800-1,000 attend every Sunday. Yes, there were salvations andl ives changed but a true Revival from the beginning of the Church lives that we changed and TRULY toucched by the Holy Spirit didn't just go back to there old life styles after a couple of years. Look what happened in the very first Revival over 2,000 years ago. A 120 recieved the Holy Spirit and then the next sermon over 3,000 we saved and looked they keep growing! I read a article several years ago of all the people who went through Brownsville and are nolonger serving God and it is evident by the church fixing to go broke, yet will Kilpatrick, Hill, and Cooley have money in the bank! Yes there was lives changed, but look at the majority. I believe it started as a true move of God, but FLESH took control and God let the Flesh show go and He moved out of the way.
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Ronnie Lingerfelt A/K/A 4 golf. |
Bound By Beaulah
Posts: 1003
2/15/13 8:53 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
The Azusa Street Mission was eventually demolished in 1931 and the property was lost to foreclosure in 1938. Surely if it were of God it would not have ended so pitifully.
The board at Brownsville began to disagree with Bro. Kilpatrick about his traveling ministry in the early 2000s, so he resigned in order to pursue what he felt God wanted him to do at that point. The local church there has never done very well since Kilpatrick left. I understand the major financial issue there is the large multipurpose building the church built in the late 90s to accommodate the huge overflow crowds at the height of the revival. I know that even after he resigned, Bro Kilpatrick has asked on his website for people who were touched by the revival to donate to Brownsville in order to help them pay off their debt. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/15/13 9:18 am
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PastorJackson |
very good analysis could not have said better. | Nature Boy Florida wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | well said | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | I attended the Brownsville Outpouring several times and was mightily blessed and changed by the power of God there. Lindell Cooley was a very good musician and worship leader (and still is) but the revival actually started before Lindell even got there.
I've been in services that had equally good or even better music, but never have I been in services where the people worshipped with such manifestly wholehearted love and abandon for the Lord as at Brownsville. Nor have I witnessed anywhere else such deep and wholehearted repentance in altar services as I did at Brownsville.
Critics are quick to focus on the odd physical manifestations such as shaking and jerking, but those very same manifestations have often been noted in revival meetings and campmeetings since at least the Great Awakening of the 1700s.
Yes Brownsville's music was good, and yes there were some strange things that occurred, some of which could have been of questionable spiritual origin, but the thing that was most significant about Brownsville to me was the obvious hunger for more of God in virtually everything that went on, be it the singing, the praying, the preaching, etc. |
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Quiet and Jackson,
Perhaps this is the true legacy of Brownsville.
They went expecting. And it wasn't just one or two that went expecting - everyone there went expecting to meet God there. The music and preaching might have been great or mediocre - but it didn't matter because they went expecting to meet God there - and by your testimonies - that is exactly what happened. Much like Aaron fondly remembers campmeeting - perhaps those services had more lasting impact - because most of the people there expected to meet God there - and that is exactly what happened. |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/15/13 5:01 pm
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| Re: Brownsville |
PastorJackson |
"I read a article several years ago of all the people who went through Brownsville and are no longer serving God and it is evident by the church fixing to go broke, yet will Kilpatrick, Hill, and Cooley have money in the bank! Yes there was lives changed, but look at the majority. I believe it started as a true move of God, but FLESH took control " OHHH you read an article? That is a big accusation for someone who never attended but read something, What money in the bank? Give us examples of this you have the bank books? Pastor Cooley is a senior pastor in Nashville,I don't care how much money he has and its none of your or MY business, Pastor Steve Hill is a Senior Pastor in TX and has battled cancer for years and is in bad shape so bet there is not much money there, Pastor John Kilpatrick is Senior Pastor in Mobile and he is worth his wage. I cant wait to see the evidence that none of them has helped with the churches problems, you must have it. A lot of us have helped but it took alot of money to repair the fire damage and to build the new building so we did not have to stand in 8 hour lines in the Fl sun. How can men of God sit there and besmirch other men of God, Do you think they should not have been paid? I guess you don't take a salary? it is been almost 20 years and I can name 20 people I know personally, that were touched in the revival and we STILL server God and we have ministries that have touched latterly millions across the globe!! By this logic the move of God in Acts was taken over by flesh thousands came then it disappeared. "all the people who used to serve God and now dont, ok over 8 million attended and over 4 born again or rededicated their life wow must have been a BIG list! | 4golf wrote: | | I look at Brownsville Assembly of God Now! On the verge of bankrupcey. Oweing more than $ 6.5 million dollasr and not out of the million that use to attened, only 800-1,000 attend every Sunday. Yes, there were salvations andl ives changed but a true Revival from the beginning of the Church lives that we changed and TRULY toucched by the Holy Spirit didn't just go back to there old life styles after a couple of years. Look what happened in the very first Revival over 2,000 years ago. A 120 recieved the Holy Spirit and then the next sermon over 3,000 we saved and looked they keep growing! I read a article several years ago of all the people who went through Brownsville and are nolonger serving God and it is evident by the church fixing to go broke, yet will Kilpatrick, Hill, and Cooley have money in the bank! Yes there was lives changed, but look at the majority. I believe it started as a true move of God, but FLESH took control and God let the Flesh show go and He moved out of the way. |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/15/13 5:24 pm
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| Re: Brownsville |
mytimewillcome |
| PastorJackson wrote: | | How can men of God sit there and besmirch other men of God |
I think it is awesome that you worked the word "besmirch" into your post.
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Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
2/15/13 7:46 pm
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| Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
4golf |
Quiet; The revival at Azuza Street ended in 1915. Seymour died in 1922. The church was disbanned, so it doesn't matter that the property was forclosed.
Pastor Jackson; As for the deal about money Kilpatrick owned two houses in the millions. He left Brownsville and started a church in Daphine. I don't blame all on Kilpatrick, the elders of the church share in the blame. As for Lindell Cooley, he has made tons of money off of c/d's. I am not saying there were not people touched, because they were, but the record speaks for it's self, there is not even 1,ooo attending on Sunday now and the church is fixing to go broke and it is what it is. Kilpartick walked away with money, Hill walked away with money and Cooley walked away with money and the church is fixing to close and the people in the Penscola are around the church have a bad taste in there mouth about God and most don't even go to church now! That is why I have a BIG problem with Brownsville, and I belive God has a problem with it. Look at the amount of people who no longer serve God. Why is it that the Assembly of God no longer even metions The Brownsville Revival? Brother Jackson the facts are the facts. You can go on the internet and check everything I have stated. No, I did not go there, but I have talked to Godly men and women who went there and have a great deal of decernment and look at what all has happen there.
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Ronnie Lingerfelt A/K/A 4 golf. |
Bound By Beaulah
Posts: 1003
2/15/13 7:47 pm
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| Re: Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
Quiet Wyatt |
| 4golf wrote: | | Quiet; The revival at Azuza Street ended in 1915. Seymour died in 1922. The church was disbanned, so it doesn't matter that the property was forclosed. |
You are mistaken. The Azusa Revival lasted until 1909. The Azusa St.
Mission pastored by Seymour continued to function as a church until the 1930s. After Seymour's death in 1922, his wife continued to pastor the mission until the 1930s. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/15/13 8:05 pm
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| End-Time Great Revival |
chainrattler |
| So, now that we have done our obligatory discussion of Brownsville and other events of the past, have we answered whether or not the concept of a great End-Time Revival can be supported by Scripture or is it just a Pentecostal urban legend invented by popular preachers? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
2/15/13 11:35 pm
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| Joel 2? |
Rafael D Martinez |
| Link wrote: | | Does the Joel prophecy refer to something that all occurs before the return of Christ or does it refer to a period that extends into the millineum as well? |
Depends on how you define your terms, Link. How you or anyone understands the verbiage about "the return of Christ" and "the millenium" in the Bible will entirely dominate how their understanding of a timeline events becomes resolved in their minds.
For the Charismatic and Pentecostal worlds, we seem to think it's a blueprint for revival and for judgment in our day. Look at how the IHOP leader and one of the so-called "Kansas City Prophet" Mike Bickle puts it:
The prophet Joel gave a precise overview of the end-time events, including the outpouring of the Spirit, the Battle of Jerusalem, the Armageddon Campaign, and Jesus’ millennial kingdom. Joel’s message is essential for those who are called to be forerunner messengers. Joel teaches God’s people how to respond in light of the coming end-time revival and crisis. His book is essential for this hour of history.
http://mikebickle.org/resources/series/studies-in-the-book-of-joel-2010
Like much of the C/P worlds, Bickle thinks Joel is a "precise overview" of "end time events .. in light of the coming end-time revival and crisis." There's a lot to say right there about what he and his prophetic tribe and subculture across the world say about what this "crisis" is but that's going to go way outside what I want to say now.
To build up your theology on the basis of one book in the Bible isn't very balanced for one very big reason - that being the plain context of the book itself! The verbiage of Joel's prophecy in Joel 2 is specific, as is any prophetic utterance in the Old Testament, in its application to the people who were meant to hear it. We seem to always forget that when we get into these discussions. God didn't just forget about the audience whom Joel gave his oracle to and write this for just to make sense only to tongue talkers in the twentieth century. Yet this attitude is what always persists and prevails among us when we read Joel, or for that matter, a lot of the prophetic works of the Bible. So we have to really be careful to consider that vital and overlooked foundational perspective.
Also no one, including Bickle or any of us is entirely sure exactly when and to whom Joel uttered his oracle to. That right there puts another huge question mark on anyone who tries to make it a "blueprint" for "revival." Even though we long for Biblical "precision" to support our assumption that it refers to Pentecost, in the end, we can't ignore the fact that there are NO clearly established details in the book regarding these issues. That was my point in my past comments which no one seems to be interacting with.
What Joel said was delivered to a Jewish populace under heavy tribulation and being faced by famine, destruction and societal ruin not to mention warfare and moral rot. We can certainly be convicted, inspired by and see parallels in the text which we can draw inferences from to which we live by today. I certainly can see where our belief in the Pentecostal outpourings of the past and the present and the future can be said to based on the "this is that" assumptions the Pentecostal pioneers made .. but at best, it's a tenuous conjecture. We don't like to hear that, discuss it, or deal with that plain fact. But it's there.
In other words, Pentecost's reality stands apart from our own attempts to try to place it in a prophetic framework we create that has little Biblical basis or connection. The manifestation of what He has sovereignly done among us can't be disputed. As I have said, I think Joel 2 can certainly be cited to provide a Biblical basis for Pentecost, but it's not a "slam dunk" on the issue by any means because the whole book has a lot more to say to us than just we Pentecostals - and then the Charismatics - who want to validate our spirituality with those who "aren't Spirit filled."
Bickle's rumination in fact goes way beyond and completely apart from what the book of Joel was meant to say. You don't have to read a bit of his studies here (which I have not) but just look at how he introduces the book to his "studies in" it. He has assigned to it a set of presumptions that his involvement in the whole "end time prophetic" movement brings to it, claims which I am already familiar with and which I think are largely unbiblical (and I could say so much more there).
Instead, the absence of any Biblical hooks in Joel 2 to hang the assumptions of the young lions of revivalism on about what is "revival" today is what largely, if not entirely, invalidates their preaching and teaching. But we don't like that because it messes with our endless obsession with church activity that largely has become a horrible mess of sideshow, personality cult and entertainment. And I'm being as charitable as I can be.
Sound doctrine in light of what we DO know about the end times that should produce sound practice that drives our supposedly "New Testament" Christian lifestyle and faith are novel concepts these days. We should be like those in the book of Acts who, under persecution and scattered by it, spread the Word everywhere. Instead, we huddle in our church wombs and pray "JESUS BRING THEM IN. JESUS BRING THEM IN," and await the next concert with the Kingsmen or the Extreme Worship Tour to do so.
While the world concludes that the absolutely petrifying spectacle in the heavens regarding the meteor that exploded in Russia and the asteroid that just missed this planet on the same day were just "coincedences" so it can go back to watching on demand "The Walking Dead." So the band played on.
Have you ever stopped to consider how much deader WE actually are then a fallen world entertaining itself with grotesque fantasies about dead people - how the image of God is twisted by the show WE produce for them? For me, it's a parable about the last days that I'll be blogging more on, but not here.
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www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
2/16/13 7:51 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I am not a follower of Mike Bickle in the least, but the simple fact is the whole modern Pentecostal movement is predicated theologically upon the belief in a great last days outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh, contra the fatalistic dogma of cessationism, which says that miraculous gifts and manifestation of the Spirit ceased when the apostles passed away, that the "This is that" is fulfilled and is not for today.
This original foundational belief of Pentecostalism (apocalyptic restorationist revivalism, expecting a final great awakening before the return of Christ in order to both bring in the final harvest and to empower the church to accomplish its mission in the last days) was promoted by numerous revivalists during the Great Awakenings of the 1700s and 1800s. The ardent expectation of a divine outpouring that would restore the spiritual dynamic of primitive Christianity was especially strong among the revival and holiness movements of the late 1800s and early 1900s, from which movements modern Pentecostalism emerged.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/18/13 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/16/13 11:18 am
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| Quiet |
4golf |
It did contuine after Seymour death, my bad. It just fell apart and it became a bunch of back biting and chaos after his death. A bunch of the key people left. I forgot that it did contiune a few years more. I thought it ended almost after his death.
_________________
Ronnie Lingerfelt A/K/A 4 golf. |
Bound By Beaulah
Posts: 1003
2/18/13 6:57 pm
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| Re: Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
PastorJackson |
Ok I dont want to hijack the thread anymore so I will leave it with this. Yes the facts are the facts and for every 1000 you find that are upset I can find 1000 that are on fire for God and spreading the Kingdom to this day. You really need to visit the place it is in a very bad area. Very high crime rate and older demographic. It was 10 million in debt there now below 7 there slowly chipping away at it. Here is a question for you, how do you manage a major move of God? Dont remember learning that in school. Were there mistakes sure, but it was not organized to defraud and enrich them which you are insinuating. Two houses in the millions in the 90's that is not saying much my house was valued at 250 when I bought it but it dropped over half, to criticize him for being a good investor is ludicrous at best. And what is wrong with starting a church if God tells him too? He is a Pastor that is our job remember to preach the gospel. And Lindell Cooley produced the music and sold and marketed the cds that people wanted no one forced them to buy them and we are in US where it is ok to make money. Again I ask you to prove where they walked away with all this money. Even if it were true, it would not make a dent in 11 million debt. At the end of the day it was a mighty move of God, over 4million attended, over 300,000 professed salvation, this spread around the world and is still having impact. I would not have the guts to criticize a move of God not matter how much Monday morning quarterback discernment these people have. | 4golf wrote: | Quiet; The revival at Azuza Street ended in 1915. Seymour died in 1922. The church was disbanned, so it doesn't matter that the property was foreclosed.
Pastor Jackson; As for the deal about money Kilpatrick owned two houses in the millions. He left Brownsville and started a church in Daphine. I don't blame all on Kilpatrick, the elders of the church share in the blame. As for Lindell Cooley, he has made tons of money off of c/d's. I am not saying there were not people touched, because they were, but the record speaks for it's self, there is not even 1,ooo attending on Sunday now and the church is fixing to go broke and it is what it is. Kilpartick walked away with money, Hill walked away with money and Cooley walked away with money and the church is fixing to close and the people in the Penscola are around the church have a bad taste in there mouth about God and most don't even go to church now! That is why I have a BIG problem with Brownsville, and I belive God has a problem with it. Look at the amount of people who no longer serve God. Why is it that the Assembly of God no longer even metions The Brownsville Revival? Brother Jackson the facts are the facts. You can go on the internet and check everything I have stated. No, I did not go there, but I have talked to Godly men and women who went there and have a great deal of decernment and look at what all has happen there. |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/19/13 2:44 pm
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| Re: Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
chainrattler |
| PastorJackson wrote: | | You really need to visit the place it is in a very bad area. Very high crime rate and older demographic. |
Are you saying there are a lot of senior citizen thugs there holding people at cane point and beating them senseless with their walkers?
If there was enough power there to make people shake their heads uncontrollably why wasn't there enough power to save and transform blocks and blocks of city residents.?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | It was 10 million in debt there now below 7 there slowly chipping away at it. |
It sure must be nice to be able to create all that debt and then be able to walk away from it. The secret to doing that would be a great subject for a seminar that multiple millions would be glad to learn the secret of.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Here is a question for you, how do you manage a major move of God? |
Well, you don't "market" it, that's for sure.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | was not organized to defraud and enrich them which you are insinuating. |
You're probably right, that just happened to be a happy coincidence.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Two houses in the millions in the 90's that is not saying much my house was valued at 250 when I bought it but it dropped over half, to criticize him for being a good investor is ludicrous at best. |
That all depends on the standard of living of the people whose money they took to enable them to make those "investments". Let's take your house value for example. Do you think it's right for them to take money from people whose houses cost 250 thousand and use that money to buy houses that cost multiple millions of dollars? That just stinks.
Also, statistically, the people who gave the most to the "revival" probably had homes worth far less than your $250 thousand dollars, if they owned their homes at all.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | And what is wrong with starting a church if God tells him too? He is a Pastor that is our job remember to preach the gospel. |
Which would be fine if they were preaching the gospel, but they weren't, they were trying to start a religious franchise in untapped markets. The way I heard it, they were going to try to duplicate the Brownsville phenomenon to other cities across the nation, but there weren't enough gullible, unstable people in those other cities for them to get a large enough cash flow going to repeat their scheme.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | And Lindell Cooley produced the music and sold and marketed the cds that people wanted no one forced them to buy them and we are in US where it is ok to make money. |
I'm sure that reasoning will hold up well before the Judgement Seat of Christ.
"Well, Lord, we lived in America, it's ok to lay up treasures on earth there."
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Again I ask you to prove where they walked away with all this money. Even if it were true, it would not make a dent in 11 million debt. |
Pretty sad, isn't it, they created more debt than they did income and left other people to pay the bill while they got away with "golden parachutes".
Tax returns are supposed to be public records. I guess for proof you could look at these individuals' tax returns before Brownsville and look at them after, that would be the proof, plus the bank and investment account statements would be as well.
Don't you find it suspiciously interesting that this happened in Florida and not in some other state?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | At the end of the day it was a mighty move of God, over 4 million attended, over 300,000 professed salvation, this spread around the world and is still having impact. |
As the old timers used to say, "God always honors his Word". They used to say that because of the questions raised when someone's favorite faith healer or evangelist ended up being exposed as an alcoholic or a seducer of women. People would ask, "How could they perform miracles and still be a whatever?" And the answer was, "God always honors His Word".
The reason people can't admit that Brownsville or Toronto or Bentley weren't of God is because of their pride and inability to admit that they were duped and capable of being deceived. They don't want to admit that they lacked discernment and had a shallow understanding and commitment to the Word. They were and are more committed to their "experiences" at places like Brownsville than they are to solid, healthy, Scriptural teaching. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
2/20/13 6:52 am
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| The cynics on this Board |
MS7777 |
never cease to amaze me. Raf and others are surely sincere and men of integrity and ethics. However, I can tell you that while you may disagree with some doctrine (and I think a lot of the KC prophet stuff of the eighties was off) Mike Bickle is one of the most sincere followers of Christ I have ever met. He is hardly a heretic. You may disagree with his assumptions, that's fine but some of us agree with it. The one thing about the prohetic stream right now is that they are among the FEW that hold to the supernatural elements of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The COG and the AG etc are running away from the move of hte Holy Spirit in their churches as fast as they can, partly because of heretic hunters and ignorance of a true move of God.
Regarding Brownsville's leaders; I can attest to the integrity of John Kilpatrick, Steve Hill and Michael Brown. They were and are sincere, anointed men of God. I remember John and his Board agonizing about whether to spend the money on the multi-purpose building at the time with the desire of NOT putting the church in the red and NOT having a building that would not be able to be used when the revival waned (as they knew it would). As to personal aggrandizement, yes John and Steve did gain financially personally. However, their slaries were set and approved by the Board of Brownsville AG and men of integrity from beyond the church were on that Board. Also, they got honorariums from churches and conferences and royalties from the sale of books mostly is what prospered them. I have no issue with any of that. As to the church's finances now, when you have a large facility and the overhead that goes with it, it is difficult to handle when you experience a large decrease in attendance. Nothing new there. The people who were there who did not like revival (gasp) left early on. The people who came in were drawn (rightly or wrongly) about the move of God. When it waned they left and now a "normal" church is trying to function in an environment that is too big for their purposes. That's not Steve's or John's fault. Kilpatrick should have probably stayed there to begin with. But, he felt God was moving him into more of an evangelist role vs pastoral. So be it. You can't look at the church now and say the move of God wasn't real or good. It was. And while I'm sure that many who were impacted and were on fire then are not now, that's true everywhere. 500 people saw Jesus after His resurrection but only 120 were there on the Day of Pentecost. I guess stuff happens huh.
Finally, I'm tired of cynics. My desire is to be more filled with His Presence today than I was yesterday. If along the way I am criticized for a minor doctrinal difference or show of the flesh due to the desire to be "on fire" then I guess criticize away. I WANT MORE! (of God, His anointing, His Power, His Love, His Grace on and on). Whatever it takes, I want revival. You can complain about manifestations and stand on the side of the river and criticize but I for one will be in the river and if I see issues or excess, I'll deal with those then.
My initial post was a desire to find scriptural basis for an end-time revival. Frankly, whether there is or is not scriptural basis, I believe we will see one. And you will find me in the middle of it! 
_________________
Acts 1:8 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 727
2/20/13 12:57 pm
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| Re: Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
PastorJackson |
| chainrattler wrote: | | PastorJackson wrote: | | You really need to visit the place it is in a very bad area. Very high crime rate and older demographic. |
Are you saying there are a lot of senior citizen thugs there holding people at cane point and beating them senseless with their walkers?
If there was enough power there to make people shake their heads uncontrollably why wasn't there enough power to save and transform blocks and blocks of city residents.?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | It was 10 million in debt there now below 7 there slowly chipping away at it. |
It sure must be nice to be able to create all that debt and then be able to walk away from it. The secret to doing that would be a great subject for a seminar that multiple millions would be glad to learn the secret of.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Here is a question for you, how do you manage a major move of God? |
Well, you don't "market" it, that's for sure.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | was not organized to defraud and enrich them which you are insinuating. |
You're probably right, that just happened to be a happy coincidence.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Two houses in the millions in the 90's that is not saying much my house was valued at 250 when I bought it but it dropped over half, to criticize him for being a good investor is ludicrous at best. |
That all depends on the standard of living of the people whose money they took to enable them to make those "investments". Let's take your house value for example. Do you think it's right for them to take money from people whose houses cost 250 thousand and use that money to buy houses that cost multiple millions of dollars? That just stinks.
Also, statistically, the people who gave the most to the "revival" probably had homes worth far less than your $250 thousand dollars, if they owned their homes at all.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | And what is wrong with starting a church if God tells him too? He is a Pastor that is our job remember to preach the gospel. |
Which would be fine if they were preaching the gospel, but they weren't, they were trying to start a religious franchise in untapped markets. The way I heard it, they were going to try to duplicate the Brownsville phenomenon to other cities across the nation, but there weren't enough gullible, unstable people in those other cities for them to get a large enough cash flow going to repeat their scheme.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | And Lindell Cooley produced the music and sold and marketed the cds that people wanted no one forced them to buy them and we are in US where it is ok to make money. |
I'm sure that reasoning will hold up well before the Judgement Seat of Christ.
"Well, Lord, we lived in America, it's ok to lay up treasures on earth there."
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Again I ask you to prove where they walked away with all this money. Even if it were true, it would not make a dent in 11 million debt. |
Pretty sad, isn't it, they created more debt than they did income and left other people to pay the bill while they got away with "golden parachutes".
Tax returns are supposed to be public records. I guess for proof you could look at these individuals' tax returns before Brownsville and look at them after, that would be the proof, plus the bank and investment account statements would be as well.
Don't you find it suspiciously interesting that this happened in Florida and not in some other state?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | At the end of the day it was a mighty move of God, over 4 million attended, over 300,000 professed salvation, this spread around the world and is still having impact. |
As the old timers used to say, "God always honors his Word". They used to say that because of the questions raised when someone's favorite faith healer or evangelist ended up being exposed as an alcoholic or a seducer of women. People would ask, "How could they perform miracles and still be a whatever?" And the answer was, "God always honors His Word".
The reason people can't admit that Brownsville or Toronto or Bentley weren't of God is because of their pride and inability to admit that they were duped and capable of being deceived. They don't want to admit that they lacked discernment and had a shallow understanding and commitment to the Word. They were and are more committed to their "experiences" at places like Brownsville than they are to solid, healthy, Scriptural teaching. |
Wow you are piece of work! I was not duped or deceived, my life was changed forever, I was fired up for Christ like I never had been. Your on very dangerous ground with your accusations! I find your accusations repugnant and un Christlike. Who are YOU to question my commitment to the word? Or my shallow understanding? You really make me ill. Really who do you think you are? You are a coward a cretin that makes a mockery of this board."The way you heard it" you said, so you are a gossip and a liar huh? I really wish one of these men of God would take you to court and take you to task. You don't have the guts to criticize these people to their face but you have no problems destroying their reputations on here behind a false name, that is NOT what this board was founded for. I think you should be banned for this especially since Doyle has mentioned that before.
"because of their pride and inability to admit that they were duped and capable of being deceived. They don't want to admit that they lacked discernment and had a shallow understanding and commitment to the Word. They were and are more committed to their "experiences" at places like Brownsville than they are to solid, healthy, Scriptural teaching."
You attack me and others on here saying this, who are you to say this since you don't reflect Christ teachings at all. It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/21/13 3:12 pm
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| Re: The cynics on this Board |
PastorJackson |
Well said and I cant wait! | MS7777 wrote: | never cease to amaze me. Raf and others are surely sincere and men of integrity and ethics. However, I can tell you that while you may disagree with some doctrine (and I think a lot of the KC prophet stuff of the eighties was off) Mike Bickle is one of the most sincere followers of Christ I have ever met. He is hardly a heretic. You may disagree with his assumptions, that's fine but some of us agree with it. The one thing about the prohetic stream right now is that they are among the FEW that hold to the supernatural elements of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The COG and the AG etc are running away from the move of hte Holy Spirit in their churches as fast as they can, partly because of heretic hunters and ignorance of a true move of God.
Regarding Brownsville's leaders; I can attest to the integrity of John Kilpatrick, Steve Hill and Michael Brown. They were and are sincere, anointed men of God. I remember John and his Board agonizing about whether to spend the money on the multi-purpose building at the time with the desire of NOT putting the church in the red and NOT having a building that would not be able to be used when the revival waned (as they knew it would). As to personal aggrandizement, yes John and Steve did gain financially personally. However, their slaries were set and approved by the Board of Brownsville AG and men of integrity from beyond the church were on that Board. Also, they got honorariums from churches and conferences and royalties from the sale of books mostly is what prospered them. I have no issue with any of that. As to the church's finances now, when you have a large facility and the overhead that goes with it, it is difficult to handle when you experience a large decrease in attendance. Nothing new there. The people who were there who did not like revival (gasp) left early on. The people who came in were drawn (rightly or wrongly) about the move of God. When it waned they left and now a "normal" church is trying to function in an environment that is too big for their purposes. That's not Steve's or John's fault. Kilpatrick should have probably stayed there to begin with. But, he felt God was moving him into more of an evangelist role vs pastoral. So be it. You can't look at the church now and say the move of God wasn't real or good. It was. And while I'm sure that many who were impacted and were on fire then are not now, that's true everywhere. 500 people saw Jesus after His resurrection but only 120 were there on the Day of Pentecost. I guess stuff happens huh.
Finally, I'm tired of cynics. My desire is to be more filled with His Presence today than I was yesterday. If along the way I am criticized for a minor doctrinal difference or show of the flesh due to the desire to be "on fire" then I guess criticize away. I WANT MORE! (of God, His anointing, His Power, His Love, His Grace on and on). Whatever it takes, I want revival. You can complain about manifestations and stand on the side of the river and criticize but I for one will be in the river and if I see issues or excess, I'll deal with those then.
My initial post was a desire to find scriptural basis for an end-time revival. Frankly, whether there is or is not scriptural basis, I believe we will see one. And you will find me in the middle of it! |
_________________
Are the things you are living for, worth Christ dying for?
http://www.jacksonplant.org/
http://jacksonplant.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/jackson.plant |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4750
2/21/13 3:15 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
But Jackson indicates he went there - and had what amounts to a Bethel experience.
That is real.
There is no discounting that.
Good for Jackson. And he is not alone.
I in no way want to disparage that - because that experience is one that will be a focal point his whole life.
I am no fan of Kilpatrick or Hill - but, to me, that is separate from the permanently real experiences some folks had there.
If it was going on now - I would go over there. I could use something. 
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
2/21/13 4:52 pm
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| Re: Quiet& Pastor Jackson |
chainrattler |
| PastorJackson wrote: | | Wow you are piece of work! |
Perhaps, but I noticed you didn't answer any of the remarks I made or questions I asked.
| PastorJackson wrote: | | I was not duped or deceived, my life was changed forever, I was fired up for Christ like I never had been. |
How would you have known at the time if you were, given the spiritual state you were in at the time?
There have always been people preaching counterfeit gospels and near-gospels since the time of the Apostle Paul. He even had to warn the Galatians about it, going as far as saying that if anyone preached any other gospel than the one he preached to them that they should be eternally cursed.
Those are pretty strong words, Pastor Jackson. Why do you suppose he used that strong of speech? Could it be because the danger of being duped and deceived was such a strong possibility in his day, even with the original twelve apostles and himself still living?
Possibly because the counterfeit looked so much like the real that it was not easily distinguishable?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Your on very dangerous ground with your accusations! I find your accusations repugnant and un-Christlike. |
I accused no one of anything. I remember distinctly the announcement that they were going to take the Brownsville experience across the country to major cities. I remember an evangelist I had known from my childhood coming to the church I was attending in 1995 trying to "impart" what he had received in Brownsville. It didn't work, because the people in the church I attended were emotionally stable, doctrinally sound, and not gullible; and they knew the difference between the Spirit and the flesh.
Paul told the Galatians that he wished the Judaizers would go the whole way and emasculate themselves. Does that sound "Christlike" by your standards?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | Who are YOU to question my commitment to the word? Or my shallow understanding? You really make me ill. Really who do you think you are? You are a coward a cretin that makes a mockery of this board. |
I didn't. You volunteered to put yourself in that category by responding to me in this manner. I simply asked some sensible questions based on the facts of what has happened historically since Brownsville occurred.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | "The way you heard it" you said, so you are a gossip and a liar huh? |
No, I read the announcement at the time on the Brownsville web site.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | I really wish one of these men of God would take you to court and take you to task. |
And you being the "Christlike behavior" expert you claim to be, that would be right up there wouldn't it?
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | You don't have the guts to criticize these people to their face but you have no problems destroying their reputations on here behind a false name, that is NOT what this board was founded for. |
I do not have the power to destroy their reputation and I wouldn't have the ability to speak to them face to face if I wanted to.
Besides, God is their ultimate judge, not me or you, for good or for bad.
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | | I think you should be banned for this especially since Doyle has mentioned that before. |
Was it Shakespeare who said, "Methinks the lady doth protest too much?"
| Pastor Jackson wrote: | "because of their pride and inability to admit that they were duped and capable of being deceived. They don't want to admit that they lacked discernment and had a shallow understanding and commitment to the Word. They were and are more committed to their "experiences" at places like Brownsville than they are to solid, healthy, Scriptural teaching."
You attack me and others on here saying this, who are you to say this since you don't reflect Christ teachings at all. It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. |
There were many sound Assembly of God pastors, evangelists, theologians, and even administrators and professors who seriously questioned the validity of the so-called "revival" when it happened. These were all men with far more credibility and experience than you and I combined. There were even web sites set up, such as Contemporary Pentecostal Issues, in the late 1990s to address these doctrinal errors.
The biggest problem with Brownsville is that it elevated experience above Scripture, especially when it came to extrabiblical manifestations such described here:
| Quote: | | "As they were slain in the spirit, they would go into a fetal position and tremble and shake. Some of the women would go into a sitting down birthing position to give birth to whatever. This was accompanied with grunts, moans and shrill screeching. Next, the ushers physically picked up the intercessors from the floor (who were still in travail in a fetal position) and carry them through the congregation to the balcony as effigies of intercession. [This was done] so that conviction and repentance would come down to the people as they passed by." |
I had an A/G pastor acquaintance at the time who said to me, "I don't really care if the manifestations at Brownsville are of the Spirit or of the flesh; the Assemblies of God is becoming so dead and dry we need something, anything, to get us moving again". I couldn't believe my ears when I heard that. As Rodney Howard-Browne once said, "I'd rather have the devil manifesting than be in a church where nothing is happening." |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
2/22/13 12:32 am
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