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Church of God sold on courthouse steps
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Post To Defend Myself Looking For Friends
This story is very real. To reveal the name of the previous pastor would be harmful to the ministry he is now responsible for. The last thing I want to do is to see another church go through this painful process.

How did it happen?

Step 1: The pastor made all decisions with very little input from others.

Step 2: The focus was on building a daycare center, continuing to borrow to build more and more building...only building a sanctuary after 15 years and 3 other major project. Basically, the church was never trained or discipled to do ministry.

Step 3: The church hired a builder who was not bonded. The bank gave several hundred thousand dollars to this unbonded contractor...who left town with the money, never paying subs & the building left unfinished...thus more money had to borrowed that the church could not afford.

Step 4: After years of lawsuits from the subs & a declining number of kids in the daycare center, the church could not survive financially. The attitude was "if we keep building, they will come". Problem is that there was no intentional strategy to build strong leaders & focus on MISSION.

There are other things that happened, but for the Elder and others who question this story, feel free to send me a PM. I have already communicated one on one with other posters about this thread, so this is not a "hit & run" post situation.

My plea remains the same...PASTORS SHOULD BE FORCED TO STAY AND PAY OFF THE DEBT OR LOSE THEIR CREDENTIALS.

That's my opinion...no way Cleveland will ever enforce it...just a call for accountability that will NEVER happen in the Church of God.
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1/30/12 2:18 pm


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Post Re: wracking up debt Resident Skeptic
revuriah wrote:
Resident Skeptic wrote:
American style Christianity at its best. Pastors spending 90% of their mental energies on maintaining a building, and actually pastoring about 10% of the time. Then some, as is insinuated in this thread, get on ego trips only to abandon the flock when the debt load gets too heavy.

Friends, this is why I am heading south of the border to pastor. Sure ,there will be problems, but debt won't be one of them.


Where are you going? Mexico, or perhaps in the Caribbean?


Lord willing to Mexico.
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1/30/12 2:27 pm


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Post theElder
Looking for friends, others may accept your explanation but I do not.

First off, I find it more than a little ironic that you have such great concern not to harm the reputation of that former pastor that you claim caused such harm to the church that they are going to start a new church outside the CoG.

I know that situations like this have most likely happened but you cannot convince me that one person is to blame! That pastor could not obligate that church to the massive debt you claim without the input from and consent of the churches trustees.

If the trustees know anything at all about their duties they would not have signed off on any indebtedness without approval of the membership.

If, in fact, the general contractor was paid without release of liens from the subs and his supliers that, again, would be the responsibility of the trustees.

It also doesn't make sense from the standpoint that you say the bank released monies to the contractor. Since the church borrowed the money the release fo that money would have to be approved by church officials (again the Trustees have a major portion of the blame if true) before any monies could be turned over to anyone.

What I am posting is from personal experience as we had a very similar experience here at this church. The difference being that we have managed to pay our bills due to the awesome committment of a dedicated core group of members.

BUT, bottom line is, there is NO ONE person that can be singled out for blame. It may be satisfying to do so but it is dishonest at the very least.

The only thing that does do is let's everyone else off the hook! And if that happens the same situation could develop with someone else getting the church in bondage again.
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1/30/12 4:31 pm


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Post Not one man's fault Looking For Friends
But the man who led the building, borrowed the money and surrounded himself with "yes men" who did not question anything he did for 14 years LEFT while the people were left behind to pay 2.4 million dollars with less than 50 people.

There is an overseer and others who were also part of it.

My point was & still is this...the man/woman who borrows the money should be forced to stay until the mortgage is manageable.

I have not released names and locations, but am simply asking pastors to think twice before borrowing more than a church can pay off.
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1/30/12 7:06 pm


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Post Re: Not one man's fault Cojak
Looking For Friends wrote:
But the man who led the building, borrowed the money and surrounded himself with "yes men" who did not question anything he did for 14 years LEFT while the people were left behind to pay 2.4 million dollars with less than 50 people.

There is an overseer and others who were also part of it.

My point was & still is this...the man/woman who borrows the money should be forced to stay until the mortgage is manageable.

I have not released names and locations, but am simply asking pastors to think twice before borrowing more than a church can pay off.


And I say that is a good point. Cool
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1/30/12 8:03 pm


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Post theElder
While I agree that it may be a good idea to consider requiring a pastor to stay until the mortgage is 'manageable'. Every situation would be different as far as what would be 'manageable'.

Were (are) you a member of that church? Were you one of the Trustees involved during this time? Who appointed/elected those who you say were yes men? Who elected/appointed the Trustees who were entrusted with the responsibility to make sure something untoward was not perpetrated on the membership?

Why did it take 'several years' before the problems became appearant? Was that because the economic circumstances of the congregation changed over that time?

Was the church at 50 people when the indebtedness occurred? If not was it down to 50 when the former pastor left?

Looking for friends can throw out accusations left and right but there are a lot of questions that need to be answered before a finger can be pointed at the one person who must shoulder the blame.

These are some of the questions that need to be answered before anyone should take your original post seriously.
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1/30/12 8:17 pm


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Post Not throwing accusations right and left Looking For Friends
The church never ran much more than 100 from the records.

The trustees at this church are good men, but their objections to stop borrowing were ignored by the pastor and state overseers that kept approving huge loans. The church was seen as "too big to fail" (sound familiar?). Most are still here & have admitted that they should have tried harder to change the course of the church's business decisions.

The reason it took years is that the Church of God kept approving loans to be made as a daycare center brought in a lot of money. There is no accountability in our denomination, which is why as long as reports were sent in and tithe of tithe was paid, there were no questions asked.

I am not accusing anyone because I am not revealing location or persons involved.

To the Elder, I'm sorry that I have struck a nerve with you by calling for pastors to take responsibility for carelessly leading a church into unbearable debt.

This will be my last post on this thread because my heart was to admonish pastors...not be falsely accused by theElder.
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1/30/12 9:19 pm


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Post theElder
I haven't accused you of anything other than failing to provide answers to legitimate questions!

First off, I know what I am talking about in raising these questions and so do others on this board who are CoG Bishops or even Trustees for a local CoG congregation.

Nothing that you have described could have taken place without votes of the membership of that church! Beyond that, nothing of what you have described could have occurred without the Trustees of that church signing the loan/mortgage documents. Invoices would not have been approved and checks signed to pay those invoices without the Trustees and/or Elders being aware of them

Those are the simple facts!

If the Trustees and/or Edlers of the church were too weak spined to buck this former pastor those are the men who should bear most of the blame for the situation this church appearantly finds itself in.

You call them 'good men'. They are far from that if they did not do their duty to this church congregation! And if what you have described really happened they did not do their duty.

I don't blame you for saying you aren't going to post on this thread anymore. Obviously you won't answer legitimate questions and anything else you post will just cause your original post to be that much more suspect.

They can only be more of the same as this last post of you: Trying to turn folks attention away from your lack of answers by portraying yourself as a victim who has been falsely accused.

Again, I have accused you of nothing except failing to answer legitimate questions about your accusation against a pastor.
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1/31/12 12:41 am


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Post Now Elder Cojak
The man did say he would give you the information if you would inbox him. Shocked
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1/31/12 11:27 am


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Post theElder
I'm awaiting his reply to my pm to him. Acts Enthusiast
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1/31/12 2:36 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
2.4 million with only 100 folks?

What bank would do that? Shocked
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1/31/12 3:22 pm


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Post Yes, it can happen COG Blessed
with only the Pastor and Clerk signing..... ordering---paying, etc.
There are pastors that think they are the only authority. But skipping that..... my question is "Why was this particular church let down by the
Church Of God (State or General) when others are being bailed out every week?"
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1/31/12 6:10 pm


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Post theElder
That's a VERY good question SheepdogAndy!

As for your comments COG Blessed, I'm afraid you need to get a copy of the Minutes and see just what process if required to commit a church to such an indebtedness.

The Minutes spell out very specifically what procedures has to be followed before a loan can be applied for. It spells out how the loan has to be approved; who has to sign for it, etc. If only the Pastor and Clerk does such a thing they are committing fraud and would be subject to criminal penalties.
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1/31/12 6:24 pm


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Post John Stevenson
Come on guys! What happened to 70 times 7? Forgive & forget, remember? That's what you guys were preaching to me 2 days ago.
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2/1/12 11:49 am


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Post Cojak
John Stevenson wrote:
Come on guys! What happened to 70 times 7? Forgive & forget, remember? That's what you guys were preaching to me 2 days ago.


John, I see you still don't understand, it is all how you look at it. We all have those blinders on. hahahahaha Wink

QW (love him) always comes back at me, something like, the anti fault finder thinks it is all right to find fault with me. Wink
Ain't it the truth!!

Shocked
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2/1/12 12:33 pm


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Post diakoneo
theElder wrote:
That's a VERY good question SheepdogAndy!

As for your comments COG Blessed, I'm afraid you need to get a copy of the Minutes and see just what process if required to commit a church to such an indebtedness.

The Minutes spell out very specifically what procedures has to be followed before a loan can be applied for. It spells out how the loan has to be approved; who has to sign for it, etc. If only the Pastor and Clerk does such a thing they are committing fraud and would be subject to criminal penalties.


Minutes??? You mean we always follow the Minutes!?! Twisted Evil
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2/1/12 1:31 pm


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Post Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps Jerry Lawson
Looking For Friends wrote:

We need to pass a motion that says if a pastor borrows money to build or expand, he/she should be forced to STAY until the debt is at least 80 percent paid off. To walk away from heavy debt should be reason for revoking credentials.


While I do share your frustration with this kind of problem in the Church of God, I do not share your view of the solution.

It seems to me that we in the CoG are in a big boat with a big hole in the bottom. We are feverishly bailing out water just to keep ourselves afloat. We keep bailing, all the while arguing about who should bail, what size bucket should be used, who's turn it is to bail water....

When the real solution is to PLUG THE HOLE!!!

Brothers and Sisters, the hole in our boat is a LEADERSHIP hole. We keep making new rules and violating older ones in an effort to keep our heads above water, but what we really need is true, God-called, dedicated, unambitious leadership. We need state overseers that are called to ONE STATE for an lifetime. We need pastors who are called to ONE COMMUNITY for a lifetime. We need administrators who are called to serve ONE AREA of administration and not try to use it as a platform to become world famous.

If a leader at Daystar Church bombs in one area of ministry, there is no way I'm going to give him another ministry to sink. And He can't come back and 2 years without fixing his weakness and try again, because I'M GOING TO STILL BE HERE IN 2 YEARS!

It's called shepherding. That's something the CoG does pretty well at the local church level but utterly fails at on the state/regional/national level. And I'm not impugning our leaders at all. I really think it's out of their hands. OUR SYSTEM HAS US HANDICAPPED. And the General Assembly is the only body that can fix this problem.

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.tv
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2/1/12 3:39 pm


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Post John Stevenson
The Minutes are very confusing and need a total rehaul. Many of our churches don't run by the Minutes until trouble comes. Very sad!
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2/1/12 3:41 pm


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Post theElder
diakoneo wrote:
theElder wrote:
That's a VERY good question SheepdogAndy!

As for your comments COG Blessed, I'm afraid you need to get a copy of the Minutes and see just what process if required to commit a church to such an indebtedness.

The Minutes spell out very specifically what procedures has to be followed before a loan can be applied for. It spells out how the loan has to be approved; who has to sign for it, etc. If only the Pastor and Clerk does such a thing they are committing fraud and would be subject to criminal penalties.


Minutes??? You mean we always follow the Minutes!?! Twisted Evil


Perhaps you do not. And perhaps that did not happen at the church under discussion, but, as I said, it would be fraud and subject to criminal penalties.

BTW, Looking for friends has still not replied to by pm asking for further information on his accusation against the former pastor of this church he is posting about.
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2/1/12 4:14 pm


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Post Re: Church of God sold on courthouse steps diakoneo
Jerry Lawson wrote:
Looking For Friends wrote:

We need to pass a motion that says if a pastor borrows money to build or expand, he/she should be forced to STAY until the debt is at least 80 percent paid off. To walk away from heavy debt should be reason for revoking credentials.


While I do share your frustration with this kind of problem in the Church of God, I do not share your view of the solution.

It seems to me that we in the CoG are in a big boat with a big hole in the bottom. We are feverishly bailing out water just to keep ourselves afloat. We keep bailing, all the while arguing about who should bail, what size bucket should be used, who's turn it is to bail water....

When the real solution is to PLUG THE HOLE!!!

Brothers and Sisters, the hole in our boat is a LEADERSHIP hole. We keep making new rules and violating older ones in an effort to keep our heads above water, but what we really need is true, God-called, dedicated, unambitious leadership. We need state overseers that are called to ONE STATE for an lifetime. We need pastors who are called to ONE COMMUNITY for a lifetime. We need administrators who are called to serve ONE AREA of administration and not try to use it as a platform to become world famous.

If a leader at Daystar Church bombs in one area of ministry, there is no way I'm going to give him another ministry to sink. And He can't come back and 2 years without fixing his weakness and try again, because I'M GOING TO STILL BE HERE IN 2 YEARS!

It's called shepherding. That's something the CoG does pretty well at the local church level but utterly fails at on the state/regional/national level. And I'm not impugning our leaders at all. I really think it's out of their hands. OUR SYSTEM HAS US HANDICAPPED. And the General Assembly is the only body that can fix this problem.

Jerry Lawson
www.daystarchurch.tv


Wow, that is good stuff Jerry, but I would add that we need more involved leadership on what we now call "District" level. It always helps to have feet on the ground at close proximity.
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2/2/12 9:31 am


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