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chainrattler |
I think part of the problem is the Pentecostal presumption that we can demand healing from God and He must deliver.
Every supernatural healing is a act of God's mercy, not an entitlement. When Paul described the sickness and healing of Epaphroditus in Philippians 2, he described it as God having "mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow." There was no boasting about the faith of Paul, or of Epaphroditus, or anyone else. Instead, there was acknowledgement of God's mercy in healing Epaphroditus.
Even the gifts of healing that are listed among the manifestations of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 are "divided severally as He, the Holy Spirit, wills.
I think we do a disservice to Scripture when we try to use Isaiah 53 and 1 Peter 2:24 as proof texts for "healing in the atonement" and the idea that we can force God to heal if we have sufficient faith and follow the right formula. It is obvious if one reads both passages carefully that both Isaiah and Peter are speaking about being "healed" from sin, not healed physically. It is a word picture contrasting the suffering of Jesus physically for our sins with the result that we are set free from sin and made righteous.
Should we pray for healing then? Yes, always. Why? For the same reason we pray even though God already knows what we need before we ask Him. |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 976
10/8/12 4:00 pm
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Cojak |
| roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | How do you respond from Scripture to the argument some give against their use, that if one simply had faith in God's word, he would have peace of mind and would not need the meds? |
I ask if I can clean their faithless glasses |
The BEST line!!  
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10/8/12 4:06 pm
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Clint Wills |
| chainrattler wrote: | I think part of the problem is the Pentecostal presumption that we can demand healing from God and He must deliver.
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Best quote of the forum. A few friends of mine and I were talking about this, and one guy said that lack of healing is always a lack of faith. Both myself and the third guy disagreed, but he answered it better than I could by saying, "then we are more powerful than God, right?" Obviously if we can control what God does, then aren't we dictating to Him what He will or will not do?? |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5163
10/8/12 4:37 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| While I agree that the "healing on demand" idea may be involved in how some see this issue, it does seem that scripture presents peace as something that every believer should enjoy. Those who I've known to be anti antidepressants don't see it as a disease though. To them the question is, "Why aren't you experiencing the peace that passes understanding? If you were where you need to be spiritually, you would have that perfect peace promised to believers." |
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Posts: 12792
10/8/12 5:32 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Cojak wrote: | | roughridercog wrote: | | Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | How do you respond from Scripture to the argument some give against their use, that if one simply had faith in God's word, he would have peace of mind and would not need the meds? |
I ask if I can clean their faithless glasses |
The BEST line!! 8) :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: |
They don't see it as a disease though. |
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Posts: 12792
10/8/12 5:35 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
Americans pop a lot of pills.
When its a lack of faith - I believe God will let you know. But if you have asked God for relief - and you don't get it - I see no problem with trying medication.
It's not God's best - but it is better than dying/suffering from an ailment if you don't need to. If you take enough for depression that it dulls the senses noticeably - you need to try something else.
Personally, I had a Dr give me a bunch of those - and while I wasn't physically addicted - I was mentally addicted - in that I carried the medicine with me "just in case". God delivered me from that. For some reason - all are not delivered. I have no judgment for them.
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Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
10/8/12 6:24 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
While there no doubt are some who are hypocrites and others who are simply cruel, the ones I have known have simply pointed out scriptures such as the following ones, and have not been unkind about it:
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee. Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength: (Isaiah 26:3, 4 KJV)
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. (Romans 14:17 KJV)
Do not be anxious about anything. Instead, in every situation, through prayer and petition with thanksgiving, tell your requests to God. And the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus.
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things. (Philippians 4:6-8 NET)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also behave in accordance with the Spirit. (Galatians 5:22-25 NET) |
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Posts: 12792
10/8/12 7:42 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
So I suppose the question then becomes, "With these promises being true, how do we explain why they aren't realized in the lives of some believers?"
For me, as I said earlier, I don't see anything in Scripture which forbids taking antidepressants. I do wonder why some believers apparently don't receive the peace and joy so plainly promised them in Scripture. |
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Posts: 12792
10/8/12 7:47 pm
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Cojak |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | While there no doubt are some who are hypocrites and others who are simply cruel, the ones I have known have simply pointed out scriptures such as the following ones, and have not been unkind about it:
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I have run into the very ones you mention. Good folk, USUALLY IN GREAT HEALTH, WITH STRONG BODIES (I fell victim to that thinking myself early in my life). there is not explaining nor arguing. They may honestly have made a concentrated effort, as I have, to keep my body in good shape. My major problem is hearing, i have prayed over this, been prayed for, (ever strain to have faith?) concentrated, fasted, etc. I still cannot hear.
Some folk have neglected their bodies, some diseases are there because of some habit or diet, but they are sick. So they medicate. NOW I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT, I FEEL SORRY FOR THE CHRISTIAN (follower or leader) WHO JUSTIFY THEIR FAILINGS WHILE CONDEMNING OTHERS.
I hope it does not happen, but the guy who says he has had perfect peace, hasn't had a son on drugs, his daughter hasn't come to him pregnant at 14, His wife hasn't left him for a woman, some accountant hasn't left him penniless, etc. Any of those things can keep a saint awake talking the Lord or crying into their pillow, seeking answers, and destroy their peace. Doesn't take their salvation, BUT................... 
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http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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10/8/12 8:46 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Thanks for you comments, Cojak. I think your post points out a common misconception about depression and mental illness. While without question those things would no doubt cause anyone to feel grief and sorrow, clinical depression is quite different from the normal grief and sorrow over tragedies that befall everyone from time to time.
In my view, since Jesus was himself "a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief," and yet also rejoiced in spirit at other times, emotional ups and downs are not inconsistent with the normal Christian life. Clinical depression, however, is far worse in scope and duration than occasional sorrows. |
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Posts: 12792
10/8/12 9:15 pm
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| Re: I don't want to hijack this post |
Carolyn Smith |
| Curtis Lowe II wrote: | and I am admit that I am purposely "stirring the pot" but....
Why is it ok to take drugs for depression but many consider it a sin to drink a glass of wine or a beer to "relax and unwind" at the end of a stressful day? |
Because taking an antidepressant doesn't help you relax & unwind. It doesn't work like that. Like others have said, usually a person is missing certain chemicals (serotonin) and the meds help balance it out. It helps the person cope. It doesn't make you "relax & unwind."
If you think antidepressants are wrong, the next time someone sprains an ankle or breaks the leg, let's not get 'em crutches. Just watch them stumble around or hop until it's better. I mean, where's your faith?
Antidepressants are the emotional equivalent to using a crutch. It's not an answer, and it's not meant to be long term. It's supposed to be used to help you through a difficult time. And if you've never been clinically depressed, you probably wouldn't understand. But if you are emotionally crippled, a crutch is a very useful thing.
I went through a really bad time several years ago for about 18 months and struggled with depression. I was doing everything I knew to do, praying all I knew to pray, quoting all the scriptures I knew, and it wouldn't go away. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that three traumatic things happened to me within a six month period, and I couldn't "suck it up" anymore. If I had known what I know now about antidepressants, I probably would have accepted them temporarily, but I didn't.
It was an awful period of time. I felt like I had a big black hole in my chest where my heart used to be. I now believe I suffered from PTSD for at least part of this time. I kept crying out to God to help me or to help me find help. I would go to the altar every time an invitation was given and most often, prayed alone and was left alone at the altar, feeling like people wished I would get myself together. (Probably not true, but it's how I felt.)
Two things happened that led to my healing. One, an anointed man of God laid hands on me and prayed for me, and I believe something happened in the spirit realm that began the healing process from the spiritual side. But the Lord also led me to contact the Office of Ministerial Care, and I was put in contact with a pastor/Christian counselor in this area. Over a series of several months, he taught me a lot about dealing with my emotions in a mature way (something that isn't usually taught in churches but is sorely needed), and he helped me work through the anger I was feeling at the things that had happened, and the loss of control in several areas of my life. These things, over a period of time, and a lot of difficult soul-searching brought healing and emotional wholeness to my life.
The upside is that now I can spot a depressed person very easily because it's like looking in a mirror. It's given me compassion for people who deal with these issues, and I can share what God has brought me through. It blesses me to be able to help someone walking that path and help them understand that sometimes it's normal to feel what you're feeling, but you don't have to stay there. I don't ever want to go back there again, though I have come close. But I had to learn a lot about myself and about how to deal with emotional matters before I was healed. I believe that faith AND counseling were key in my healing.
It's sad that a lot of people in Pentecostal circles make sick people feel guilty because they're not healed. Like I said, let's try out that line of thinking the next time you break your leg. Let's just go to the altar & pray for healing until it comes. Doesn't matter if you're in pain, does it? The truth is emotional healing is just as painful (if not more) and just as real as the need for physical healing. It's time the church understood that and helped people find wholeness and healing instead of making them feel deficient and ashamed.
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
10/8/12 9:22 pm
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Patrick Harris |
In 1993, I couldn't sleep, I flew off the handle easy, I lost interest in music (which is my passion).
My physician referred me to a clinical psychologist. After meeting with him a couple times I was diagnosed with clinical depression. I have been on meds almost the whole time since then.
My wife will tell you that they make a significant difference in me. I think she would tell you that it's worth it to have the old me around.
To me their not a drug or a crutch , they help me remain me.
Also, most of my friends know I take them, I try to be open enough about it so its not seen as abnormal.
Plus, there are some people who are still breathing today because I take them.  That's humor. Sorry |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
10/8/12 9:40 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| Patrick Harris wrote: | In 1993, I couldn't sleep, I flew off the handle easy, I lost interest in music (which is my passion).
My physician referred me to a clinical psychologist. After meeting with him a couple times I was diagnosed with clinical depression. I have been on meds almost the whole time since then.
My wife will tell you that they make a significant difference in me. I think she would tell you that it's worth it to have the old me around.
To me their not a drug or a crutch , they help me remain me.
Also, most of my friends know I take them, I try to be open enough about it so its not seen as abnormal.
Plus, there are some people who are still breathing today because I take them. That's humor. Sorry |
Patrick, please know I didn't mean the term "crutch" in a derogatory way...just trying to make an analogy. Glad you are "you" again. It's a scary feeling to not feel like yourself anymore.
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"More of Him...less of me."
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Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5909
10/8/12 9:53 pm
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Patrick Harris |
| Carolyn Smith wrote: | | Patrick Harris wrote: | In 1993, I couldn't sleep, I flew off the handle easy, I lost interest in music (which is my passion).
My physician referred me to a clinical psychologist. After meeting with him a couple times I was diagnosed with clinical depression. I have been on meds almost the whole time since then.
My wife will tell you that they make a significant difference in me. I think she would tell you that it's worth it to have the old me around.
To me their not a drug or a crutch , they help me remain me.
Also, most of my friends know I take them, I try to be open enough about it so its not seen as abnormal.
Plus, there are some people who are still breathing today because I take them. That's humor. Sorry |
Patrick, please know I didn't mean the term "crutch" in a derogatory way...just trying to make an analogy. Glad you are "you" again. It's a scary feeling to not feel like yourself anymore. |
Carolyn
No way. You are the last person who I would ever think meant something bad.
Patrick. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1323
10/8/12 10:02 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
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| Re: Okay for Christians to take antidepressants? |
bonnie knox |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | What do you say to someone who asks if it is okay for a Christian to be on antidepressant medication? I've known some pastors to say a Christian shouldn't need psychiatric help; that the Holy Spirit and the word of God is all they should ever need. I'd like to hear other opinions here, especially the rationale either for or against their use. Thanks! |
I read an article the other day (and I'm driving myself crazy, lol, looking for it).
Anyway, the number of Americans being prescribed antidepressants astounds me. Antidepressants are no better than placebos in cases of mild and moderate depression. I think some people perhaps react to the alarming rate at which antidepressants are prescribed when they criticize their use.
The fact that the placebos work just as well in moderate cases of depression, lets you know that an argument can be made for claiming that an attitude adjustment (or attitude acceptance) is sufficient in some cases.
Also, the normal human feelings such as grief, for example, are in danger of being defined as mental illnesses according to revisions of the new Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (just do a search on DSM-5). The article I'm driving myself crazy to find was about the open letter to the American Psychiatric Association with respect to revisions of the DSM-5.
Another point is that doctors are prescribing antidepressants without actually making a diagnosis of depression.
Given possible side effects of medicines, I think it is good to explore other options first. That's my opinion. |
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Posts: 14803
10/29/12 12:16 am
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Cojak |
FAITH... FAITH? How many times have I took my hearing aids out and went for prayer. No I did not stomp on them, they were in my pocket. I have strained to have faith, ever done that? My ears have never been healed. so back to the hearing aids, where I can sometimes communicate one on one.
So lack of faith or not, when I am not healed, the aids go back in, I am deaf, not stupid! 
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Some facts but mostly just my opinion!
jacsher@aol.com
http://shipslog-jack.blogspot.com/ |
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Posts: 24275
10/29/12 10:58 pm
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JLarry |
Only if they suffer from depression.
Who in their right mind would tell someone who suffers from depression not to take their meds.
Praise God I have never battled depression but I have other issues and I take meds for them. |
Acts Mod
Posts: 3346
10/30/12 8:35 am
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bonnie knox |
| Quote: | | Who in their right mind would tell someone who suffers from depression not to take their meds. |
Larry, I might be someone who would tell someone with depression to forego meds. (We can leave the debate of whether I'm "in my right mind" for another time.  )
I wouldn't say there is never a time to take antidepressants, but I have reasons for saying that in many cases they should not be used.
First of all, the serious side effects cause me concern. My dear high school math teacher was shot and killed by her sister-in-law who was on antidepressants. My dear cousin's husband (who was a beloved Pentecostal Holiness pastor) committed suicide while on meds, and I feel very certain it was a side effect of the meds and not just the underlying emotional/mental condition.
Also, some of the meds make permanent changes in the brain which set the patient up to have to stay on the meds.
Secondly, as I pointed out above, mild to moderate cases of depression respond just as well to a placebo! I think I had read in Consumer Reports on Health that talk therapy worked as well as drugs for moderate cases of depression. As suggested in the link I posted about the happiest man in the world, it is absolutely amazing what training our thought patterns can do to our brain. (And Larry, I bet you are a living example of the benefits of thinking positive thoughts!)
Thirdly, I have concerns that some people who are self described as depressed are being medicated without proper diagnosis. Furthermore, I think the diagnoses are probably too subjective in some cases.
JMO. |
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Posts: 14803
10/30/12 10:20 am
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| I can't answer you... |
roughridercog |
Until my meds kick in
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation |
Acts Mod
Posts: 25306
10/30/12 1:34 pm
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