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Wilkerson's Warning to the "Seeker Friendly" Churc
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Post Wilkerson's Warning to the "Seeker Friendly" Churc Resident Skeptic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5-F9_8yB9-M#!
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9/29/12 7:28 pm


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Post I so much miss David Wilkerson 4golf
So true! He preached the Word of God!
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9/29/12 7:31 pm


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Post c6thplayer1
wow... i've been to churches exactly like what he speaks of..... Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
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9/29/12 7:37 pm


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Post Re: Wilkerson's Warning to the "Seeker Friendly" C Tracy S Hamilton
Resident Skeptic wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=5-F9_8yB9-M#!


I liked Wilkerson and believe him to be a man of God, but he missed a few things along the way. I think this is one of them. It was something that he personally didn't like, but what would we rather be, seeker unfriendly?

He talked about Christian Rock music when it started getting big and he had a lot of things to say that was just off the wall and was more opinion. He went to a Mylon LeFevre concert and the request of Mylon and he said he could see demons everywhere. Later as he got to know Mylon, some of that changed.

Wilkerson is a great "man" of God, but like others, it was easy to let opinion get in the way as times changed.
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9/29/12 8:59 pm


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Post I loved David Wilkerson... drmrc
I have always had great respect for David Wilkerson. Who could not respect him? However, like any man of God, he is still a man . Therefore, he is not infallible.

So many people create a "straw man" called "Seeker Friendly" or "Seeker Sensitive" and make it mean a moral compromiser or a presenter of a watered down Gospel. There are such people but most of them do not go by the term "seeker friendly."

The early originators of the idea of being sensitive to the spiritual seekers were people like Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and Andy Stanley. These men are solid Gospel preachers and evangelicals. I've heard them attacked by other preachers who either did not know what they were talking about or who just were pandering to the crowd to get easy amens.

Here is a fact. Jesus was a "friend of sinners." He never pushed them away. He told stories they understood. He welcomed them (you know -- the adulterers, prostitutes, crooked tax collectors, thieves, liars -- the whole motley crew). He tailored his message to them so that could understand, saving his harshest words for those who felt being sensitive to the hurts, pains, and point of view of such people was a compromise.

Missionaries must "seeker sensitive" people. When you go cross culturally with the Gospel, you must be sensitive to the people you are trying to reach. You must choose words and methods to convey God's truth in a way the people Jesus called you to understand. Effective missionaries work hard at not needlessly offending the people they want to reach by a lack of sensitivity. They build bridges not walls, so that the pure message of the cross can be delivered.

Paul was "seeker sensitive". 1 Corinthians 9:19-22, "But I make myself a slave to all people to win as many as I can. To the Jews I became like a Jew to win the Jews. I myself am not ruled by the law. But to those who are ruled by the law I became like a person who is ruled by the law. I did this to win those who are ruled by the law. To those who are without the law I became like a person who is without the law. I did this to win those people who are without the law. (But really, I am not without God's law—I am ruled by Christ's law.) To those who are weak, I became weak so I could win the weak. I have become all things to all people so I could save some of them in any way possible." (NCV)

The Church is the only Institution on the planet that exists for people who are not its members. Dietrich Bonheoffer said, "Jesus was a man for others and unless we are a church for others, we are not the church of Jesus Christ." If we are not carefully we will become a "church for us." We will find ourselves providing weekly nostalgic experiences that have little or no meaning or relvance for the people we are called to reach. This will eventually lead to pastors providing "hospice care" to keep the church comfortable as it slowly dies.

I am sorry. I got more "fired up" as I wrote this. One day maybe we can stop judging others and and examine ourselves

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9/29/12 9:57 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Uh, brothers......

Let me ask you something. Forget titles like "seeker" for a moment. Was Wilkerson addressing some serious, relevant areas of concern in the modern church or not, even if you don't like the title he attached to it? Do you see any similarities between what Wilkerson described and what you perceive to be "seeker sensitive"? It seems he was referring to this obsession with being "accommodating' and trying to make people feel "comfortable",etc.

And as for Christian rock. I listen to allot of it, mainly from the 80's. But Wilkerson had some valid points and these guys should be a little more teachable and open to rebuke. Most young people , especially from the 60's on, who take on bizarre forms of dress, do so out of rebellion, rage, a need for acceptance, and a million other inner hang-ups. We do not need to mimic THEM by embracing the "look" that stems from inner hang-ups that Jesus is trying to set them free from!! We weaken the gospel when we do so. We can play good music with a rock sound that has a strong gospel message, but we will be more effective in producing real converts by dressing normally when we do so. Then those we are ministering to will say, "Wow, he plays good music, but he does not feel the need to dress wildly like me. He has an inner security that I want! I'm tired of living and looking this way and I want the freedom they have!!" Some Christian rockers remind me of a preacher I heard who says he drives a Cadillac,and then goes and shows it off to the inner city gang members "so they'll see that they don't have to sell drugs to have a fancy ride. See what the preacher drives?!" I kid you not!! Instead he should be preaching a message pf repentance that frees those boys from their covetousness "which is IDOLATRY"!

God never intended for Christian rock artists to wear sadomasochist, tight fitting, crutch hugging leather garb, or to have their bare chests showing, or to have androgynist painted faces. Nor do we need to go overboard with the entertainment aspect with wild lights and smoke bombs. It's fine for it to sound like a rock concert, but it need not look like one. So even if Wilkerson slightly missed it on that point, he still offered a much needed reproof to the Christian rock community. In fact, all the "Christian entertainment industry" needs a dose of this kind of preaching.
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Post philunderwood
Quote:
residentskeptic wrote:
God never intended for Christian rock artists to wear sadomasochist, tight fitting, crutch hugging leather garb, or to have their bare chests showing, or to have androgynist painted faces.


Who does that?

Quote:
drmrc wrote:
The early originators of the idea of being sensitive to the spiritual seekers were people like Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and Andy Stanley. These men are solid Gospel preachers and evangelicals. I've heard them attacked by other preachers who either did not know what they were talking about or who just were pandering to the crowd to get easy amens.


Cha-Ching!



People, in this century (seeker sensitive was so 20th Century), we MUST watch out for are people like Johnson & Sterbens. (See, that even sounds like a personal injury law firm, doesn't it?) That right there is enough to extrapolate something negative and insidious about what and how they do and how far they'll go.
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9/29/12 10:57 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Quote:
Missionaries must "seeker sensitive" people. When you go cross culturally with the Gospel, you must be sensitive to the people you are trying to reach. You must choose words and methods to convey God's truth in a way the people Jesus called you to understand. Effective missionaries work hard at not needlessly offending the people they want to reach by a lack of sensitivity. They build bridges not walls, so that the pure message of the cross can be delivered.


But one does not need to water down the message in the process. Whatever "method" you use, if it does not bring the knowledge of sin, conviction of sin, and the need and opportunity of salvation by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, then it's not the gospel.
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9/29/12 11:09 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
philunderwood wrote:
Quote:
residentskeptic wrote:
God never intended for Christian rock artists to wear sadomasochist, tight fitting, crutch hugging leather garb, or to have their bare chests showing, or to have androgynist painted faces.


Who does that?

Quote:
drmrc wrote:
The early originators of the idea of being sensitive to the spiritual seekers were people like Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and Andy Stanley. These men are solid Gospel preachers and evangelicals. I've heard them attacked by other preachers who either did not know what they were talking about or who just were pandering to the crowd to get easy amens.


Cha-Ching!



People, in this century (seeker sensitive was so 20th Century), we MUST watch out for are people like Johnson & Sterbens. (See, that even sounds like a personal injury law firm, doesn't it?) That right there is enough to extrapolate something negative and insidious about what and how they do and how far they'll go.


Maybe I'm older than you. Allot of Christian artists from the 80's and 90's did what I described. If they don't now, great. But the entertainment aspect is still a problem. As for the second part of your post, you'll have to elaborate. Thanks.
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9/29/12 11:13 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
Resident Skeptic wrote:
philunderwood wrote:
Quote:
residentskeptic wrote:
God never intended for Christian rock artists to wear sadomasochist, tight fitting, crutch hugging leather garb, or to have their bare chests showing, or to have androgynist painted faces.


Who does that?

Quote:
drmrc wrote:
The early originators of the idea of being sensitive to the spiritual seekers were people like Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and Andy Stanley. These men are solid Gospel preachers and evangelicals. I've heard them attacked by other preachers who either did not know what they were talking about or who just were pandering to the crowd to get easy amens.


Cha-Ching!



People, in this century (seeker sensitive was so 20th Century), we MUST watch out for are people like Johnson & Sterbens. (See, that even sounds like a personal injury law firm, doesn't it?) That right there is enough to extrapolate something negative and insidious about what and how they do and how far they'll go.


Maybe I'm older than you. Allot of Christian artists from the 80's and 90's did what I described. If they don't now, great. But the entertainment aspect is still a problem. As for the second part of your post, you'll have to elaborate. Thanks.


Totally wrong skeptic.

Wilkerson completely wrong on Mylon - and Wilkerson knew it. Don't give me the "a lot of Christian artist stuff" - Mylon did none of those things - and Wilkerson called him out. He missed it. Lyrics to Mylon's songs were powerful, and Mylon often preached for over an hour at his "concerts" - but music too loud for Wilkerson. He missed it - and I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on.
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9/29/12 11:50 pm


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Post Resident Skeptic
Quote:
I, and most of my generation, tuned Wilkerson out from that moment on.


Yes, and it shows in your generation, too. I was only 20 when he made that statement, so I guess I was one of the few in that generation who accepted godly reproof. I think Mylon is great. But he too was guilty of the attitude, "I need to look like a rocker to win young people". I love Petra. They were one of the most sold. But they also went a little overboard at times. But again, it's not just Christian rock. It's ALL Christian entertainment.

But the video I linked nor this topic was meant to be about Christian rock anyway. Did you listen to the message?
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9/30/12 6:57 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
Did you listen to the message?



I have listened to about half of it (about 13 minutes or so). The person who posted it might have done a disservice by showing pictures of particular individuals. Wilkerson said he would not name names because it wasn't about the character of the individuals; it was about the message they were preaching (though he did go on to describe the character flaw of worldly ambition).
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Post Patrick Harris
I listened to the message.

He generalized everyone into one lump and totally missed it. Given his perspective he wouldn't like my church because its to comfortable.

It falls under the "we've always done it this way" category.

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9/30/12 7:47 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
Did you listen to the message?



I have listened to about half of it (about 13 minutes or so). The person who posted it might have done a disservice by showing pictures of particular individuals. Wilkerson said he would not name names because it wasn't about the character of the individuals; it was about the message they were preaching (though he did go on to describe the character flaw of worldly ambition).


Point taken. I didn't pay much attention to those pics. Wilkerson probably would not approve of the use of them. But that makes this topic even more interesting IMO. Very Happy
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9/30/12 7:53 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
Patrick Harris wrote:
I listened to the message.

He generalized everyone into one lump and totally missed it. Given his perspective he wouldn't like my church because its to comfortable.

It falls under the "we've always done it this way" category.

Patrick


WHO did he lump? He didn't even name names. He spoke of a philosophy that either one is guilty of or not. And I think YOU are mis-characterizing what he meant by "comfortable". He was referring to those who bend over backwards to accommodate and never allow the Holy Ghost to bring conviction because they don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable. If you're not guilty of that, then why worry?
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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
Here is a fact. Jesus was a "friend of sinners." He never pushed them away. He told stories they understood. He welcomed them (you know -- the adulterers, prostitutes, crooked tax collectors, thieves, liars -- the whole motley crew). He tailored his message to them so that could understand, saving his harshest words for those who felt being sensitive to the hurts, pains, and point of view of such people was a compromise.


However, Jesus never sought to placate sinners in their sin.
Was it "comfortable" for Zacchaeus when he realized he had been defrauding people? Was it "comfortable" for the woman at the well to be told the man she had was not her husband?
When he extended acceptance to the woman caught in adultery, it was not an acceptance of the sin she was in. He offered her a different identity: "go and sin no more."
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9/30/12 8:23 am


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Post bradfreeman
bonnie knox wrote:
However, Jesus never sought to placate sinners in their sin.
Was it "comfortable" for Zacchaeus when he realized he had been defrauding people?


Salvation came to Zaccheus house before he offered to pay people back. There is no record of Jesus telling Zaccheus he had been defrauding people. It was the goodness of God that led Zaccheus to change. Goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Quote:
Was it "comfortable" for the woman at the well to be told the man she had was not her husband?


Jesus never told this woman she had to move out before He would give her living water. He offered her the water of life before there was any mention about her lifestyle. He never told her to move out. Goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Quote:
When he extended acceptance to the woman caught in adultery, it was not an acceptance of the sin she was in. He offered her a different identity: "go and sin no more."


He gave her the gift of no condemnation before there was any discussion about a change in lifestyle. His goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Offering people the goodness of God, the rest, the blessing, the comfort He brings changes people. It leads them to repentance.
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Post Resident Skeptic
bonnie knox wrote:
Quote:
Here is a fact. Jesus was a "friend of sinners." He never pushed them away. He told stories they understood. He welcomed them (you know -- the adulterers, prostitutes, crooked tax collectors, thieves, liars -- the whole motley crew). He tailored his message to them so that could understand, saving his harshest words for those who felt being sensitive to the hurts, pains, and point of view of such people was a compromise.


However, Jesus never sought to placate sinners in their sin.
Was it "comfortable" for Zacchaeus when he realized he had been defrauding people? Was it "comfortable" for the woman at the well to be told the man she had was not her husband?
When he extended acceptance to the woman caught in adultery, it was not an acceptance of the sin she was in. He offered her a different identity: "go and sin no more."


Exactly!! Someone on this thread commented that Wilkerson was building a "straw man" to argue with. But in reality, it seems they are the one ,along with others here, that is building the "straw man". When has Wilkerson ever questioned that we are to be "friends of the sinner"? How do they get that out this message I posted? We're talking about the man that crawled in the filthy slums of New York City with violent gang members and addicts, walking around in his socks because he gave his shoes away! But one thing he didn't feel the need to do was to grease his hair back, put on a black leather jacket and act like Fonzie (this was 1958) in order to "accommodate" them , or to make them feel more "comfortable" with his message.

Thank you Bonnie for a great post.
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9/30/12 11:25 am


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Post Resident Skeptic
bradfreeman wrote:
bonnie knox wrote:
However, Jesus never sought to placate sinners in their sin.
Was it "comfortable" for Zacchaeus when he realized he had been defrauding people?


Salvation came to Zaccheus house before he offered to pay people back. There is no record of Jesus telling Zaccheus he had been defrauding people. It was the goodness of God that led Zaccheus to change. Goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Quote:
Was it "comfortable" for the woman at the well to be told the man she had was not her husband?


Jesus never told this woman she had to move out before He would give her living water. He offered her the water of life before there was any mention about her lifestyle. He never told her to move out. Goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Quote:
When he extended acceptance to the woman caught in adultery, it was not an acceptance of the sin she was in. He offered her a different identity: "go and sin no more."


He gave her the gift of no condemnation before there was any discussion about a change in lifestyle. His goodness leads to change. Change doesn't lead to His goodness.

Offering people the goodness of God, the rest, the blessing, the comfort He brings changes people. It leads them to repentance.


And it's God's goodness that is going to obligate Him to send sinners to a Devil's hell to burn forever, too. The very thought that God bring salvation without repentance is a lie from the pit of hell.

No, he did not offer the women of Samaria anything. He told IF she knew who he was, she would have asked him. She was clueless as to who he really was UNTIL HE EXPOSED HER SIN.

Jesus did not have to condemn the woman caught in adultery because the Law had already taken care of that. The Law did what it was designed to do. It condemned her and caused her to fall at the feet of a Savior for grace.

True conversion will NOT happen without a sinner realizing first he is condemned.
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9/30/12 11:32 am


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Post bonnie knox
Quote:
When has Wilkerson ever questioned that we are to be "friends of the sinner"? How do they get that out this message I posted? We're talking about the man that crawled in the filthy slums of New York City with violent gang members and addicts, walking around in his socks because he gave his shoes away!


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