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Randy Johnson |
| Poimen wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Poimen wrote: | | We can't have it both ways; if our fleshly bodies constitute us sinners then it constitutes Christ a sinner as well. |
Doesn't Scripture say that our bodies are dead because of sin, but our spirits are alive because of [Christ's] righteousness?
Our bodies are the victims here because of their weakness, they are not the source of sin, nor are they inherently evil because they are "matter". 
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Then being in the flesh, as concerns the body itself, does not mean that we will (or must) sin, nor that we are yet sinners. |
Amen! That is why I wrote earlier that Jesus sets us free from involuntary slavery to sin, with the emphasis being on involuntary.
We can choose not to sin by submitting to the Holy Spirit. He will give us the ability to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passion.
| Poimen wrote: |
That's why Jesus could be in the same flesh, face the same temptations, and struggle with the same desires "yet without sin".
Spiritually speaking, I am no longer dead in sin, but alive to God. I am no longer born of flesh, but have been born again of the Spirit. I no longer walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit, and there is no compelling factor that precludes the gracious ability as a born again, Spirit indwelt, new creation to in fact be and do righteously.
My flesh does not make me sin, nor do we have to sin, anymore than Jesus did. THAT is the point. That is what Jesus did, and does, that he law could not do for us. However, we can sin if we yield our members to do so. And IF we sin (not when we sin, as if it were a forgone conclusion) we have an advocate with the Father.
I write these things that we sin not, but rather take full advantage of the grace abounding to and working in us as partakers of the divine nature. So that we are and will be as He was in this world. |
Salvation is the entire work of God in delivering us from the power of sin, the practice of sin, and the penalty of sin.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/1/13 7:05 am
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| Re: Did Paul sin? |
bradfreeman |
| spartanfan wrote: | | So when you said, "Paul seems to say that, when he sinned, it wasn't him that did it."- you are playing right into the hands of those who promote the devilishy and diobolical duelistic doctrine that divided the disciples in the earlier church suggesting that the spiritual element in man could be released from its bondage in matter- or gnosticism if you prefer. It has always been regarded as a heresy by the true Christian Church. |
Sin has consequences, even in the life of the believer...corruption and death. This is how a man can experience "the destruction of the flesh" and still have his spirit saved while sleeping with his mother-in-law.
1 Cor. 5:5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
This is why some who were mishandling the Lord's supper were being "judged" so they wouldn't be "condemned".
1 Cor. 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
Even the Romans 1 people is error were given over to lust "so that their bodies would be dishonored".
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
This is why a man can have his entire life's effort burned up and useless and still be saved.
1 Cor. 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident ; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss ; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
| Quote: | | My take on this comes from 1 Thessalonians 5:23, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Sin has no dominion - no rule - cannot dictate my actions and I can be kept blameless until Jesus comes for me as I walk in the Spirit and refuse to do what is sinful. |
The 1 Thess. 5 passage certainly confirms that you have 3 parts - body, soul and spirit. It also confirms that it is "the God of peace" who sanctifies you - we don't sanctify ourselves. We do discipline our bodies and seek to perfect holiness, lay aside sin and exercise self-control over our bodies, but, if you have faith in Christ you not only "can" be kept blameless, you will be kept blameless.
Jude 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
| Quote: | | The homosexual preacher don't like that doctrine. |
Do you sin?
Is your blamelessness dependent on you being "able" to keep you blameless or God being "able" to keep you blameless?
If you sin, then God isn't able or He isn't willing (your doctrine) or He is keeping you blameless in your inner man even when you sin (my doctrine).
If you sin, according to your doctrine, I'd say you don't like your doctrine either.
The point is: It doesn't matter if you or the homosexual preacher like it, we want the truth.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/1/13 7:26 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Before the Law of Moses, sin was in the world, certainly. The commandment/law Adam received included only one thing forbidden, and he broke that commandment/law. Sin is the transgression of the law/commandment of God. |
What commandment did the rest of the probably of millions of men and women break between Adam and Moses? |
All mankind has always been without excuse for sin. The wicked, both then and now, are said to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." That is, they willfully reject and deny the light of truth which they do have. They had the truth of God manifest to them through the created order:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20 NIV)
All people have always had a God-given conscience which testifies either for or against one's own conduct:
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) (Romans 2:15 NIV)
Cain knew this basic moral law of God even before God reiterated it to him:
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7 NIV)
Before the Great Flood, godly people lived such as Seth, Enoch, and Noah, who is even called a preacher of righteousness:
if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; (2 Peter 2:5 NIV)
Indeed, throughout Scripture the righteous judgment and wrath of God against ungodliness (willful rebellion against the truth of
God which has been made known to them) is revealed. All men are without excuse for sin. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/1/13 11:12 am
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| Woah now. That dog won't hunt. |
Poimen |
| Brad Freman wrote: | Sin has consequences, even in the life of the believer...corruption and death. This is how a man can experience "the destruction of the flesh" and still have his spirit saved while sleeping with his mother-in-law.
1 Cor. 5:5 "I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." |
That fellow in Corinth sleeping with his mother in law was a fornicator and an adulterer, and as such he could NOT inherit God's kingdom.
He was lost, and on his way to a devil's hell, except he should repent. Yes his sin had consequences, temporal and eternal. But make no mistake, he wasn't saved and living like that. No sir. Yet, God was not willing that he should perish. If he would repent of that sin God would be faithful and just to forgive him, and so to should the church. Otherwise he needed to be separated, lest he be given a false sense of security and right standing with God.
He was to be expelled from the assembly of the called out because his works and unrepentant condition witnessed against him that he was not Christ's, and therefore did not properly belong in that assembly -- at least not unless or until he repented.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
2/1/13 11:22 am
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Quiet Wyatt |
Amen Bro Chris!
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)
You are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:5 ESV)
The man in question was to be subject to discipline in order to bring him to repentance so that he might be saved eventually if he repented. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/1/13 11:42 am
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV) |
This an interesting passage and deserves a closer look. So let's look at this passage in context.
1 Cor. 6:8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute ? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own ? 20 For you have been bought with a price : therefore glorify God in your body.
Here is what this passage, in context, is saying:
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Who are the unrighteous? These are the unsaved - they are adulterers, fornicators, greedy, etc. They are unsaved and under the law. As lawbreakers, they can be labeled for the law they break - swindlers, thieves, etc. That's who they are.
Who are the righteous? Those who believe. Faith makes us new creatures. We are no longer under the law and, as those who are free from the law, cannot be labeled adulterers, fornicators, greedy, etc. - that's what we "were", not what we are. We are "washed", "sanctified" and "justified" all by faith.
All things are lawful. Paul said it 2 times here and 2 more time in 1 Cor. 10. We are not under the OT law or its supervision and cannot be declared "unrighteous" or labeled by it. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. As believers, our standard is different and our consequences for bad actions are different. We want to see His kingdom come and His will done on earth (in our flesh and circumstances) as it is in Heaven (in our spirits and in God's realm). We want our bodies to "glorify God". We want to do things that are "profitable" and we don't want to be "mastered" by anything but the Spirit of God. These sins are committed in "the body" and some are sins "against the body". But we know God will "do away with" "the stomach" in the case of food and "the body" in the case of all other sin. We will be freed from "the body of this death" in the resurrection, when we receive an incorruptible body.
We aren't those who "live" after the flesh, we "live" after the spirit. We are not under the body and cannot be "unrighteous" or labeled by the law as lawbreakers because we've been washed, sanctified and justified by Christ. But our bodies are "for the Lord" and we seek to offer them as living sacrifices to God...we die daily...it is our reasonable service. This sacrifice does not save us but it reflects our desire to see the world change and bring the light in us and salt in us out into the world through the breaking of our earthen vessels.
Does this mean that we should continue in sin that grace may abound or take the members of Christ and join them to a prostitute? God forbid! But when we do sin with our stomachs or any other part of our bodies, that's not the real us...grace abounds and we remain righteous. Our concern is not about being declared unrighteous (because that state begins and ends by faith), but about doing what is profitable and not being mastered by anything.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/2/13 4:28 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV) |
This an interesting passage and deserves a closer look. So let's look at this passage in context.
1 Cor. 6:8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. 9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute ? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own ? 20 For you have been bought with a price : therefore glorify God in your body.
Here is what this passage, in context, is saying:
The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Who are the unrighteous? These are the unsaved - they are adulterers, fornicators, greedy, etc. They are unsaved and under the law. As lawbreakers, they can be labeled for the law they break - swindlers, thieves, etc. That's who they are.
Who are the righteous? Those who believe. Faith makes us new creatures. We are no longer under the law and, as those who are free from the law, cannot be labeled adulterers, fornicators, greedy, etc. - that's what we "were", not what we are. We are "washed", "sanctified" and "justified" all by faith.
All things are lawful. Paul said it 2 times here and 2 more time in 1 Cor. 10. We are not under the OT law or its supervision and cannot be declared "unrighteous" or labeled by it. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. As believers, our standard is different and our consequences for bad actions are different. We want to see His kingdom come and His will done on earth (in our flesh and circumstances) as it is in Heaven (in our spirits and in God's realm). We want our bodies to "glorify God". We want to do things that are "profitable" and we don't want to be "mastered" by anything but the Spirit of God. These sins are committed in "the body" and some are sins "against the body". But we know God will "do away with" "the stomach" in the case of food and "the body" in the case of all other sin. We will be freed from "the body of this death" in the resurrection, when we receive an incorruptible body.
We aren't those who "live" after the flesh, we "live" after the spirit. We are not under the law and cannot be declared "unrighteous" by it or labeled by the law as lawbreakers because we've been washed, sanctified and justified by Christ. But our bodies are "for the Lord" and we seek to offer them as living sacrifices to God...we die daily...it is our reasonable service. This sacrifice does not save us but it reflects our desire to see the world change and bring the light in us and salt in us out into the world through the breaking of our earthen vessels.
Does this mean that we should continue in sin that grace may abound or take the members of Christ and join them to a prostitute? God forbid! But when we do sin with our stomachs or any other part of our bodies, that's not the real us...grace abounds and we remain righteous. Our concern is not about being declared unrighteous (because that state begins and ends by faith), but about doing what is profitable and not being mastered by anything.
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
2/2/13 4:29 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | Before the Law of Moses, sin was in the world, certainly. The commandment/law Adam received included only one thing forbidden, and he broke that commandment/law. Sin is the transgression of the law/commandment of God. |
What commandment did the rest of the probably of millions of men and women break between Adam and Moses? |
All mankind has always been without excuse for sin. The wicked, both then and now, are said to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness." That is, they willfully reject and deny the light of truth which they do have. They had the truth of God manifest to them through the created order:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20 NIV)
All people have always had a God-given conscience which testifies either for or against one's own conduct:
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) (Romans 2:15 NIV)
Cain knew this basic moral law of God even before God reiterated it to him:
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Genesis 4:7 NIV)
Before the Great Flood, godly people lived such as Seth, Enoch, and Noah, who is even called a preacher of righteousness:
if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; (2 Peter 2:5 NIV)
Indeed, throughout Scripture the righteous judgment and wrath of God against ungodliness (willful rebellion against the truth of
God which has been made known to them) is revealed. All men are without excuse for sin. |
I wasn't talking about or inferring anyone having an "excuse" for sin. I asked the question, "What commandment did the millions of people break between Adam and Moses?"
The answer is, they didn't break any commandment, because none were given.
Your response shows the reason why it wasn't necessary for them to break a specific commandment in order for death to reign over them.
However, the reason for my question is that you defined sin as the transgression of the law/commandment of God, and in this case there was no law or commandment given for them to break.
Even in the case of Cain you quoted "Sin is crouching at your door". Do you see how sin is personified in this verse? As if it were some kind of spiritual entity with a life of its own? And it was crouching at the door of Cain's spirit, like someone hiding in wait to attack another. That is certainly an identification and a state that is different from "transgressing the law/commandment of God".
And God even admonishes Cain that "he must master it [sin]".
Transgressing the law/commandment of God is the work of sin, not sin itself, because sin exists with or without the law. Sin was in the world before the law was given, it existed, it was present, the law only identified it and magnified it and made man accountable for it.
This is why I said it is a spiritual force, and the "acts of sin" are the fruit of sin, just like the fruit of the Spirit is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is two different spirits at work, one that is hostile to God and one that is submitted to God. Our physical bodies are simply the weak vessels that are either controlled by sin or controlled by the Holy Spirit.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/2/13 5:52 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Randy,
If they didn't break any commandment/law, "because none were given" (as you claim), then God had no grounds for judging them as "evil" and wiping out basically all mankind in Gen. 6. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/2/13 6:20 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Brad,
In context, Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for acting like the world (unrighteous). If your view is correct, then Paul should have simply said nothing about their unrighteous actions at all, since they are not 'really' unrighteous in your view.
So, in your view, as long as someone has been regenerated, they can never again be unrighteous, no matter if they actually do commit unrighteous acts (sin) or not. Is that your view? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
2/2/13 6:27 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Does this mean that we should continue in sin that grace may abound or take the members of Christ and join them to a prostitute? God forbid! But when we do sin with our stomachs or any other part of our bodies, that's not the real us...grace abounds and we remain righteous. Our concern is not about being declared unrighteous (because that state begins and ends by faith), but about doing what is profitable and not being mastered by anything. |
That's not the real us?
I don't think so.
We are still tripartite beings even after we believe on Jesus. Our spirit is not separated from our bodies when we are born again. Our spirit still lives in our bodies after we are born again, so our bodies are still part of the "real us", and our spirit is still part of the "real us".
It's not a matter [no pun intended] of real or unreal, it's a matter of living according to the sinful nature or living according to the Spirit.
We still have to make that choice over and over again every day. We are not exempt from destruction if we sow to the sinful nature. If we sow to the sinful nature then we will reap destruction from the sinful nature; if we sow to the Spirit, we will reap eternal life from the Spirit.
God's grace does not make us "sin-proof" or "hell-proof", but it does give us the power to overcome sin and to overcome the world.
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain."
How do you receive God's grace in vain? By not allowing it to make the changes in you that God gave it for and to do.
This is God's word to believers, not unbelievers-
"“Therefore come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
“I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
says the Lord Almighty.”
That is God's word to us, who have placed our faith and trust in Jesus.
It goes on to say,
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."
Look at that again. This is written to believers. He says our bodies and our spirits can be contaminated after we are born again. It is not necessary, it is not desirable, but it is possible! That is why He tells us to purify ourselves.
"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,"
The grace of God doesn't exempt us from sin, it teaches us how to overcome sin.
"while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good."
We have not yet received righteousness as a permanent possession because corruptible flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Instead, "by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope."
We remain dependent on the Holy Spirit throughout our earthly lives, and we must be led by the Spirit on a daily basis and put to death the misdeeds of our bodies on a daily basis, and if we do not do so, we can and will be cut off and cast into the fire because of unbelief.
"Consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off."
It is possible to be cut off after being grafted in. And if we continuously deliberately sin after we are born again, it is the "real us" doing it.
However, if we sin, we do not have to "get saved" again, because Today (in God's calendar) is still the Day of Salvation, the Day of God's grace. If we sin, we can repent, confess, and receive forgiveness and cleansing.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/2/13 6:35 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | Randy,
If they didn't break any commandment/law, "because none were given" (as you claim), then God had no grounds for judging them as "evil" and wiping out basically all mankind in Gen. 6. |
Wyatt,
Your statement above is only true IF the definition of sin is limited to "transgressing the law/commandment of God". On the basis of that definition, you are right, God had no grounds, however, sin is not just "transgressing the law/commandment of God".
Romans 5:12-14 says:
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."
Let's followed this step-by-step:
Adam sinned by breaking the command of God.
Sin entered the world through Adam.
Death also came into the world through sin.
Those who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses did not sin by breaking a command; nevertheless, death reigned over them because all sinned, even without a command or law to break.
So, on the basis of this Scripture, the definition of sin cannot be limited to "transgressing the law/commandment of God", because these folks paid the penalty for sin (death) without a law or commandment being given.
Sin, itself, has to be something more than (but admittedly including) transgressing the law or command of God.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
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2/2/13 6:51 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
It seems that the differences in translation greatly affect the meaning for us:
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. (Romans 5:13, 14 ESV)
The law being referred to as not existing is clearly the Law of Moses. The moral law of God is eternal, however. |
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2/2/13 7:07 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Those who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses did not sin by breaking a command; nevertheless, death reigned over them because all sinned, even without a command or law to break. |
Death didn't reign because all sinned. Death reigned because one man sinned. The sin of everyone else was not imputed because there was no law.
Rom. 3:25(b)This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed ;
Rom. 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom. 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned ; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
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2/2/13 11:18 pm
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| Question for Greek scholars: |
spartanfan |
| I have a sincere question for the Greek scholars here: How do you say "doctrinal idiots" in Greek? |
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2/2/13 11:21 pm
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bradfreeman |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | So, in your view, as long as someone has been regenerated, they can never again be unrighteous, no matter if they actually do commit unrighteous acts (sin) or not. Is that your view? |
We are righteous by faith. We stand by faith. Sin is not the issue for the righteous, our sins have been forgiven and will not be remembered or imputed to us. Our standing with God does not depend on our acts of righteousness, but His grace and our faith from start to finish.
Gal. 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law ; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Titus 3:5Not by works of righteousness which we have done , but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The unrighteous can commit sin with consequences as I've stated before. If you sow to the flesh, you of the flesh reap corruption.
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2/2/13 11:24 pm
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Randy Johnson |
| bradfreeman wrote: | | Randy Johnson wrote: | | Those who lived from the time of Adam to the time of Moses did not sin by breaking a command; nevertheless, death reigned over them because all sinned, even without a command or law to break. |
Death didn't reign because all sinned. Death reigned because one man sinned. The sin of everyone else was not imputed because there was no law.
Rom. 3:25(b)This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed ;
Rom. 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom. 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned ; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. |
Back up a minute, Brad. Your own quotation contradicts what you just said.
Rom. 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
2/3/13 1:25 am
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bradfreeman |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Rom. 5:12 Therefore , just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned - 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. |
That does sounds contradictory, but not if you look at the passage as a whole. I probably could have more accurately said, "sin was not imputed until the law came". Fortunately for us, we are no longer under the law so now our sin is not imputed and our Adam (the last Adam) didn't sin so we are in great shape!
Death enters through sin. Death spread to all me because they were sinning - yes. But Paul says sin is not imputed when there is no law so there was only 1 sin punishable until Moses. This is why it was one man's sin that brought death and condemnation until the law came and sin increased (everyone now breaks commands). The law came so that sin would "increase" (Rom. 5:20) become "utterly sinful" (Rom. 7:13). It came to bring the knowledge of sin, make everyone accountable (sin is imputed to our account) stop boasting and shut every mouth.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God ; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight ; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Before the law came, men were not accountable for their sin (just Adam's) and they became conscious of sin. This condition is reversed in Christ! The law is removed, our sin is not laid to our account, we have boldness to enter the holiest place by the blood of Jesus and speak freely to God and the "knowledge of sin" that the Law "speaks to those who are under the Law" is gone! We are no longer sin-conscious, we are Christ-conscious!
Rom. 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
We are no longer "in the flesh" or bound by the law or sin, we are "in the Spirit".
Rom. 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind ; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
Clearly, these are some of the points Paul is making...agreed?
Most importantly, grace reigns now through Christ!
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
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Last edited by bradfreeman on 2/3/13 8:48 am; edited 3 times in total |
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2/3/13 8:17 am
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| Re: Question for Greek scholars: |
bradfreeman |
| spartanfan wrote: | | I have a sincere question for the Greek scholars here: How do you say "doctrinal idiots" in Greek? |
 Always glad to get a constructive contribution. Thanks!
As for your question, not sure but I think it starts with an "S" and also means "anyone who disagrees with me". 
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I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!
My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/ |
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2/3/13 8:19 am
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bonnie knox |
Romans 8
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
This is a continual process, not a one-time deal. |
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2/3/13 9:48 am
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