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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Rom. 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. |
That does sounds contradictory, but not if you look at the passage as a whole. I probably could have more accurately said, "sin was not imputed until the law came". Fortunately for us, we are no longer under the law so now our sin is not imputed and our Adam (the last Adam) didn't sin so we are in great shape! |
I think the hard part about understanding all this is getting our minds around the idea of what it means to be in Christ. I have never been to any other planet but earth, yet God says I am seated in heavenly places right now with Jesus.
"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,"
If I believe God's Word, I have to accept that even though I cannot fully understand it.
From a worldly point of view I am still on the earth, not in heaven.
| Brad Freeman wrote: | Death enters through sin. Death spread to all me because they were sinning - yes. But Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law so there was only 1 sin punishable until Moses. This is why it was one man's sin that brought death and condemnation until the law came and sin increased (everyone now breaks commands). The law came so that sin would "increase" (Rom. 5:20) become "utterly sinful" (Rom. 7:13). It came to bring the knowledge of sin, make everyone accountable (sin is imputed to our account) stop boasting and shut every mouth.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God ; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight ; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. |
And obedience to the Law can never impart righteousness, righteousness has always come by faith, even in the case of Adam and Eve. If they would have had faith in God, they would not have sinned by disobeying God. Disobedience, it seems, is a function of unbelief.
| Brad Freeman wrote: | Before the law came, men were not accountable for their sin (just Adam's) and they became conscious of sin. This condition is reversed in Christ! The law is removed, our sin is not laid to our account, we have boldness to enter the holiest place by the blood of Jesus and speak freely to God and the "knowledge of sin" that the Law "speaks to those who are under the Law" is gone! We are no longer sin-conscious, we are Christ-conscious!
Rom. 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
We are no longer "in the flesh" or bound by the law or sin, we are "in the Spirit".
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind ; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
Clearly, these are some of the points Paul is making...agreed?
Most importantly, grace reigns now through Christ! |
It is hard to understand men not being held accountable for their sin before the law was given. It is hard to understand because we have never known it any other way. Yet, it does say that as plain as day, but those blinded by their tradition cannot see it.
It is also hard to understand that our "sinful passions" were aroused by the law. I would have thought that those sinful passions were just naturally resident in me and didn't need the law or anything else to arouse them. Yet, that is also what the Word says.
It is also hard to understand what it means to be "released from the Law". The obviously incorrect understanding of that is that we are now free to practice lawlessness. That is not what it means to be released from the Law.
As far as being in the Spirit is concerned, I think for the most part we have confused being religious (going to church, paying tithes, singing songs, preaching and/or listening to preaching, fighting abortion, homosexuals, Democrats, and socialism) with being in the Spirit.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/3/13 10:40 am
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Dean Steenburgh |
RJ wrote:
| Quote: | | As far as being in the Spirit is concerned, I think for the most part we have confused being religious (going to church, paying tithes, singing songs, preaching and/or listening to preaching, fighting abortion, homosexuals, Democrats, and socialism) with being in the Spirit. |
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"Empty nest syndrome is for the birds!"
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Posts: 4682
2/3/13 11:32 am
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bonnie knox |
| bradfreeman wrote: | Even the Romans 1 people is error were given over to lust "so that their bodies would be dishonored".
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
This is why a man can have his entire life's effort burned up and useless and still be saved. |
That is a bizarre interpretation of Romans 1:24.
Chapter 2 plainly tells that God will render to every man according to his deeds. He will render indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon those who "obey unrighteousness."
I don't know if the "so that" is the point of difficulty here, but the context is unmistakable. There is no indication that dishonoring their bodies by homosexual acts would result in the salvation of the spirit. |
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2/3/13 1:11 pm
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | bradfreeman wrote: | Even the Romans 1 people is error were given over to lust "so that their bodies would be dishonored".
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
This is why a man can have his entire life's effort burned up and useless and still be saved. |
That is a bizarre interpretation of Romans 1:24.
Chapter 2 plainly tells that God will render to every man according to his deeds. He will render indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon those who "obey unrighteousness."
I don't know if the "so that" is the point of difficulty here, but the context is unmistakable. There is no indication that dishonoring their bodies by homosexual acts would result in the salvation of the spirit. |
I didn't say that. The salvation of our spirit is accomplished by faith in Christ.
As for Romans 2, Paul is building something theologically Bonnie.
Chapter 2 states the law's standard (every man will be judged according to his deeds - those who persist in doing good get eternal life, those who do bad get wrath and judgment - just as Jesus told the rich young ruler he could have eternal life if he could keep the law, yet he was lacking) which sets the stage for:
Chapter 3 (every man is lacking and a liar, there is none righteous, every mouth is shut from boasting because all have sinned - no one will be justified by his deeds) which sets the stage for:
Chapter 4 God has provided righteousness by faith, apart from our deeds and will remember our bad deeds no more.
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
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2/3/13 11:34 pm
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bonnie knox |
| I get the connections between the chapters of Romans. I do not get your connection between dishonoring their bodies, but still being saved. Are you saying they might have repented???? If you are, I did not see that previously. If you are saying they don't need to repent, I am flabbergasted. |
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2/3/13 11:44 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I remember many years ago when I first studied the writings of Watchman Nee in I believe it was _The Normal Christian Life_. In it, he wrote that a Christian could be sinning in his body while his spirit remained holy. This I recognized as nothing more than the stale leftovers of Gnosticism reheated. There truly is nothing new under the sun. |
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2/4/13 12:08 am
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Randy Johnson |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I remember many years ago when I first studied the writings of Watchman Nee in I believe it was _The Normal Christian Life_. In it, he wrote that a Christian could be sinning in his body while his spirit remained holy. This I recognized as nothing more than the stale leftovers of Gnosticism reheated. There truly is nothing new under the sun. |
It isn't Gnosticism. Gnosticism taught that matter itself was evil. That is not what is being said here. What is being said is that our bodies are not yet saved, but our spirit is saved when we belong to Christ. Our bodies are not evil in themselves (nor is matter evil because it is matter). Our bodies are weak, not evil.
Romans 8:9-11
"9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you."
Our bodies are dead because of sin, not because they are made of matter and matter is evil.
Our spirits are alive because of righteousness, that is, the righteousness from God apart from law that comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Right now, in this life, our spirits are alive and our bodies are dead, both at the same time, and it has nothing to do with the Gnostic teaching of matter being evil.
There are a few conditional phrases here that are vitally important
"if the Spirit of God is living in you"
"having the Spirit of Christ"
"if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you"
I still argue that these statements are referring to different Persons of the Trinity doing different works in our lives concerning our salvation and living for Christ in this world.
The Spirit of God living in you is referring to the promise of the Father, the gift of the Holy Spirit, whom God gives to those obey Him and ask for it, after they have believed and been regenerated.
having the Spirit of Christ is a reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in regenerating us and placing us into the Body of Christ when we are born again. It is not a reference to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, if anything it is baptism by the Holy Spirit of our human spirit into the Body of Christ. That is what makes our spirit alive because of righteousness while our bodies are still dead because of sin.
the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead living in us is a reference to the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is separate from and subsequent to the new birth, and is God the Father coming and making His dwelling place in our hearts along with the Son, so that both the Father and the Son abide in us [John 14:23] "Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."
I cannot prove this to anyone, but it makes sense to me when I think about it. If we take the doctrine of the Trinity seriously, and I do, then there are three separate Persons in the Godhead who form a compound unity and are one God. However, that does not mean that there cannot be specific works that each member of the Trinity does in our lives regarding our salvation that is separate from the work the other members of the Trinity do.
The Father draws us to the Son.
The Holy Spirit regenerates our human spirit when we believe and places us into the Body of Christ so that we have the Spirit of Christ.
After receiving the Spirit of Christ (being born again) we become eligible to receive the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Through the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Father and the Son come to us and make their home within us.
As I see it, the problem we have in the Church today is that we have people who have the Spirit of Christ, that is, they have been regenerated, placed into the Body of Christ, and their spirits are "saved"; but they do not have the Spirit of God living in them. Some because they were never taught to ask the Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and others because they were taught against the baptism in the Holy Spirit because of a reaction against the behavior of Pentecostals and Charismatics in the present and in the past.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/4/13 2:19 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
I wasn't referring to your view with those comments, Randy. I think the main thing you and I disagree on in this discussion is that I find your view that there was no commandment/law in the world from Adam to Moses to be based on the specific wording found in your chosen translation, which, if I recall correctly, is the NIV. Other more literal translations make much more sense of the verse in question by saying that death reigned over those whose sinning was not precisely like Adam's, but was even still a transgression of law known to them, if Paul's assertions about the voluntary moral depravity of mankind in Romans 1 and 2 are true.
Nevertheless, it is certainly true that the belief was common among the Gnostics that what one did with the body was inconsequential and that only the spirit mattered (no pun intended, ha ha). |
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2/4/13 2:54 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | If you are saying they don't need to repent, I am flabbergasted. |
Flabbergasted... I'm not sure what that looks like! 
Bonnie, the Romans 1 crowd were ancient people being spoken of in the past tense...it was a history lesson from Paul.
Faith is what saves - everyone must believe in Jesus to be born again.
Coming to faith involves a change of mind (metanoia - repentance), these didn't have a chance to do that in ancient times. But, good news for them.
1. God left their sins unpunished.
2. Jesus preached to them.
Romans 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction ; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus ; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed ; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit ; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 7:00 am
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | In it, he wrote that a Christian could be sinning in his body while his spirit remained holy. |
I believe this too. I believe the real us is our spirit. We live in this "earthly tent" of flesh with its weakness, sinfulness and lusts. Our born again spirits are one with Christ and are holy.
Gnostic? No. Not even close.
I believe Jesus came in the flesh.
I believe God created the material world through His perfect son Jesus.
I do not believe all matter is evil.
However, Christ has set about to accomplish the reconciliation of all things (Col. 1:20), prays that God's kingdom and will will be done on earth and says He will make all things new (Rev. 21:5). This certainly implies that the current situation needs repair.
But I believe nothing is unclean of itself (Rom. 14:14) and to the pure, all things are pure (Titus 1:15) and it is the "unbelieving" who think nothing is pure.
Rather than try to label me, let's talk about the scriptures. Now that we've put these baseless accusations of gnosticism behind us...
So you believe a person becomes "unholy" every time he/she sins?
So you believe a person needs to be cleansed from each of their sins every time, and if they aren't they are unforgiven, unholy and lost?
So you believe God holds each of a believer's sins against them each time they sin?
So you believe God remembers a believer's sins each time?
So you believe believers aren't cleansed "once" and aren't made "perfect forever" by the sacrifice of Jesus? (Heb. 10:2,14)
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 7:10 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | I believe the real us is our spirit. |
That is only part of us. You mentioned that sanctification is Christ's job and not ours. However, Paul does say that abstaining from fornication (something we do) is part of being sanctified. He also explains that our bodies are members of Christ in I Corinthians 6:15.
As I mentioned before in this thread, it cannot be concluded that the real Paul did not include his body simply because of the wording of Romans 7:16. If that were the case, as I mentioned twice before, you would also have to conclude from Galatians 2:20 that Paul's spirit was not the real him either. |
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2/4/13 9:07 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Coming to faith involves a change of mind (metanoia - repentance), these didn't have a chance to do that in ancient times. |
Now we get to the tricky part, huh? You mentioned that Cain was told he had to overcome sin which crouched at the door. Paul also mentioned that some Gentiles by their conscience obeyed the law even without having the law. The people mentioned in Romans chapter 1 were holders of the truth, but did not "like" to retain God in their knowledge. Is the human will involved in coming to salvation or not? |
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2/4/13 9:21 am
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bradfreeman |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Is the human will involved in coming to salvation or not? |
Love that is demanded or forced is not love.
God gives us the freedom to reject Him.
God gives us the freedom to metanoia (change our minds) and believe...we choose.
We love because He first loved us. We choose Him because He first chose us.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 9:52 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | God gives us the freedom to reject Him. |
It seems to me that "holding the truth in unrighteousness" and not liking "to retain God in their knowledge" is a case of exercising the freedom to reject Him. |
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2/4/13 1:03 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | In it, he wrote that a Christian could be sinning in his body while his spirit remained holy. |
I believe this too. |
Of course you do.
| Quote: | | So you believe a person becomes "unholy" every time he/she sins? |
A person does become unholy (no need for quotation marks) every time they sin (a willful transgression of the law).
| Quote: |
So you believe a person needs to be cleansed from each of their sins every time, |
Yes of course. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
| Quote: | | ... and if they aren't they are unforgiven, unholy and lost? |
I affirm the chastening, disciplining grace of God, by which a Christian who sins is corrected by the Holy Spirit and directed back to the path of righteousness. I do not believe one sin necessarily means one will certainly be lost, but that if a Christian decides to go on sinning, they have no sacrifice for sins and have only judgment to ahead (Heb 10:26ff). In other words, one sin is the first step in the wrong direction, and if that direction is continued in, without turning around and returning to the righteous path, certain destruction awaits. The grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and to live soberly and uprightly in this present age. He that is begotten of God does not go on sinning. (See 1 John 3:4-9).
| Quote: |
So you believe believers aren't cleansed "once" and aren't made "perfect forever" by the sacrifice of Jesus? (Heb. 10:2,14) |
I affirm that it is only by the once-and-for-all (final) sacrifice of the blood of Jesus that any sinner is ever made holy.
What I don't affirm is that it is some kind of make-believe holiness or compartmentalized holiness that does not include body, soul and spirit, that one can be holy in one's spirit while sinful in one's flesh.
I also do not affirm the sin debt payment or penal substitution theories of the atonement, by which it is asserted that all sins, past, present and future are somehow forgiven before they are committed. |
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Posts: 12792
2/4/13 1:28 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:4-9, NIV 1984) |
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Posts: 12792
2/4/13 1:38 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| I find it very important to clarify what we mean by the term "sin." My understanding is that it is a willful transgression of the moral law of God. Some confuse mistakes with sins, thus making it impossible for a finite being to ever avoid sin. |
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Posts: 12792
2/4/13 1:44 pm
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bradfreeman |
Thanks for taking it 1 question at a time. It makes it a ton easier to understand your position.
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Yes of course. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. |
So does 1 unconfessed sin leave a person lost under perpetual chastening or what?
| Quote: | | I affirm that it is only by the once-and-for-all (final) sacrifice of the blood of Jesus that any sinner is ever made holy. |
Are believers ever perfect?
Are they perfect forever or until their next sin?
| Quote: | | What I don't affirm is that it is some kind of make-believe holiness or compartmentalized holiness that does not include body, soul and spirit, that one can be holy in one's spirit while sinful in one's flesh. |
Do you believe in the new birth?
Do you believe we have an "inner man" and an "outer man"?
Is our outer man also "created in righteousness and true holiness"? Eph. 4:20
Do you believe body and soul are never perfect, "perfect forever" or until your next sin?
| Quote: | | I also do not affirm the sin debt payment or penal substitution theories of the atonement, by which it is asserted that all sins, past, present and future are somehow forgiven before they are committed. |
2 Cor. 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died ; 15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
Heb. 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
I believe Jesus is our perfect priest, perfect sin-offering and that he also tasted death on my behalf.
Why do you believe he was wounded, bruised, pierced, chastized and striped?
Why not just offer him like Abraham offered Isaac?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 2:02 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | I find it very important to clarify what we mean by the term "sin." My understanding is that it is a willful transgression of the moral law of God. Some confuse mistakes with sins, thus making it impossible for a finite being to ever avoid sin. |
What is this "moral law of God" you refer to? The 10 commandments? Is there any scripture that supports this terminology?
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 2:04 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:4-9, NIV 1984) |
The most accurate translations don't render the bolded phrase "cannot go on sinning", they render it "cannot sin". See NKJV, NASB, NRSV, YLT, KJV and others.
The word sin is the greek "hamartano" which means:
to be without a share in
to miss the mark
to err, be mistaken
to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong
to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin
I don't see any clear mention of deliberate or intentional acts in this definition. On the contrary, I see the words "err", "mistake", "miss" and "wander". This terminology appears to indicate that the born of God cannot err, cannot make mistakes, cannot miss and cannot wander.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/4/13 2:15 pm
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