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Did Paul sin?
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Post Did Paul sin? bradfreeman
Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it.

Romans 7:16 "But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."


What do you suppose Paul meant by this statement?

Rom. 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Paul said it is "no longer" him that does it.

Did it used to be him? What changed?

Romand 7:21 "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

What is the "law of God" in his "inner man"?

What is the "law of sin" in his "members"?
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Post Nope spartanfan
He was describing the condition of man in the bondage of sin before conversion. Then he asks the question "who shall deliver me?" and answers "I thank God - through Jesus Christ!" So he is not claiming to be under the bondage of sin after his conversion but is describing his condition before and showing where the only hope for deliverance lies- through Jesus Christ the Lord! Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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Post Re: Nope Randy Johnson
spartanfan wrote:
He was describing the condition of man in the bondage of sin before conversion.


I disagree. Primarily because I spent several hours a couple days ago reading through Romans aloud, carefully and slowly - one word at a time - and came away with the knowledge that:

#1. Paul personified sin in Romans. That is, he spoke of sin as if it were a spiritual entity with a life of its own, rather than just a list of rules to break. This is why he said, "If I do what I do not want to do, then it is no longer I who do it, but sin living in me that does it." Our human spirit is redeemed and regenerated through faith in Jesus Christ, but our bodies are not redeemed yet and sin still tries to enslave us through the desires of our human bodies.

#2. Paul's letter, like all the other epistles in the New Testament, was written to Jewish and Gentile believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, not to unregenerated unbelievers. He was talking about the condition and the conflict between the human spirit that had been redeemed and the sinful nature that was still at work in his unredeemed human body.

#3. Paul indicated that in his flesh, after conversion, dwelt no good thing. This is always a spiritual truth no matter how long we have been "saved". If and when we ever depend upon the power of our own will and our own flesh, we will inevitably fail in our attempt to live in a way that pleases
God. It is only when we submit ourselves to the indwelling Holy Spirit that we even have a chance of success. Without Him, we can do nothing.

#4. This deliverance from the flesh (sinful nature) that he talks about is a continuing battle all the days of his life (and ours) as long as we live in these unredeemed, unglorified, corruptible, mortal bodies. We will constantly have to make the choice between living according to our sinful nature and living according to the Spirit. The battle will not be over until we changed to be like Him and see Him as He is.

#5. There is no indication in the context that he is talking about a pre-conversion state, it simply is not there. In fact, by beginning the chapter with his illustration of a woman being released from the law of marriage due to the death of her husband, and relating that illustration to us being dead to sin and released from the supervision of the law, he is in fact reinforcing the idea of the difference to how God dealt with mankind before Christ's death and how He deals with us now after Christ's death. Everything he talks about in chapter 7 concerns someone who has died to the law through the body of Christ and has been risen with Christ to live a new life.

#6. The deliverance by Christ from the body of death is not a reference to the initial conversion experience, rather, it is a direct reference to living by the new way of the Spirit instead of the old way of the written code. Christ delivers us from the body of death by filling believers with the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, and this Spirit gives life to our mortal bodies so that we no longer serve sin, but serve God in true righteousness and holiness.

#7. Jesus Christ delivers us from involuntary slavery to sin. Before we come to Christ we are slaves to sin by nature and have no choice in the matter. After we come to Christ, and our spirit is made alive in him, he returns to us the power of choice to either offer the members of bodies to sin again or to offer them to God to be slaves of righteousness. If we continue to offer the members of our bodies as slaves to sin after we have believed on Jesus, we risk experiencing the second death at the Judgement, however, if by the Spirit we put to death the misdeeds of the body, we will live and inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God and Christ.
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Post Cojak
This is a tough one.
Old folks came to this and used the phrase, 'we willunderstand it better by and by.' that was a catch-all. But understandable when I follow the line of sin and conversion thruout my 74 years.

This could be a good discussion, I like what I have read so far. Cool
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Post Thank God for the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus! Quiet Wyatt
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:1-4 NASB)

Romans 7 depicts what it is like to live as a legalist, "married to the Law," as the early verses in chapter 7 describe, striving in one's own strength to obey God. Even with the best of intentions and most valiant effort of the will, the one who is a slave of sin is simply unable to free himself from the law of sin and death. But thank God it does not end there!

This is not to say that a born again, Holy-Spirit-indwelt Christian never ever sins again, but that the way of true victory over sin is provided for all who believe in Christ. It is a mind set on the Spirit which brings LIFE and peace. It is the believer led by the Spirit who is empowered to put to death the deeds of the body and thus really learn to live (Romans 8:13).

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16 NASB)
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Post The only thing "fallen" for us is the body itself. Poimen
I agree with Spartanfan. Though our bodies themselves do remain fallen, and hence mortal and susceptible to sin, no more so than the flesh Jesus Himself received in the incarnation.

Once our spirit man is made alive when we are born again, born of the Spirit, we are as He (Jesus) in this world (1 John 4:17). We are created righteous and holy spirit beings, after God (Ephesians 4:24), that is to say, born of God (1 John 3:9, 5:4, & 5:18 ), even while yet in mortal bodies (Romans 8:1 & 1 Corinthians 10:3) with all it's passions (Colossians 3:5, Galatians 5:24, Galatians 5:16) in a fallen world (1 John 2:15, 1 John 3:1, St. John 15:19, & St. John 17:14-16).

Being mortal, and in that respect yet in the flesh, means the capacity to be tempted, and yield to temptation, remains. We can sin, if we do not walk in the Spirit. Nevertheless, if merely still being mortal makes us sinful, then it made Jesus so as well. Shocked

Did Jesus sin? Did sin sin through Jesus? I think not (1 Peter 2:21-22). Let us walk even as He walked (1 John 2:6).
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Post Re: Nope bradfreeman
Randy Johnson wrote:
#7. Jesus Christ delivers us from involuntary slavery to sin.


On the whole...well said RJ.

I wish someone would attempt to answer the questions I posted.

My only thought on the involuntary nature of sin is that God's conversation with Cain indicated that Cain had a choice whether to fall prey to sin.

Gen. 4:6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry ? And why has your countenance fallen ? 7 "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door ; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its bradfreeman
Poimen wrote:
Did Jesus sin? Did sin sin through Jesus? I think not (1 Peter 2:21-22). Let us walk even as He walked (1 John 2:6).


Jesus did not sin.

Is Paul's statement was true, that when he sinned it was not him sinning, but sin in his members?
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its R. Keith Whitt
bradfreeman wrote:
Poimen wrote:
Did Jesus sin? Did sin sin through Jesus? I think not (1 Peter 2:21-22). Let us walk even as He walked (1 John 2:6).


Jesus did not sin.

Is Paul's statement was true, that when he sinned it was not him sinning, but sin in his members?


No matter how you take this, the bottom line is Paul still understood that he was responsible for the consequences of sinning - "I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified" (1 Corinthians 9:27 NLT; "disqualified" here means "failing the test," or "missing the mark," the primary definition of sin in the Bible).

As much as I may want to ignore (or change!) the imperatives in the NT concerning MY participation in the sanctification process, it is still there....

Just my O,
Keith
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Post Re: Did Paul sin? diakoneo
bradfreeman wrote:
Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it.

Romans 7:16 "But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."


What do you suppose Paul meant by this statement?

Rom. 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Paul said it is "no longer" him that does it.

Did it used to be him? What changed?

Romand 7:21 "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

What is the "law of God" in his "inner man"?

What is the "law of sin" in his "members"?


If we define sin as those who do not, "love the Lord their God with all of their heart, soul, mind and strength," I think Paul would say, yeah I sin.

What about you?

If we change sin from a set of specific dos and don'ts (the Law) to the command of Christ, we all fall short, whether we admit it or not!
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its bradfreeman
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
As much as I may want to ignore (or change!) the imperatives in the NT concerning MY participation in the sanctification process, it is still there....

Just my O,
Keith


In context, the prize in 1 Cor. 9 is souls. Our lifestyle can disqualify us from effective ministry.

1 Cor. 9:19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews ; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law ; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak ; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize ? Run in such a way that you may win.

Certainly, we are active participants in the discipline/subjection of our bodies and the renewal of our minds. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Our spirits, however, are holy. Made holy by Christ. One with Christ. Seated with Christ. As He is. Created in holiness at the new birth. I have no part in the sanctification of my spirit. Jesus is made my sanctification.

1 Cor. 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Faith brings me the gift of righteousness. There is no boasting in what I've done. Christ is my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption.
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Last edited by bradfreeman on 1/30/13 9:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its Poimen
bradfreeman wrote:

Certainly, we are active participants in the discipline/subjection of our bodies and the renewal of our minds. I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Our spirits, however, are holy. Made holy by Christ. One with Christ. Seated with Christ. As He is. Created in holiness at the new birth. I have no part in the sanctification of my spirit. Jesus is made my sanctification.

1 Cor. 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Faith brings me the gift of righteousness.



As far as what is quoted and written above, again, I heartily amen you.

It is so perplexing to me that we can so extremely disagree on the one hand, and yet be in near total agreement on the other. Shocked Very Happy
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its bradfreeman
Poimen wrote:
As far as what is quoted and written above, again, I heartily amen you.

It is so perplexing to me that we can so extremely disagree on the one hand, and yet be in near total agreement on the other. Shocked Very Happy


I'd love to hear your answers to the original questions. Smile

I'd also love to discuss any areas of extreme disagreement. Cool
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Post Re: The only thing "fallen" for us is the body its Poimen
bradfreeman wrote:

I'd love to hear your answers to the original questions. Smile

Maybe later. Pulled an all nighter, and still have some storms left to weather here before getting the kids to school, wife to work, etc. Wink

Quote:
I'd also love to discuss any areas of extreme disagreement. Cool

I much prefer the unity of what we agree on. Very Happy
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Post I'll attempt it Randy Johnson
I believe Paul's conclusion in Romans 7 was that "sin living in [him]" did it, rather than he himself, the Paul who was "in Christ".

Yet, even this fact did not relieve him of his responsibility to walk in the Spirit so that he would not fulfill the lusts of his flesh. Just because it was "sin living in him" who was doing it, was not an excuse to go on sinning so that grace might increase.

I think we need some detailed explanation of "the law of the Spirit of life" and "the law of sin and death". We glibly quote those phrases because the words flow so easily and beautifully off our tongues, but do we really understand what each of them means and don't mean??
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Post Re: I'll attempt it bradfreeman
Randy Johnson wrote:
I think we need some detailed explanation of "the law of the Spirit of life" and "the law of sin and death". We glibly quote those phrases because the words flow so easily and beautifully off our tongues, but do we really understand what each of them means and don't mean??


It's my view that the "law of the spirit of life" is the Holy Spirit, writing the laws of God on our hearts. Where the Spirit is, there is freedom. This is also the "perfect law that gives freedom" or the "law of liberty" James speaks of. Spiritually, we have died and been reborn, freeing us from the law of Moses as it says in Romans 7 "he that is dead is freed from the law".

The "law of sin and death" is the law of Moses which "increases sin", is "the power of sin" and which "kills" and brings "condemnation". Our flesh has not experienced the new birth or been freed from the law. We groan and wait for the Romans 8 "redemption of our bodies". It is still under the law of sin.
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Post Re: Did Paul sin? Quiet Wyatt
I thought I did answer your questions, Brad, but perhaps I can say it better this time:

bradfreeman wrote:
Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it.

Romans 7:16 "But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."


What do you suppose Paul meant by this statement?

Rom. 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Paul said it is "no longer" him that does it.

Did it used to be him? What changed?

I'm including this all under one answer, as it appears this is the same question or assertion restated more than once.

If the inspired apostle were in this passage dodging his personal responsibility for sin, it would be in direct contradiction of basically all other Scripture, which everywhere assumes man's personal responsibility for sin, God's righteous indignation, wrath and judgment to come upon every soul that does evil, both Jew and Greek (Romans 2:5-11). If "I just couldn't help myself" were a valid excuse, then God is clearly a tyrant, commanding, upon pain of eternal death, that man render that which is an utter impossibility for man to render--obedience. Every sinner can in that case stand before God in the judgment and say His standard of judgment is not just. This an inspired apostle like Paul could never and would never do.

What does seem to be the case is that Paul is describing what it is like to strive to obey God in one's own strength. Note that Christ and the Holy Spirit are not mentioned in the struggle he describes. It is all "I" this and "I" that. This is "the law of sin and death" depicted.

Sin becomes much like what we today refer to as an addiction. As the sinner continues on a path of sin, he develops deep ruts of addiction in his personality, which become a cruel slavery (though not a completely involuntary one, for the sinner's heart is what must be changed through something called conversion). Apart from the saving, converting, sanctifying power of Jesus Christ, the law of sin and death continues to reign, no matter how morally upright one tries to be in one's own strength. Only the law of the Spirit of LIFE in Christ Jesus can set one free from the law of sin and death. (Not referred to glibly, but thankfully).

From conversion on, the one who is called to be a saint/holy one is empowered to live free from sin. (See Romans 6; I wonder why so many seem to want Romans 7 to be the last word on the Christian life?) If he sins, he is subject to God's loving discipline because of which he perseveres (Hebrews 12), must realize that the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, and that he must be putting to death the sinful deeds of the body by the Spirit so that he may live (Rom. 8:5-13). He now has an advocate with the Father, Christ Jesus the righteous (1 John 2:1) to Whom he must appeal for pardon and cleansing as needed (1 John 1:9), and by Whom he has the hope within him now to purify himself, even as Christ is pure (1 John 3:3), and has the promise, privilege, and yes, responsibility by virtue of his being begotten of God to not go on sinning (1 John 3:4-9) but instead to live a life of faithful, loving obedience to the HOLY Spirit of God in Christ who now dwells/abides within.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/30/13 10:55 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post Quiet Wyatt
One other thing that I think often gets overlooked in discussions on this is the question of willful sin vs. 'unintentional' sin, however one explains those concepts.

In my experience, those who object the most strongly to the idea that a Christian is called and empowered by the Spirit to live a holy life, free from the law of sin and death, generally think of things like "not praying enough" or "waking up in a bad mood" as no different from things like adultery, murder, homosexual relations, lying, coveting, etc., because, as the saying goes, "sin is sin."
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Post Re: Did Paul sin? spartanfan
bradfreeman wrote:
Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it.

Romans 7:16 "But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."


What do you suppose Paul meant by this statement?

Rom. 7:18 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh ; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

Paul said it is "no longer" him that does it.

Did it used to be him? What changed?

Romand 7:21 "I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members."

What is the "law of God" in his "inner man"?

What is the "law of sin" in his "members"?


It's interesting - I once heard a homosexual minister say he was sinless in his spirit man but sin was still operating in his body - and like Paul when he sinned it wasn't him that did it. He would love your interpretation of this because it seems to promote being saved in your spirit but still occasionally sinning in your flesh. I disagree.

And you have to be careful about "slipping in" things to substantiate your error like when you said in a post farther down.... "The "law of sin and death" is the law of Moses which "increases sin", is "the power of sin" and which "kills" and brings "condemnation". Our flesh has not experienced the new birth or been freed from the law. We groan and wait for the Romans 8 "redemption of our bodies". It is still under the law of sin."

Wrong again. The law of "sin and death" is found in Ezekiel 18:20 and other places where God says, "The soul that sins, it shall die...."

Paul says in Romans 8:2, "because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

How did the law of the Spirit of life set him free? He tells us in Galatians 5:3, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." If you will live without fulfilling the lust of the flesh then you will live without sinning and you will be set free then by the law of the Spirit of life - free from sin, its dominion, its guilt, its bondage and yes indeed its consequences.

So when you said, "Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it."- you are playing right into the hands of those who promote the devilishy and diobolical duelistic doctrine that divided the disciples in the earlier church suggesting that the spiritual element in man could be released from its bondage in matter- or gnosticism if you prefer. It has always been regarded as a heresy by the true Christian Church.

The "law of sin and death" we are indeed free from but only as we obey the command to "walk in the Spirit", as Romans 8:14 says, "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

My take on this comes from 1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Sin has no dominion - no rule - cannot dictate my actions and I can be kept blameless until Jesus comes for me as I walk in the Spirit and refuse to do what is sinful. The homosexual preacher don't like that doctrine.
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Post Re: Did Paul sin? bradfreeman
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
If the inspired apostle were in this passage dodging his personal responsibility for sin, it would be in direct contradiction of basically all other Scripture, which everywhere assumes man's personal responsibility for sin, God's righteous indignation, wrath and judgment to come upon every soul that does evil, both Jew and Greek (Romans 2:5-11).


If Paul were expressing the idea that the real "Paul" was his born again spirit, not his struggling, weak, unredeemed, corruptible, sinful flesh, he would not be "dodging" responsibility but acknowledging that Christ took responsibility for his sin...and everyone else's...along with God's indignation, wrath and judgment. Paul is now in Christ, one with Him in spirit. This leaves Paul free from condemnation, justified by faith and at peace with God right in the midst of his struggle with the flesh and his partially renewed mind (in Paul's case, mostly renewed!).

Quote:
If "I just couldn't help myself" were a valid excuse, then God is clearly a tyrant, commanding, upon pain of eternal death, that man render that which is an utter impossibility for man to render--obedience. Every sinner can in that case stand before God in the judgment and say His standard of judgment is not just. This an inspired apostle like Paul could never and would never do.


"I just couldn't help myself" is not a valid excuse.

God is not a tyrant who requires obedience of those who cannot obey. He requires obedience of those who will not obey. All have sinned and gone their own way.

God is a Father of grace and love who sent Jesus to fulfill obedience for the rebels who would not and could not keep the whole law. The obedience of Christ brings us righteousness when we find ourselves in Him by faith. He became sin, we became righteous.

Rom. 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.

Even though we still occupy the "body of this death" and groan for "the redemption of our bodies" and struggle with sin in our members, in spirit we are holy, righteous, hidden with Christ in God and one with Him.
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1/30/13 11:24 am


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