Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
r/Actscelerate

Did Paul sin?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post bradfreeman
bonnie knox wrote:
All that doesn't mean that my body is not part of the real me.


Certainly we have a close relationship with our "earthly tent". But if it is the real you or part of it, then you'll be leaving part of the real you behind in the resurrection - the weak, dishonorable and corruptible part.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 1:31 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Daniel Rushing wrote:
All of those verses are irrelevant because I understand his use of the word "righteousness" differently than you.


Whatever "righteousness" means to you...we get it by faith.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 1:32 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Randy Johnson
Daniel Rushing wrote:
All of those verses are irrelevant because I understand his use of the word "righteousness" differently than you. I also reject any gnostic reading of Paul and I think Paul had a different agenda for his writing than you do. I have explained this at length to you more than once.


The Word of God is never irrelevant.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/5/13 1:32 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.


What part of us was crucified? Not our bodies, our spirits. This was accomplished to empower us to overcome sin in the part of us that didn't die. This all happened so that our "body of sin might be done away with". This weak, corruptible, dishonorable body of sin will die and be done away with in the resurrection (1 Cor. 15). Our bodies will not be figuratively done away with at any time...this is literal. When our bodies are changed, we will be like Him. Until then we groan and await deliverance from the "body of this death", the redemption of our bodies.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory ; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power ; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.


The bodies of the righteous will be sown as "perishable" (corruptible), "sown in dishonor" and "sown in weakness".

Romans 8:10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Quote:
We simply are not at liberty to believe we have more security than the Scriptures themselves say we have.


...or less. Our righteousness is dependent on the obedience of Christ, not us.

Quote:
And the Scriptures nowhere reveal that anyone can rightly claim security in Christ while continuing in sin.


Here are a few of God's solemn promises to His new covenant people:

Isaiah 54:8 "In an outburst of anger I hid My face from you for a moment, But with everlasting lovingkindness I will have compassion on you," Says the LORD your Redeemer. 9 "For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again ; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you. 10 "For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake, But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you, And My covenant of peace will not be shaken," Says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works : 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

Heb. 8:10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD : I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

Heb. 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins ?

Heb. 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD : I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, 17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Heb. 13:5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have ; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6 so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME ?"

His promise comes before my character is free from the love of money. I free my way from the love of money because He won't leave me, not so that He won't leave me.

It's His grace my brother, not my goodness.
It's His faithfulness, not mine.
It's His strength, not mine.

1 John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment ; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love ; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 2:01 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
bradfreeman wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
All that doesn't mean that my body is not part of the real me.


Certainly we have a close relationship with our "earthly tent". But if it is the real you or part of it, then you'll be leaving part of the real you behind in the resurrection - the weak, dishonorable and corruptible part.


I'm expecting a change. I expect the mortality to be swallowed up in immortality.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
2/5/13 2:07 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Nothing in any of those passages says anything that would even suggest that our bodies are in and of themselves sinful, Brad.

I am quite aware of the fact that our bodies are physically corruptible and subject to eventual physical death/mortality due to the sin of Adam.

Your attempt to misrepresent my view (as really is typical of those who wish to argue against the straw man of 'eternal insecurity' they themselves have constructed), you state or imply that my view means it is all up to me and what goodness I can somehow muster up. But that is just your own mischaracterization of it, and is not what I believe.

My belief, in line with the Scriptures and the early church fathers, is not self-salvation or self-sanctification at all. It is instead synergistic in nature, as for instance the following:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. (Philippians 2:12-16 ESV)
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 2:19 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
There is absolutely no question in my mind that God forgives, and that when He forgives our sins he casts them as far as the East is from the West, remembering them no more. The condition of forgiveness is confession, "to say the same thing as" God says about our sins--that they are wicked, blameworthy, and utterly contemptible in His sight, that they truly deserve His righteous indignation and wrath, and that only by the mercy offered in the blood of Christ can they be atoned and may we be forgiven and cleansed from them. The Lord does not impute sin to those who have repented of them.

Whoever conceals his transgressions will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will obtain mercy. (Proverbs 28:13 ESV)

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9 ESV)

The idea of sins being already forgiven before we commit them is nowhere taught in Scripture.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/5/13 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 2:32 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Daniel Rushing
Randy Johnson wrote:
Daniel Rushing wrote:
All of those verses are irrelevant because I understand his use of the word "righteousness" differently than you. I also reject any gnostic reading of Paul and I think Paul had a different agenda for his writing than you do. I have explained this at length to you more than once.


The Word of God is never irrelevant.


Did I say that it was? Confused Rolling Eyes
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
2/5/13 2:49 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Nothing in any of those passages says anything that would even suggest that our bodies are in and of themselves sinful, Brad.


Paul does call it the "body of sin" and says he has "sin in my members". He calls it weak, corruptible and dishonorable if you prefer those terms.

Rom. 7:7 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Quote:
My belief, in line with the Scriptures and the early church fathers, is not self-salvation or self-sanctification at all. It is instead synergistic in nature, as for instance the following:

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work OUT your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works IN you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Do all things without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. (Philippians 2:12-16 ESV)


This is a re-wording of Paul's statement in Ephesians 4:20 encouraging us to "put on the inner man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness". We are saved, born again in spirit. Salvation is His work, not ours. The synergistic part is not our salvation, but the bringing of the inner work into our outer lives.

2 Cor. 3:5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

2 Cor. 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the surpassing greatness of the power will be of God and not from ourselves ;

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 3:05 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
The promise to never leave not forsake us, like all scripture, must be interpreted in context. When God originally made that promise to Israel in Deuteronomy (31:6, 8), in that very same chapter just a few verses down He revealed the conditional nature of that promise:

And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 KJV)

In the same way, the promise given of Jesus that he would be with us always, even to the end of the age, is a wonderful promise given in the context of His command to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all things He has commanded them. Likewise, the promise quoted from Deuteronomy in Hebrews is woven in among a series of moral commands.

In other words, the promise to be never left nor forsaken is given only to those who remain faithful to Him.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 2/5/13 4:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 3:14 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Regarding Romans 7... Quiet Wyatt
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4 NASB)

Romans 7 depicts what it is like to live as a legalist, "married to the Law," as the early verses in chapter 7 describe, striving in one's own strength to obey God. Even with the best of intentions and most valiant effort of the will, the one who is a slave of sin is simply unable to free himself from the law of sin and death. But thank God it does not end there!

This is not to say that a born again, Holy-Spirit-indwelt Christian never ever sins again, but that the way of true victory over sin is provided for all who believe in Christ. It is a mind set on the Spirit which brings LIFE and peace. It is the believer led by the Spirit who is empowered to put to death the deeds of the body and thus really learn to live (Romans 8:13).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16 NASB)


And...

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal. 5:24 NASB
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 3:15 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: Regarding Romans 7... bradfreeman
For purposes of this part of the discussion, it doesn't matter whether Paul is talking about his condition before or after conversion...he says sin and nothing good is in his members or flesh. If, when he sins, it is not him who does it, why does God hold him guilty of something he is not doing.

Quiet Wyatt wrote:
And...

Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal. 5:24 NASB


This is a figurative, not literal, act wherein we express our determination to resist the sinful lust of the flesh on an ongoing basis...we die daily...we offer our bodies a living sacrifice. This is not a one-time deal. This is an ongoing struggle.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 3:52 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
The promise to never leave not forsake us, like all scripture, must be interpreted in context.


I quoted it in context. The writer of Hebrews didn't add conditions to this beautiful promise to believers...it is one of the many precious promises that is BETTER under the new covenant.

Quote:
When God originally made that promise to Israel in Deuteronomy (31:6, Cool, in that very same chapter just a few verses down He revealed the conditional nature of that promise:

And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us? And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 KJV)


I notice you didn't add conditions to the promise not to impute sin to us or remember our sins...Paul didn't either.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 3:55 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Actually I did. A sin is not imputed if and when one repents of it.

The Hebrews passage is filled with conditions both stated and implied from the preceding portions of the book. God will never leave not forsake his child who stays submitted to His loving discipline. He will forsake those who forsake him though.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 4:20 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Actually I did. A sin is not imputed if and when one repents of it.


Where is this passage? Paul says sin is not imputed where there is no law.

Rom. 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin." 9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Since we are no longer under the law, God does not impute sin to us but credits us with righteousness.

Rom. 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 5:05 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Look at the immediate context. In classic parallelism, David speaks of sins as forgiven, covered/atoned, and not imputed.

"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." (Romans 4:7, 8 ESV)

We are in fact under the Law of Christ, as Paul himself says, so it is not the case that we have no law at all just because we are not under the Law of Moses.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 5:13 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
We are in fact under the Law of Christ, as Paul himself says, so it is not the case that we have no law at all just because we are not under the Law of Moses.


We are not, in fact, under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death that was given to increase sin, empower sin, shut every mouth, condemn, kill and declare everyone guilty and unrighteous.

We are in fact under the law of the Spirit of life, the perfect law that gives freedom...the law of Christ written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/5/13 5:19 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Note the original context Paul is quoting from in Romans 4:8; that of Psalm 32:

How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was drained away as with the fever heat of summer. Selah. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord "; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah. (Psalms 32:1-5 NASB)

We can be certain that one so well-versed in Scripture as Paul would not quote from this wonderful passage of Scripture in a way that was inconsistent with its original meaning.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 5:23 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
bradfreeman wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
We are in fact under the Law of Christ, as Paul himself says, so it is not the case that we have no law at all just because we are not under the Law of Moses.


We are not, in fact, under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death that was given to increase sin, empower sin, shut every mouth, condemn, kill and declare everyone guilty and unrighteous.

We are in fact under the law of the Spirit of life, the perfect law that gives freedom...the law of Christ written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit.


I agree, and that is essentially what I said.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
2/5/13 5:25 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Randy Johnson
Daniel Rushing wrote:
Randy Johnson wrote:
Daniel Rushing wrote:
All of those verses are irrelevant because I understand his use of the word "righteousness" differently than you. I also reject any gnostic reading of Paul and I think Paul had a different agenda for his writing than you do. I have explained this at length to you more than once.


The Word of God is never irrelevant.


Did I say that it was? Confused Rolling Eyes


Uh, yes, those were your exact words, in fact.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/5/13 5:29 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 7 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.