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Your Criteria for Performing Wedding Ceremonies
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Post Link
I'm married to an Asian, and I'm not against interracial marriage. I saw a video of Lester Summerall where he said that you should marry someone of the same race, so I thought I'd throw that one in there.

I would be very picky about who I married when it came to divorce and remarriage. I might just do first marriages if I were in that situation. But if you are the _the_ pastor of a local congregation, I'd imagine people would be depending on you for that.

I might not refuse to marry cousins, of course I would not marry brothers and sisters and parents and children, step-child and step-parent, etc.

I thought the parental permission thing might get a little attention in the thread. It did not, so I thought I'd mention it again.

When I was in Indonesia, parental permission to marry was very important. Mosques registered a lot of the weddings in a really easy way, but for Christians, we had to go through a civil registrar. The one we used might not have married us if my wife's parents had not agreed to it. The Old Testament shows that father's had the authority to decide whether their daughters wed or not. If a girl was seduced, the father could either give her to the man or not, but he still had to pay the bride price. The New Testament refers to giving in marriage-- something father's did, and I'm inclined to take the passage about the one having a virgin past the flower of her age as a reference to the father with a daughter. It doesn't make sense, IMO, that it is talking about a betrothed man forcing the girl's father to support her in celibacy for life.

Especially if the father is a believer, I'd want to see paternal consent for the wedding of a woman, and I'd prefer to see parental consent overall. A widow is free to marry whomsoever she wills, but only in the Lord as I Corinthians 7 says.

I also think marriage counseling where you take the couple through the scriptures on marriage, divorce, living right sexually, etc. is a good thing and could be especially helpful in US culture.
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1/10/13 1:21 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
In our culture, as you know, only minors have to get their parents' consent to get married, and I would imagine most adults who wanted their parents' blessing would handle that on their own before asking me to perform their wedding. So I didn't think the question was particularly relevant to our cultural situation here in the U.S. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/10/13 7:26 pm


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Post Dave Dorsey
Link wrote:
I'm married to an Asian, and I'm not against interracial marriage. I saw a video of Lester Summerall where he said that you should marry someone of the same race, so I thought I'd throw that one in there.

I hope you saw the clarification I added to my post - I certainly did not mean to imply you were against interracial marriage as I assumed you weren't, given your own. Laughing
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1/11/13 2:15 am


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Post Link
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
In our culture, as you know, only minors have to get their parents' consent to get married, and I would imagine most adults who wanted their parents' blessing would handle that on their own before asking me to perform their wedding. So I didn't think the question was particularly relevant to our cultural situation here in the U.S.


I think there is a lot to be said, Biblically, for the power to marry people off being in the hands of fathers, at least where the bride is concerned if she's never married. The Roman Catholic Church eventually began to teach that the power belonged to the church, but the Bible doesn't say that. Now, people seem to think it is in the hands of the state. But in scripture, it was in the hands of the father.
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1/11/13 2:31 am


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Dave Dorsey wrote:
Link wrote:
I'm married to an Asian, and I'm not against interracial marriage. I saw a video of Lester Summerall where he said that you should marry someone of the same race, so I thought I'd throw that one in there.

I hope you saw the clarification I added to my post - I certainly did not mean to imply you were against interracial marriage as I assumed you weren't, given your own. Laughing


I saw the post. I just wanted people to know that wasn't an idea I believed in. Smile

I thought about putting a comment at the end of my original post about it, but it was already kind of long.
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1/11/13 2:32 am


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Post bonnie knox
Link wrote:
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
In our culture, as you know, only minors have to get their parents' consent to get married, and I would imagine most adults who wanted their parents' blessing would handle that on their own before asking me to perform their wedding. So I didn't think the question was particularly relevant to our cultural situation here in the U.S.


I think there is a lot to be said, Biblically, for the power to marry people off being in the hands of fathers, at least where the bride is concerned if she's never married. The Roman Catholic Church eventually began to teach that the power belonged to the church, but the Bible doesn't say that. Now, people seem to think it is in the hands of the state. But in scripture, it was in the hands of the father.


Does scripture say it must be in the hands of the father or that it should be in the hands of the father or that it generally was in the hand of the father?
If parents who raised a child, i.e. instilled their own values in the child, disapprove of that child's choice in a mate, that's a red flag to me. Often it's an indication that the parents see something lacking in the potential mate that the child doesn't see. So generally, parental approval is a positive thing. However, I don't see anywhere in scripture where that is a binding requirement.
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1/11/13 8:14 am


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Post bonnie knox
dtgrant wrote:
Quote:
'gay wedding'


An oxymoron!


Well, actually, not! I think there ought to be gaiety at every wedding! Wink
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1/11/13 8:19 am


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Post Link
bonnie knox wrote:
Link wrote:

I think there is a lot to be said, Biblically, for the power to marry people off being in the hands of fathers, at least where the bride is concerned if she's never married. The Roman Catholic Church eventually began to teach that the power belonged to the church, but the Bible doesn't say that. Now, people seem to think it is in the hands of the state. But in scripture, it was in the hands of the father.


Does scripture say it must be in the hands of the father or that it should be in the hands of the father or that it generally was in the hand of the father?


In general it was according to the Torah.

Exodus 22:16-17
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

Here, the father has the right to give his daughter or not, even in the case of seduction. This is seduction, so she consented to lie with the man. Apparently, she likes him, but the father has the choice to give her or not.

Of course, there are lots of exceptions, like if the father is dead, the marriages of slaves, and war brides. The Benjamites stole some brides after the other Israelites had put themselves under a curse not to give their daughters to Benjamites, so that the tribe would not be wiped out. That might fall into the war bride category. Usually some of the war brides fathers, men from other nations besides the seven nations in Canaan, would have been killed in warfare.
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1/11/13 1:08 pm


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Post bonnie knox
So Link, are we still under Torah? [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/11/13 1:26 pm


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Post Link
bonnie knox wrote:
So Link, are we still under Torah?


No, we are not justified by the law, but the righteousness of the law is to be fulfilled in us.

There are references to 'giving in marriage' in the New Testament. One compares the time before the coming of the Son of Man to the days before Noah went into the ark, probably not the most complementary passage for it.
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1/12/13 4:31 am


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Post bonnie knox
But with all the references, not one is made to show this as a requirement. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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1/12/13 9:41 am


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Post Patrick Harris
I know that your children will always be your children.

However, in today's culture, the fact that most daughters over 21 are no longer under the custodial care of their fathers would preclude them from being in the hands of the father for permission to marry.

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1/12/13 10:07 am


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bonnie knox wrote:
But with all the references, not one is made to show this as a requirement.


How do you mean? In the Old Testament, the father had the right to give his daughter away in marriage or not, as seen in the seduction passage. In a society where a woman who was not a virgin was a damaged goods and there was a potential death penalty for being married off as one and being discovered not to be one, the girl who gave her virginity away probably really, really liked the guy. But it was up to the father whether she could marry him, even if she'd given her virginity to him. It would seem it was the father giving his daughter in marriage that made it a marriage instead of her just running off with her boyfriend and fornicating.

We rely on the creation account which was pre-Moses and pre-Abraham for a general understanding of what marriage is. I don't still have the book, but I had a book written by someone who knew Hebrew that said that when it says God presented Eve to Adam, it used the term used elsewhere when fathers _gave_ their daughters in marriage.

I wouldn't expect everyone to have the same convictions on this. It's one of those 'preponderance of the evidence' issues for me from what I see in the Bible. Also, from what I know of American culture a hundred years or so ago, parents and family tended to be more involved in the selection of mates before the invention of modern dating and boyfriends and girlfriends. Divorce rates seem to have gone up more as we've gotten away from that. There are a lot of other factors that correlate with the divorce rate, too.
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1/12/13 12:58 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Link, if you're using preponderance of evidence from the Bible, women are property and polygamy is cool.

There are no references in the Bible that I know of that require a woman (who is no longer under Old Testament law) to be "given in marriage" by her father.
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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
We rely on the creation account which was pre-Moses and pre-Abraham for a general understanding of what marriage is. I don't still have the book, but I had a book written by someone who knew Hebrew that said that when it says God presented Eve to Adam, it used the term used elsewhere when fathers _gave_ their daughters in marriage.


Men aren't God. (I felt it necessary to point that out. Twisted Evil Laughing )

The phrase I'm seeing in the Genesis account is that God "brought" Eve unto Adam. Some other places that phrase is used involve bringing people, frogs, and mandrakes among other things.
I guess the bottom line is if the woman is property, property is transferred from one male owner to the subsequent male owner. If she has the status of full personhood, she has the autonomy to make her own decision.
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1/12/13 1:29 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:

Men aren't God. (I felt it necessary to point that out. Twisted Evil Laughing )


But God is a Father.


Quote:

I guess the bottom line is if the woman is property, property is transferred from one male owner to the subsequent male owner. If she has the status of full personhood, she has the autonomy to make her own decision.


So are you saying the Bible, or the Old Testament, doesn't not confer full personhood on women?

Does a legal system have to be the same as our modern legal system before it confers full personhood on people? I don't see 'personhood' as the issue.

I don't think we should use our modern western culture or legal system as a standard through which to judge God's word. I see the it the other way around. Some things I've read seem to assume that God's standards are really modern American cultural and legal values, and that the New and Old Testaments were gradually nudges us in this direction without actually stating it.
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1/12/13 5:45 pm


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Post bonnie knox
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So are you saying the Bible, or the Old Testament, doesn't not confer full personhood on women?


I can't believe I've been that unclear. Women were often treated like property, not because that was what God intended, but just because that is the way sinful man is (and it certainly had a cultural acceptance at the time).

Quote:
I don't think we should use our modern western culture or legal system as a standard through which to judge God's word. I see the it the other way around. Some things I've read seem to assume that God's standards are really modern American cultural and legal values, and that the New and Old Testaments were gradually nudges us in this direction without actually stating it.


That's certainly NOT what I'm saying. But it seems to me you set ancient Middle Eastern culture as a standard through which to judge God's word.
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1/12/13 7:51 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
But God is a Father.


God has many attributes. Now if you want to make the fact that the Creator presented Eve to Adam a reason a woman must be required to have her father "give" her in marriage, you will have to have a clearer connection than just saying God is a Father.
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1/12/13 7:54 pm


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bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
So are you saying the Bible, or the Old Testament, doesn't not confer full personhood on women?


I can't believe I've been that unclear. Women were often treated like property, not because that was what God intended, but just because that is the way sinful man is (and it certainly had a cultural acceptance at the time).


Father's received a bride price and married off their daughters, but I wouldn't say the daughters were property. There were slaves, and they were property, but free daughters of free fathers were not property. But they were under their fathers' care and protection until they married and came under their husbands' care and protection, and fathers did receive the bride price.

Quote:

That's certainly NOT what I'm saying. But it seems to me you set ancient Middle Eastern culture as a standard through which to judge God's word.


Not middle eastern culture. But I do believe the actual laws that God gave to certain people in that culture are holy, just, and good.

I also realize that many of the traditions that have evolved about marriage have no root in scripture. The idea that priests/elders of the church have the authority to declare couples married by pronouncing them to be wed in a ceremony has no basis in scripture. I've read that the Romans had a custom in their pagan days of a priest officiating a ceremony in which the bride and groom said some words (or at least the bride said "where you are Gaius, I am a Gaia".) It seems like the Roman's Christianized their cultural practice and spread it.

So eventually, Christians believed that the power to give in marriage was the power of the church rather than the power of the father, which it had been in Hebrew culture and various other cultures.

Over the past hundred years, Christians in this country have viewed the power to wed to be in the hands of the state. Now, the view is that it is either in the hands of the church or the state or a hybrid of the two.
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1/13/13 3:31 am


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Post bigd1974
For decades (if not longer) preachers have long held to Paul's writings regarding "the husband of one wife" doctrine. Have any of you researched that according to the original greek translations? If you have, you will find that it speaks of having more than one wife at the same time i.e. polygamy. Translation, the passages do not refer to divorce! Am I advocating divorce? No. Have I married divorced couples? Yes. You know why? God is the ultimate judge, not me. We in the ministry have kept good men and women out of the church and out of the ministry because of in many cases (in my opinion) a self righteous attitude in regard to divorce, as opposed to ministering the love of Christ to people. Kinda like Jesus said one time, "...he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Acts-celerater
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1/13/13 8:47 am


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