Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
r/Actscelerate

The fallacy of "Care-taker Pastors"...
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post Cojak
Ernie Long wrote:
[ I knew what I was sitting myself up for on this forum by being honest with what is going in my church and like I said, there more churches out there that is like the one I'm pastoring, but no one else is willing to admit it.

I have already apologized for painting my people as Godless. They do love the Lord and they are good people for the most part. So, I'm done. Be Bless


Ernie, I am not in that position now, but I have been. I don't think I felt as strongly as you, as to how they felt, but it was similar, very satisfied with what they had. We owed nothing, but I knew these folk loved the Lord, most were over 60 some into their early 80's Back then I even drove to their homes and brought several to church 3 times a week. You are right we have many pastors in the same position. Some with more in attendance, but the same situation.Bless you
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24269
10/16/12 7:17 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. W. Ray Williams
chainrattler wrote:
W. Ray Williams wrote:
The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples.


Meeting the needs of others?

What needs?

What others?

Please be more specific. I'm serious. I hear phrases like this all the time but they are so generic, as if everybody already knows what one is talking about.

From what I have read, preaching literally means to make a proclamation as a herald (an official announcer or spokesperson). The announcement is what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This announcement is followed by a command to repent and believe the good news. The command to repent is accompanied by a warning of the coming Day of Judgment when the wrath of God will be poured out on those who do not believe.

What has that got to do with "meeting needs", whatever that means?

And meeting whose needs? The needs of the ungodly and unbelieving?

http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=623320#623320


The Great Commandment tells us to love the Lord with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourself. We are also taught, who is your neighbor and learn the story of the Good Samaritan. In other words, our neighbor is whoever is in need. We are taught to love our enemies, even pray for them.

Matthew 25 is one of the clearest pictures of the judgement found in the New Testament. In that text we learn that the judge separates the good from the evil. The deciding factor was whether they had fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, clothed the naked and sheltered the homeless.

The rich young ruler was unkind to Lazarus, he found himself in hell.

We are to proclaim the Gospel, the saving grace of Jesus Christ. We are to ask folks to believe and have eternal life. But we must be changed, fundamentally from selfish to selfless. It is a process that will take a life-time.

Meeting needs is just that....see a need and find a way to meet it.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 7:57 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Acts2Grind
After pastoring a couple of small churches I will agree that they can be quite the challenge but they helped to forge my metal in the early years. I do not agree with taking their resources away from them. Many times it is an older group of people like my age who enjoy the comany of others our age without a younger song leader trying to teach us new music when we have our favorite hymns already and they are a blessing to us each time we sing them. I attend a medium size church where they mix the music and its not bad but I see the benefit of having small churches with limited results along with big churches and unlimited results in kingdom work. Not everyone can be an eye and there are different body parts in the body. I know of churches that aged out through death or lack of attendance and I have seen small churches get back their energy and become mighty for God. I do not think we should make a habit of closing churches simply due to any one mans opinion of lacking fruit production
_________________
Smytmark@gmail.com
Acts-celerater
Posts: 534
10/16/12 8:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. W. Ray Williams
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
W. Ray Williams wrote:



I am saying:

1. Churches that are not living the Great Commission need serious and severe measures taken.


What severe measures, specifically?

I am sincerely interested to know precisely what severe measures need to be taken. Dire threats arent much help. Wink

How would you suggest a church that has lost its zeal regain it?

I don't ask to mock. I do know it's far easier to condemn generally than to help specifically. I would be sincerely interested in hearing any good ideas anybody may have as to how to reignite an apparently dying church.


I think it has to start with a genuine assessment of where the church is physically, fiscally and spiritually. It may even be necessary to assemble a team to evaluate the church, with church members on the team. I think we need to look at whether the church is attempting to do the Great Commission/Commandment? Is the Church loving God and loving Others and are we making disciples?

Once we know where the church is then a plan can be developed and implemented. Although I do not have a comprehensive list of measures that can be taken, I think we can let imaginations come up with great ideas that fit the church situation. Some of those measures could be:

Changes in discipleship processes within the church
Changes in service style, program, content
Merging with another congregation
Starting all over like a new plant


I like out of the box thinking. If for some reason I did want to placate the folks that were in the church, maybe schedule different service times that will in effect be a new church plant.

I think there are no cookie cutter answers and we should let our imaginations, led by the Holy Spirit, run wild with how to revitalize our churches, just like cities and neighborhoods are revitalized.

Now ultimately, if the current congregation of a stagnant church are recalcitrant and choose not to cooperate....we must map out a course of action that pursues the Great Commission/Commandment over the objections of those that refuse to cooperate in the Kingdom of God.

Remember, it is not about me (us). It is about the Kingdom of God. It is not about whether I paid for the building or not. The building and all that is within it is dedicated to the pursuit of the Kingdom. It no longer belongs to a group of people. It belongs to God and should be used to further the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom is not about resting, but about doing.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/16/12 8:18 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post There is ALWAYS a church doing more than yours... Aaron Scott
I would hope we would not say that because that other church is doing more and better than you are, that you must merge or close shop, etc.

I know we're not saying that. But I don't know of a SINGLE CHURCH that is PURPOSELY not obeying the Great Commission. That small, fading church down the road?--that aren't resisting the great commission...they are just too weak to fulfill it like they used to...certainly not able to do it like the twentysomethings over at Cutting Edge Church of God.

They are "strengthening those things that remain." That is a God-command.

And while I am sure that some funds could be put to better use (at least in my mind) than in supporting a fading church, I also remember a few disciples that said something similar about a woman who used precious ointment to anoint the feet of the Master.

This is NOT dollars and cents. These are lives. Some of the folks gave everything they had to the Church of God for a lifetime. When a church closes, fine, sell it and move on. But until then, let's act honorably toward these smaller, struggling churches that, however weak their voice and grip, still love the Lord and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6027
10/16/12 8:30 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. chainrattler
W. Ray Williams wrote:
chainrattler wrote:
W. Ray Williams wrote:
The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples.


Meeting the needs of others?

What needs?

What others?

Please be more specific. I'm serious. I hear phrases like this all the time but they are so generic, as if everybody already knows what one is talking about.

From what I have read, preaching literally means to make a proclamation as a herald (an official announcer or spokesperson). The announcement is what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This announcement is followed by a command to repent and believe the good news. The command to repent is accompanied by a warning of the coming Day of Judgment when the wrath of God will be poured out on those who do not believe.

What has that got to do with "meeting needs", whatever that means?

And meeting whose needs? The needs of the ungodly and unbelieving?

http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=623320#623320


The Great Commandment tells us to love the Lord with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourself. We are also taught, who is your neighbor and learn the story of the Good Samaritan. In other words, our neighbor is whoever is in need. We are taught to love our enemies, even pray for them.


Thank you.

W. Ray Williams wrote:
Matthew 25 is one of the clearest pictures of the judgement found in the New Testament. In that text we learn that the judge separates the good from the evil. The deciding factor was whether they had fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, clothed the naked and sheltered the homeless.


So I have another question, is every human being on earth a brother of Jesus?

The reason I ask, is because the King says to both groups "Whatever you did or did not do to the least of these brothers of mine..." So, is Jesus teaching us that all people are his brothers?

If so, maybe we need to take another look at the gospel of inclusion.

If not, that sort of limits the parameters of the statement to not include anybody and everybody.

In fact, the way I see it, the people being judged are not believers in Jesus Christ. On the contrary, the brothers Jesus is referring to are the believers (both Jew and Gentile), and the people being judged are those outside the church.
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 10:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Quote:
I would hope we would not say that because that other church is doing more and better than you are, that you must merge or close shop, etc.


I think the same thing about personal possessions. Do we demand that everyone who has a bigger house sell their house, live in one the size of my house and use the proceeds to further the kingdom? (Or can those living in a smaller house than mine demand the same of me?)
I heard one lady say she doesn't drink Starbucks because she feeds the homeless and with the price of what she would pay for a Starbucks coffee she can feed a homeless person a piece of chicken and a serving of fennel risotto. Does that mean she has the moral authority to demand that COG pastors not drink Starbucks coffee because it is not good stewardship of resources?
Why did Jesus not require the same of everyone else that he asked of the rich young ruler?
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 11:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: There is ALWAYS a church doing more than yours... Cojak
Aaron Scott wrote:
I would hope we would not say that because that other church is doing more and better than you are, that you must merge or close shop, etc.

I know we're not saying that. But I don't know of a SINGLE CHURCH that is PURPOSELY not obeying the Great Commission. That small, fading church down the road?--that aren't resisting the great commission...they are just too weak to fulfill it like they used to...certainly not able to do it like the twentysomethings over at Cutting Edge Church of God.

They are "strengthening those things that remain." That is a God-command.

And while I am sure that some funds could be put to better use (at least in my mind) than in supporting a fading church, I also remember a few disciples that said something similar about a woman who used precious ointment to anoint the feet of the Master.

This is NOT dollars and cents. These are lives. Some of the folks gave everything they had to the Church of God for a lifetime. When a church closes, fine, sell it and move on. But until then, let's act honorably toward these smaller, struggling churches that, however weak their voice and grip, still love the Lord and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.


Good comment Aaron. Thanks. Cool
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24269
10/16/12 11:34 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Cojak
bonnie knox wrote:

I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.


VERY good thought. And true! Cool
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/
01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011
Posts: 24269
10/16/12 11:39 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: There is ALWAYS a church doing more than yours... W. Ray Williams
Aaron Scott wrote:
I would hope we would not say that because that other church is doing more and better than you are, that you must merge or close shop, etc.

I know we're not saying that. But I don't know of a SINGLE CHURCH that is PURPOSELY not obeying the Great Commission. That small, fading church down the road?--that aren't resisting the great commission...they are just too weak to fulfill it like they used to...certainly not able to do it like the twentysomethings over at Cutting Edge Church of God.

They are "strengthening those things that remain." That is a God-command.

And while I am sure that some funds could be put to better use (at least in my mind) than in supporting a fading church, I also remember a few disciples that said something similar about a woman who used precious ointment to anoint the feet of the Master.

This is NOT dollars and cents. These are lives. Some of the folks gave everything they had to the Church of God for a lifetime. When a church closes, fine, sell it and move on. But until then, let's act honorably toward these smaller, struggling churches that, however weak their voice and grip, still love the Lord and worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.


You are so right...it is not that one church is doing more, it is... are you doing anything? The church that started this whole conversation was a group of people that doggedly refused to pursue the call of the Kingdom.

I would say that a church that is full of those that cannot do, should invite in those that can. let them be the change agents guided by the wisdom of years past. that also means that the wisdom of years past must let go of some likes and dislikes.

I am trying to not close churches due to failure or decline. i want the churches to stay open and be relevant to a new generation. We have become to possessive about our houses of worship and have not taken a longer view that the faith community needs to be a constant state of re-evaluation to ensure we are meeting the mandates of the Great Commission/Commandment.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/17/12 10:27 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. W. Ray Williams
chainrattler wrote:
W. Ray Williams wrote:
chainrattler wrote:
W. Ray Williams wrote:
The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples.


Meeting the needs of others?

What needs?

What others?

Please be more specific. I'm serious. I hear phrases like this all the time but they are so generic, as if everybody already knows what one is talking about.

From what I have read, preaching literally means to make a proclamation as a herald (an official announcer or spokesperson). The announcement is what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This announcement is followed by a command to repent and believe the good news. The command to repent is accompanied by a warning of the coming Day of Judgment when the wrath of God will be poured out on those who do not believe.

What has that got to do with "meeting needs", whatever that means?

And meeting whose needs? The needs of the ungodly and unbelieving?

http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=623320#623320


The Great Commandment tells us to love the Lord with all our heart soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourself. We are also taught, who is your neighbor and learn the story of the Good Samaritan. In other words, our neighbor is whoever is in need. We are taught to love our enemies, even pray for them.


Thank you.

W. Ray Williams wrote:
Matthew 25 is one of the clearest pictures of the judgement found in the New Testament. In that text we learn that the judge separates the good from the evil. The deciding factor was whether they had fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, visited the sick and imprisoned, clothed the naked and sheltered the homeless.


So I have another question, is every human being on earth a brother of Jesus?

The reason I ask, is because the King says to both groups "Whatever you did or did not do to the least of these brothers of mine..." So, is Jesus teaching us that all people are his brothers?

If so, maybe we need to take another look at the gospel of inclusion.

If not, that sort of limits the parameters of the statement to not include anybody and everybody.

In fact, the way I see it, the people being judged are not believers in Jesus Christ. On the contrary, the brothers Jesus is referring to are the believers (both Jew and Gentile), and the people being judged are those outside the church.


It depends on what translation you are using. The NLT says "brothers and sisters", KJV and NIV simply says "the least of these". So using this passage of Scripture to develop a theology that we are only responsible for caring for other believers would be flawed.

If we look in MT 9 Jesus was havinig dinner at Matthew's house (a Tax collector at the time). The religious elites wanted to know why Jesus was there amidst sinners (some other sinners had come over to eat). Jesus responded that he was called to those that needed a doctor, not those that were percieved as healthy.

In other words, Jesus was telling us his call was to those that were outside the faith, those in need, those hurting. If I am a Christ-follower, i must be reaching out to the same people Jesus did.

Now you and I will disagree on who is being judged. My research leads me to believe this a judgement of all people. I am not a dispensationalist, I do not take a stand on pre-trib, etc as I do not believe the Bible is clear and specific about an order of events the way it was envisioned in the 1830s and forward. (beginning of the dispensational movement)

I know there is an end coming. I anticipate it soon. All will be judged. There will be battles, catching away, resurrection of dead, etc. I believe everything the Bible says about the end of time. I just do not believe in the theoretical construct that theologians have built around their particular reading of the text.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/17/12 10:40 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Bro. Williams... Aaron Scott
You mentioned a church that "doggedly" refused to follow the Great Commission. Do they see themselves this way, or is this one person's take on it? After all, there are plenty of good men who, finding that their church isn't following THEIR vision, declare that the church is dead, isn't wanting to see souls saved, etc. etc. etc..........

Certainly, if there is a church that TRULY is REFUSING to obey the Great Commission, by all means, take their candle and give it to another.

But I wonder, my dear brother, if there isn't a large part of such categorizing that is based on MY perception of another church's actions. If they aren't doing what MY church is doing, I might think of them as not trying to follow the Great Commission.

The point I'm making is there may be no truly valid way to gauge this, since we do not know people's hearts. They may be praying for others. They may be influencing people at work, even if those people never come to their church. They may be giving generously to missions, etc.

WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE?

In a nutshell, in what measurable way do we determine that this church and that church are not fulfilling the Great Commission? I wonder if we might have thought that some of the Seven Churches were in need of closing, if we used our own definitions?

Very simply, there may be no way by the Holy Spirit's guidance to tell us such things, since doing or not doing the Great Commission may not be clearly measurable.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 6027
10/17/12 11:52 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Clint Wills
chainrattler wrote:
Clint Wills wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does.


No...but if we don't use the talents that we are given, then we can't be too surprised when they are taken away from us.


They are not taken away until the end, when we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, not now.


Then what is the significance of it being given to the other servant? Surely once we get to the judgement seat God isn't going to take from one and give that to another. That just doesn't make sense.
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/17/12 12:04 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. Cool [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 12:41 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: Bro. Williams... W. Ray Williams
Aaron,

Please call me Ray. Bro. Williams is Dad.

I am only using the clear presentation of the church by Ernie Long. According to his characterization the church was clear and up front that they are in retirement mode and would hear nothing else. they were happy and satisfied. That is all I know of the church.

I agree that it must not be a single person's perception, but should be a decision made through a thorough examination of the fruit that the church is bearing. A faith community, just as a person, should be bearing fruit. If no fruit is being produced, then the church is not pursuing the call of the Kingdom of God.

In another post I talked about the possibility of a team of individuals that would evaluate a church. Of course the best way this happens is for the church itself to realize they are no longer vibrant and alive in the Spirit and seek change from within. Barring that, we need to be able to look and see how a church can be revitalized.

You will notice I am not a "church closer". i am a church revitalizer. If a group of "saints" refuses to seek the lost, then a change must happen and that may need to happen with ot without thier cooperation. This si not about a particular person or group of people, it is about the Kingdom of God moving forward.

Thanks for the conversation. it is refreshing when people can discuss a topic without malice and discord.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/17/12 1:01 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Quote:
If a group of "saints" refuses to seek the lost, then a change must happen and that may need to happen with ot without thier cooperation


Is there a New Testament scriptural precedent for one human (or group) forcing a change on another group without that group's cooperation?
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 2:28 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Bonnie, W. Ray Williams
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
If a group of "saints" refuses to seek the lost, then a change must happen and that may need to happen with ot without thier cooperation


Is there a New Testament scriptural precedent for one human (or group) forcing a change on another group without that group's cooperation?


I am not going to force that group of people to do anything. They do not have to change, they do not have to cooperate. But...if we are going to be good stewards of the assets given us (that belong to God and not us personally) we will use those assets for the furtherance of the Kingdom. If they continue to attend good, if they choose another path we will bless them and send them off in good cheer.

My contention is that a "church", like the one originally described by Ernie Long, is no longer a church, but a group of people that hang-out together. In Revelation we see that a church like that is lukewarm and will be vomited out of the mouth of God. In an effort to ensure a church remains in that place it is encumbent on the leadership to take action and preserve a vibrant community of faith in that area.

If we do nothing we risk the church dying off and there not being a community of faith at all in that area. if we take measures, even unpopular measures, we can preserve that structure for use in a vibrant community of faith.

Many people think my view is myopic, but I would say the view point that we need to just let a church go into hospice mode is near-sighted. The long-term view is to look for ways to ensure a church exists at all 5, 10 or even 20 years after this generation has passed.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/17/12 3:23 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post bonnie knox
Quote:
But...if we are going to be good stewards of the assets given us (that belong to God and not us personally) we will use those assets for the furtherance of the Kingdom.


Is the "we" Ernie? Is the "we" the AB? Is the "we" the congregation?
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/17/12 3:50 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post The We is... W. Ray Williams
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
But...if we are going to be good stewards of the assets given us (that belong to God and not us personally) we will use those assets for the furtherance of the Kingdom.


Is the "we" Ernie? Is the "we" the AB? Is the "we" the congregation?


All of us together. The big Royal WE. The equivalent to THEY...the folks that are always making things tough on us WE's.

Sorry for the sarcasm. It is the rhetorical "we", I am speaking of all of us that call on the name of Jesus as Lord. We cannot fail to steward all that God has given to the very best of our ability.
_________________
Pax,

Ray
Acts-celerater
Posts: 881
10/17/12 3:54 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
When I was a kid, we often played dodge ball. The strategy typically was to aim at the slowest kid on the other team, because he would be the easiest to take out.

It seems to me that in discussions on church growth/health, the assumption often either stated or implied is that we need to weed out the weaklings among us, that only the strong should survive. The law of the jungle seems to be assumed as valid with regard to churches. Why this is I do not know.

While it may make sense from a competitive business or sports point of view, I suggest that it doesn't make sense from a kingdom point of view at all, even with the justification supposedly being 'stewardship' and 'reallocation of resources.'
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
10/17/12 4:41 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.