Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
r/Actscelerate

Can Ladies Serve as Deacons?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post Link
Quiet Wyatt wrote:

Church history indicates ladies served as bishops, elders and deacons up until the fourth century AD, when church councils first began restricting those offices to men.


Do you have any historical sources for lady bishops and elders? The Bible talks about 'older women'. Is there any clear historical evidence of this being considered the same office as presbuteros in that time period?
_________________
Link
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11845
3/8/12 7:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Nah, I just made that up. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/8/12 8:06 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Link
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Nah, I just made that up.

Question Question Question Rolling Eyes
_________________
Link
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11845
3/8/12 9:14 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
It sure seemed like you were implying I just made that up or that I was saying something that is not true. I have no reason whatsoever for making something like this up, nor can I imagine anyone having a reason to just make something like that up.

Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 3/8/12 9:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/8/12 9:19 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Link
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
It sure seemed like you were implying I just made that up or that I was saying something that is not true.


No, I just wanted you to point me to the source if you recalled where you read it. Maybe I could find it online and look it up.
_________________
Link
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11845
3/8/12 9:19 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Da Sheik
This is an example of word study fallacy. I Timothy is intended to outline requirements for overseers and deacons. Romans 16 is not a statement on requirements for a deacon. The fact that Phoebe was a servant of the church is not a proof that she occupied an office of a deaconess. Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
3/8/12 9:22 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
It is precisely the same word as Paul uses in 1 Tim. 3. Not 'deaconess' but 'diakonos', the very same word translated as 'deacon' 'minister' or 'servant'. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/8/12 9:27 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Link
Da Sheik wrote:
This is an example of word study fallacy. I Timothy is intended to outline requirements for overseers and deacons. Romans 16 is not a statement on requirements for a deacon. The fact that Phoebe was a servant of the church is not a proof that she occupied an office of a deaconess.


Can you show me a passage which mentions 'the office of deaconess' in Greek or makes a distinction between being a servant and holding the office of servant?
_________________
Link
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11845
3/8/12 10:30 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Delete bradfreeman
delete
_________________
I'm not saved because I'm good. I'm saved because He's good!

My website: www.bradfreeman.com
My blog: http://bradcfreeman.tumblr.com/
Acts-dicted
Posts: 9027
3/9/12 6:19 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Poimen
Da Sheik wrote:
This is an example of word study fallacy. I Timothy is intended to outline requirements for overseers and deacons. Romans 16 is not a statement on requirements for a deacon. The fact that Phoebe was a servant of the church is not a proof that she occupied an office of a deaconess.


I concur.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
3/9/12 9:40 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Reply with quote
Post InspiredHillbilly
Link wrote:
InspiredHillbilly wrote:

I totally agree that single men should not be deacons, and should not be pastors (bishops). If I never get married, I'll never be qualified to be a Senior Pastor of a church and will always have to be an associate, or evangelist, or teacher. I think it shows wisdom to not have single men in that area.


Why would you qualify as an associate? I could follow your reasoning up to that point.


I think you and I would have to first make sure we agree on what the definition of Associate is... and the duties thereof. In one church he may have authority over counseling, visitation, etc.

In others, he's an administrative role, overseeing the yearly budget, capital campaigns, business office, and ministry reports.

When I say Associate... I mean more of the latter.
_________________
Rev. C. Todd Robbins
Evangelist - Emmanuel Churches of Christ

The Greatest Risk... is the Risk of Regret...
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2120
3/9/12 9:49 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Another perspective Joshua Henson
I find the entire book of 1 Timothy to be problematic regarding the issue of women in authority. I don't think anyone on either side of the debate can undervalue the complexity of the content. If we take it completely literally (verse by verse), then the debate becomes more than a debate on just women in authority...there's many tough sayings in the book.

If we try to look at it contextually, we may jump off into personal opinion more than fact.

Here's what I do know...

1) There were clearly issues with the women in the Ephesian church. We cannot undervalue this premise. Notice Paul's salutation to Timothy "As I urged you when I went into Macedonia--remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, (4) nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. (5) Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith, (6) from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk," (1 Tim 1:3-6)

Notice what Paul writes later of young widows "(13)And besides they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house, and not only idle but also gossips and busybodies, saying things which they ought not...(15)For some have already turned aside after Satan" (5:13-15) If we view the New Testament exhortations regarding government as "descriptive rather than prescriptive", then this may help explain Paul's stance in 1 Tim. Is there any explicit statement that expresses these views for every local church or was this specific to the Ephesian church?

2) Paul writes in the masculine, because he is talking about men. It is obvious that 1 Tim 3 would be written in terms of the man, because Paul prefaces it this way "This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work." Could it be that the passage is gender specific by virtue of writing style not interpretive intent?

3) The deacon/deaconess argument is flawed. Romans 16 is not a contradiction of 1 Timothy 3. Someone on here wrote something to the effect that diakonos can be translated as "deacon, minister, servant" and this is very true. Paul's use of "presbuteros" (Elder) is a great example of this. The word is used to translate as "elder women" (1 Tim 5:2) and "elders that rule" (1 Tim 5:17).

So there is a difference between the office of the elder and mature/elderly people but the same word. Likewise there could very easily be a difference between Romans 16 (Greek1249 - deacon, servant, minister) and the office of a deacon (1 Tim 3:10 - Greek 1247). We cannot say without a doubt that Phoebe was or was not holding the office of the deacon. We truly don't know, but there is a slight difference in the Greek word.


I just want to state for the record that I am deeply conflicted about this issue. I'm personally at a point that I'm really neutral on the issue. There can be good discussion on both sides. I would vote yes to women Bishops, because I believe that they are already serving the biblical role of bishops as pastors. I believe the COG took a stance on this without really wanting to. Now its just a matter of control and ego.

I would just love for the COG to make up its mind and deal with the consequences. I personally feel to vote down the bishops issue for women and then to allow women on church councils was hypocritical. I wish we would either be 100% against it or 100% for it as a denomination. I felt that the church and pastor council vote was simply trying to appease women and that's unfair to great women of God.

I believe its hypocritical to allow women to pastor, but not allow them to be Bishops. We need to make a stand either way.


Here's an idea...just get rid of the stupid "bishop" title anyway...actually, how about not using bishop, deacon or elder...that'll be good. Very Happy
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/9/12 11:21 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Now here is a funny thing: Paul says in 1 Tim 3 that a deacon should be the husband of one wife. Then when the very same apostle says in Rom 16 that the lady Phebe IS a deacon/servant/minister, the fact is dismissed as a 'word study fallacy.'

It is not unlike when John MacArthur tries to deny that Paul says in 1 Cor 11 that wmen may prophesy, since a few chapters later Paul says women must keep silent in the churches.

Sounds like a presupposition fallacy is what's really going on. :lol
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/9/12 11:32 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Joshua Henson
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Now here is a funny thing: Paul says in 1 Tim 3 that a deacon should be the husband of one wife. Then when the very same apostle says in Rom 16 that the lady Phebe IS a deacon/servant/minister, the fact is dismissed as a 'word study fallacy.'

It is not unlike when John MacArthur tries to deny that Paul says in 1 Cor 11 that wmen may prophesy, since a few chapters later Paul says women must keep silent in the churches.

Sounds like a presupposition fallacy is what's really going on. :lol


I'm generally in favor of women in these roles, yet I feel that this is a word study fallacy.

1 Tim 3 and Romans 16:1 are not contradictions. Phoebe is a "deacon/servant/minister" (Greek 1249), but did not necessarily hold the office of deacon (Greek 1247).

There is a difference. See my discussion from the previous post on this. Paul distinguishes the term and the office, both with elders and deacons.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/9/12 11:49 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Joshua Henson
Link wrote:
Da Sheik wrote:
This is an example of word study fallacy. I Timothy is intended to outline requirements for overseers and deacons. Romans 16 is not a statement on requirements for a deacon. The fact that Phoebe was a servant of the church is not a proof that she occupied an office of a deaconess.


Can you show me a passage which mentions 'the office of deaconess' in Greek or makes a distinction between being a servant and holding the office of servant?


1 Timothy 3:10 "office of a deacon" (G1247)

Phoebe as a deaconess (G1249)

The word means "deacon, servant, minister"
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/9/12 11:53 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Though one is the noun form and the other is the verb form, interestingly enough it is the noun form which Phebe is referred to as, which would be the 'office' (if in fact our concept of 'office' is even correct).

In one of the most powerful statements on ministry and leadership which Jesus ever gave, it is clear that He didn't see the office or title as having real meaning apart from the verb of serving:

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The terms above for "serve" and "servant" are the verb and noun forms for deacon/servant/minister.

If we say a man is pastoring, do we mean he's not a pastor? (False shepherds excepted, of course).
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/9/12 11:54 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
How can a person truly serve if they are not a servant? How can anyone truly minister if they are not a minister? [Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12784
3/9/12 12:01 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Joshua Henson
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Though one is the noun form and the other is the verb form, interestingly enough it is the noun form which Phebe is referred to as, which would be the 'office' (if in fact our concept of 'office' is even correct.

In one of the most powerful statements on ministry and leadership which Jesus ever gave, it is clear that He didn't see the office or title as having real meaning apart from the verb of serving:

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”


I do believe we look at "office" differently. We look at "office" as a position, the NT church looked at "office" as an action, something that someone did, and a ministry.

My point is that Romans 16 is not proof of some contradiction of Scripture here. It opens the door for discussion, but does not prove anything either way.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/9/12 12:01 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Joshua Henson
Quiet Wyatt wrote:

Matt 20:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 “It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

The terms above for "serve" and "servant" are the verb and noun forms for deacon/servant/minister.

If we say a man is pastoring, do we mean he's not a pastor? (False shepherds excepted, of course).


I agree completely with what you were saying.

The point is that we do not know the specific intent of Paul's usage here.
I agree with your statement, but...

Was she a deacon, a servant, or a minister?

In church today...you can "serve" from many positions.

The custodian serves...The deacon serves...The pastor serves, but that does not always mean that custodian, deacon and pastor are the same person or hold the same office.

We differentiate between these with different terms, but the NT church may not have done this.
_________________
Joshua Henson
Senior Pastor at Pensacola Worship Center
www.pwccog.com
www.ecclesialleadership.com
Friendly Face
Posts: 379
3/9/12 12:06 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Da Sheik
Let's look at another fallacy QW. Galatians 3:28 is often cited as a proof for women overseers and/or deacons. The supposition is that all gender distinctions/roles are set aside in Christ. Using this logic, one could easily use this as support that a homosexual lifestyle isn't sinful. After all, if there are literally no male or female roles....well you can connect the dots.

However Galatians 3:28 is talking about the call to salvation and the nature of faith. Truly anyone (male, female, bond, free, Jew, Gentile) can accept the call to salvation. To use this text as a proof that women are acceptable deacon(esses) would be an inappropriate use of this text. I view the usage of Romans 16 and the case of Phoebe as a similar fallacy. Romans 16 is not set forth as a list of qualifications for the office of a deacon. I Timothy and Titus clearly are. And they make it clear that a bishop or a deacon should be a male.
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1860
3/9/12 8:51 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Feature Presentations This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.