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Clint Wills |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | | Clint Wills wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does. |
No...but if we don't use the talents that we are given, then we can't be too surprised when they are taken away from us. |
Taken by whom? |
Well...probably not an AB, but it is Biblical that if we take what the master has given us and bury it, then we will lose what we have and it will be given to him who already has. That isn't to say that the pastor of a small church is burying what they have been given, and I absolutely agree that there is no "formula" for closing churches. If there is anything that needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis, it is that. My point is that if we (as ministers) don't steward what we have, then is it our place to be upset when we no longer have it? I don't want to hear the complaints of a pastor who ran his church into the ground. I don't want to listen to whining by men that get their church in debt. We deify pastors while incriminating administrators, but I'll bet that for every administrator with low integrity there are 50 pastors with low integrity (don't hold me to that number, it is a guess and not meant to be stated as fact  ). We act like administrators are the only people in the COG who are deceitful and underhanded when I'd GUESS that there are far more pastors who fit that bill than administrators.
Let's be careful who we call underhanded and deceitful. Those are VERY strong accusations. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 3:46 pm
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Clint Wills |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | | Tom Sterbens wrote: | Because someone actually does "grab" the guys talents.
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Really?
So, in the Scripture, the guy takes it upon himself to grab something from someone else that doesn't belong to him and is not his to take? |
WOW...do you actually read the things you quote, or do you just see what you'd like, and then post accordingly? I don't believe that this quote suggests that one man takes from another. It looks to me like it says "someone". Am I missing something? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 3:49 pm
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Clint Wills |
| Major B. Trammell wrote: | | Clint Wills wrote: | | Those are VERY strong accusations. |
For the sake of all of those who are interested, and Tom can attest to this:
I choose my words very carefully and thoughtfully- for maximum efficiency, accuracy, and effect.
In short, I've never made a claim nor a statement I didn't stand behind, fully.
I can't answer the other thoughts in various posts, yet, but will when I return. |
I'm not saying that there aren't underhanded and deceitful people int he COG...even in positions of authority. What I am saying is that we need to take care in making those statements. If it is provable and fact (beyond a shadow of a doubt), then do more about it than post on Acts. If it is not provable, then maybe worry less about voicing your opinion about a specific situation as fact and more about addressing the topic in a broader mindset.
If someone has done something wrong, then let's fix it. I am all for righting wrongs. But those wrongs aren't being righted by slandering the whole of COG administration here. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 3:54 pm
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bonnie knox |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does. |
Amazing last line. And while I don't advocate grabbing anything...did you read the scripture Bonnie? Because someone actually does "grab" the guys talents.
I didn't offer a "filter"...I offered scripture.
Not meaning to sound pious, and certainly not advocating that my understanding of scripture is the final opinion...BUT...talk to me from scripture. |
I didn't now just re-read the scripture, but I am VERY familiar with it. Yes someone grabs the guy's talents AND IT IS NOT ME (or any one of the 3 who were given talents). That is an important part.
As far as the terminology "filter," that is the way you presented it in another thread.
I see that while I was away, Major tried to address the point I was making. I was intentional about that last line I wrote. Glad it amazed.
Last edited by bonnie knox on 10/16/12 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 4:36 pm
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Cojak |
I read some things into this post that I should not have. First, I saw Ernie painting a very different picture, than he actually had.
Then it seemed to me someone was saying 'If it is not glowing and growing it should be gone.' Of course I do not agree with that.
I only pastored three churches before I quit.
The first was wonderful folk wanted to grow, but their pastor weren't so smart.
The second would have fit Ernie's last word picture to a 'T'.
The last one, we organized. It was a growing church, vibrant and doing the work of the Lord. Bill Isaacs later attended the church when his dad pastored there. A wonderful church, wonderful folk.
ALL THREE CHURCHES HAD TRUE CHRISTIANS, GODLY FOLK WHO SACRIFICED TO SUPPORT THE COG.
As to 20 people sitting on million dollar property, what right do they have? They probably paid for it when it was $50K property. They have more right to it as someone across town who was not wise and borrowed too much on their big church and needs the money to keep from losing it.
_________________
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
10/16/12 4:38 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | If it is simply a question of real estate, if the congregation paid for the property and facilities, why shouldn't they have the right to continue using it as long as they can afford to? Of course we know it isn't just about real estate. |
Wyatt - due to the fact we know each other, and you know with sincerity my respect for you as a theologian...
Please show me the "why-shouldn't-they-have-a-right," dynamic of life in the Kingdom.
We preach we live totally surrendered lives to Him...
We preach all we have is His and we are stewards of it...
(Tell me you've never said that when talking about tithing and giving...)
I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD KICK ANYBODY OUT OF ANYWHERE because of some standard of we've devised on church growth. WHAT I AM SAYING is that our entitlement mentality is an entirely foreign notion relative to the gospel of the Kingdom. |
Tom,
My respect for you is very high as well. I do admit this issue is a sore spot for me, not due to any perceived injustice I have suffered, but simply on principle.
That said, I guess I'm not seeing how the people who paid for a property having the right to use the property for its intended use is unjustified, but someone (or some group) taking that same property to dispose of it as they see fit is justified. "Thou shalt not covet" and "thou shalt not steal" were not rescinded but were in fact reiterated as morally binding law in the New Covenant law of Christ. These commands, to my mind, form the basis of the right of property ownership, under both the Law of Moses as well as the Law of Christ.
Question: Why would you say a big, prosperous church should have the right to own and use property they paid for? |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
10/16/12 4:42 pm
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bonnie knox |
Tom, if you want to frame the dialogue as what a church should do with its resources, that might launch another discussion. But as it is framed now, there is no separating the fact that it is not the local congregation making a decision. Are they "entitled" to? If I say, "No, they should not feel 'entitled' to their property," the default then, as this discussion is framed, is that some other EARTHLY entity is "entitled" to make that decision.
Which is the point I was making from scripture. Only the servants' owner got to choose which guy kept his talents. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 4:49 pm
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| Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. |
chainrattler |
| W. Ray Williams wrote: | | The Gospel is about meeting the needs of others, (many times at my expense) and see the Kingdom of God be manifest is making disciples. |
Meeting the needs of others?
What needs?
What others?
Please be more specific. I'm serious. I hear phrases like this all the time but they are so generic, as if everybody already knows what one is talking about.
From what I have read, preaching literally means to make a proclamation as a herald (an official announcer or spokesperson). The announcement is what God has done through His Son Jesus Christ. This announcement is followed by a command to repent and believe the good news. The command to repent is accompanied by a warning of the coming Day of Judgment when the wrath of God will be poured out on those who do not believe.
What has that got to do with "meeting needs", whatever that means?
And meeting whose needs? The needs of the ungodly and unbelieving?
http://www.actscelerate.com/viewtopic.php?p=623320#623320 |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 4:56 pm
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chainrattler |
| Clint Wills wrote: | | bonnie knox wrote: | Tom, you invited anyone to look at it through your filter. If you choose the filter, you choose the conclusion.
And who gets to decide how the resources are allocated? It is easy to criticize someone else for not selling their goods and giving to the poor.
I don't get to grab the other guy's talents just because I can use them better than he does. |
No...but if we don't use the talents that we are given, then we can't be too surprised when they are taken away from us. |
They are not taken away until the end, when we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, not now. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 4:58 pm
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chainrattler |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | Somebody please show me where a group of 20 people are given any sort of biblical entitlement to a piece of property worth hundreds of thousands of dollars...just for the sake of a bi-weekly gathering place. |
If they paid for it, or helped pay for it, it comes under the commandments, "Thou shalt not steal", and "Thou shalt not covet". |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 5:00 pm
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| So what we are saying... |
Clint Wills |
Is that short of God reaching his hand down and physically taking the deed from one congregation and giving it to another, no church should ever close?
We draw the line that it must be God's will for it to close if it is draining the state's resources, but it must not be God's will if the church supports itself. That seems like a very odd way to draw that line.
"If you are growing and seeing change, but your roof caves in and you need some help, then sorry - we're closing the doors. However, if you are 4 people that meet in a building that is paid for so you only have utilities to pay, and you aren't reaching your community - further you aren't TRYING to reach your community, you're ok and have the right to be there." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 5:00 pm
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chainrattler |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | | But where in scripture are we given the entitlement to consume a disproportionate amount of kingdom/gospel resources with no care for how those might used in another place in the world to reap a harvest of immeasurable possibilities??? |
Ecclesiastical socialism and redistribution of wealth? |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 5:02 pm
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chainrattler |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If it is simply a question of real estate, if the congregation paid for the property and facilities, why shouldn't they have the right to continue using it as long as they can afford to? Of course we know it isn't just about real estate.
For that matter, if we're going to make it about property, we must concede that there's nothing in Scripture that says a church should own a meeting place to begin with. So the insistence on 'biblical principle' here seems to just beg the question. Of course we do have the biblical principle of good stewardship, but again, if we're just talking about the property side of things, there is no New Testament reference that I know of which says any congregation, whether big or small, should own a meeting house in the first place, much less, anything that would give guidance as to when a local church's property should be sold and the congregation told they can no longer use the sanctuary they paid for. |
There is biblical precedent for taking the offerings people bring and distributing the money to the church members according to their needs. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/16/12 5:07 pm
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bonnie knox |
| chainrattler wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | If it is simply a question of real estate, if the congregation paid for the property and facilities, why shouldn't they have the right to continue using it as long as they can afford to? Of course we know it isn't just about real estate.
For that matter, if we're going to make it about property, we must concede that there's nothing in Scripture that says a church should own a meeting place to begin with. So the insistence on 'biblical principle' here seems to just beg the question. Of course we do have the biblical principle of good stewardship, but again, if we're just talking about the property side of things, there is no New Testament reference that I know of which says any congregation, whether big or small, should own a meeting house in the first place, much less, anything that would give guidance as to when a local church's property should be sold and the congregation told they can no longer use the sanctuary they paid for. |
There is biblical precedent for taking the offerings people bring and distributing the money to the church members according to their needs. |
Keyword offerings, i.e. voluntary. As Peter said to Ananias, "While you had it, wasn't it yours to do what you saw fit?" (rough paraphrase) |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 14803
10/16/12 5:11 pm
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Clint Wills |
If we want to look at the big picture, the people don't own the building...the COG does. If the church signed the property over the COG after they had purchased it, then it is an offering (voluntary). If they church bought it as a COG, then it never was theirs and the COG can do with it as they see fit.
I'm not saying this is how it should be handled, but if we are going to argue about who is allowed to do what, then let's broaden our scope. The COG can't take anything that isn't theirs - that is stealing. They can mismanage or abuse power, but they cannot make property that isn't theirs, theirs. |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/16/12 5:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: |
20 people can meet in a home. |
200 people can meet in a home if it's large enough. It seems as if the assumption here is a small church somehow doesn't have the right to own property. I'm not seeing how that is a biblical principle at all. I get that in the kingdom everything we have belongs to Him, but how we get from that basic principle to saying the poor man with a small flock should be disenfranchised is not clear. Why should only the big flocks and big shepherds own property?
| Quote: |
Jesus did not die on the cross so I could have a job...
Jesus did not die on the cross so I could be guaranteed an appointment...
Jesus did not die on the cross so that western selfish American Christians could entitle themselves to ANYTHING... |
Not sure how this relates directly. I've known plenty of small church pastors (usually bivocational, like myself). I've never known a single one who thought Jesus died so be could have a job or that he was somehow entitled to something. I've known plenty of larger church pastors and administrators who at least to me seemed to have an air of entitlement about them though.
Also, not in any way to diminish the truly good things you've accomplished in ministry, but most 'experts' agree planting a church from scratch is a very different thing from taking a declining church that at one time was doing well and has now experienced years and years of steady decline. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
10/16/12 5:29 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Deleted double post |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
10/16/12 5:34 pm
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Ernie Long |
| bonnie knox wrote: | | Ernie, I think you might be surprised to know the picture you have painted of your congregation. I looked up your physical church building on Google maps (since my Aunt Marjorie, Clint's Grandma, goes there). Honestly I had pictured a little building like one might see in south downtown Raleigh with a tiny property, a sign with weeds growing around it, used tires spilling onto the property from the guy next door, chain link fences and barred windows on the neighboring properties. But that's not how it looks. The area is what I would call a nice residential area. Your property is large and not the run down eyesore I had gotten the image. I just wonder if I have gotten the wrong picture of the people as well. |
Bonnie, thanks for the compliment.
My son and I spent all of last summer throwing away used tires, two 50 gallon drums of used oil, 2 truck toppers, a homemade trailer, picked up over 300 bricks and stacked them, tore down a lean-to(?) that was falling apart, cleared away brush, cut down trees, shoveled gravel, and pulled dead bushes up from around the church sign. All this stuff was here with the previous 2 pastors. I didn't have any help from anyone in the church, not so much as a thank you. Plus, I was working a secular job. But, I was asked why did I tear down the lean-to?
I have spent more time than I care too, talking about my church. I have yet to see anyone else describe the church they pastor. I knew what I was sitting myself up for on this forum by being honest with what is going in my church and like I said, there more churches out there that is like the one I'm pastoring, but no one else is willing to admit it.
I have already apologized for painting my people as Godless. They do love the Lord and they are good people for the most part. So, I'm done. Be Bless |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1050
10/16/12 6:38 pm
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| Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. |
Quiet Wyatt |
| W. Ray Williams wrote: |
I am saying:
1. Churches that are not living the Great Commission need serious and severe measures taken. |
What severe measures, specifically?
I am sincerely interested to know precisely what severe measures need to be taken. Dire threats arent much help. 
How would you suggest a church that has lost its zeal regain it?
I don't ask to mock. I do know it's far easier to condemn generally than to help specifically. I would be sincerely interested in hearing any good ideas anybody may have as to how to reignite an apparently dying church. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
10/16/12 6:58 pm
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| Re: The church growth movement is in many ways like naziism. |
Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | W. Ray Williams wrote: |
I am saying:
1. Churches that are not living the Great Commission need serious and severe measures taken. |
What severe measures, specifically?
I am sincerely interested to know precisely what severe measures need to be taken. Dire threats arent much help.
How would you suggest a church that has lost its zeal regain it?
I don't ask to mock. I do know it's far easier to condemn generally than to help specifically. I would be sincerely interested in hearing any good ideas anybody may have as to how to reignite an apparently dying church. |
That is a very good question QW. In the same circumstances once, I tried everything that I could, coming out of Gen. Hq., suggestions, programs etc, but to no avail. I was probably wrong, I settled for just loving the folk, not thinking of a move. But the opportunity came to organize a new one 70 miles away, so I resigned and moved. It was a great experience, I will never forget it.
_________________
Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24277
10/16/12 7:10 pm
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