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Quiet Wyatt |
The OT saints were obedient to the light they had, yes, but "the just shall live by faith" is all through the Old Testament, from Abel through Abraham, and so forth. None of them were justified by their works, but by rather by faith. Now that Christ has come, as you know a New Covenant has been made.
Just like Simeon and Anna in Luke 2:25 had longed for the redemption of Israel and it had been revealed to Simeon by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord’s Christ, even so all the OT saints longed for a redeemer. Even in our day, there is no reason why we should limit the possibility of God revealing the gospel to someone who is earnestly seeking Him. |
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Posts: 12792
1/6/12 10:13 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
OK, now let me try to to assist your equally stubborn mind (SMILE).
| Quote: | One more time hoping against hope that what I'm saying will finally sink in to your remarkably resistant mind: I do not affirm that anyone is sent to Hell because they don't know the gospel. The reason anyone is condemned to Hell is because they have sinned against what they DO know is right, according to Romans 1, 2, and 3, and ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God--thus the desperate and absolute need for a sinless Savior.
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OK, here's the point I'm trying to make. You do NOT go to hell because you have "sinned." You got to hell because you have not repented/atoned for you sin.
For instance, did Job go to hell? He wasn't a Jew, apparently. Nor was Abel. Did he go to hell?
They lived by "faith"? Sure--ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT THEY HAD.
I am making a very subtle point--one that I obviously am not making clear--so I hope you will seek to understand what I'm trying to say....
Even those who were called RIGHTEOUS and PERFECT had sinned at some point in their lives. How were they made righteous and perfect then?
BY SEEKING ATONEMENT, ETC ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT THEY HAD...AND NOT PRACTICING SIN.
That atonement might have been blood sacrifice. It might have been something else, I don't know. Zacchaeus' atonement was "restitution where possible," apparently.
So we have this set of men who are considered righteous and perfect, yet we know that, as men, they certainly SINNED at some point. How did the sin become expunged or covered or not imputed?
The best I can see is that they sought forgiveness from God ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT THEY HAD.
So, let's take this to deep, dark Africa or New Guinea. A heathen who only knows of God in the most limited way--the stars and so forth--does something that is against his conscience. He seeks atonement the only way he knows--he offers some sort of sacrifice to God. That is the light he has.
You would say (I think) that that was no good enough. He had sinned...and therefore, never having heard of Jesus, he HAD to go to hell.
I would say, "No, if one's conscience can 'excuse' them, then, since we know that does not mean a person is sinless, it must mean that they have been forgiven or restored or atoned for."
So the heathen, though he has indeed technically sinned, is restored to "righteousness" before God ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT HE HAS.
So, now we have a "righteous" person that has never heard of Jesus. The poor man dies. He has lived as best he knows according to the light he has. You say he must therefore burn forever.
I say that's not at all the kind of God we serve. SOMEHOW this man will have the opportunity to accept Jesus. Post-mortem? In his spirit ten seconds before death? WHO KNOWS?
If Islam claimed that those who do not serve Allah will burn forever in torment, and that those who had never even heard of Allah would therefore burn forever, you and I would be justified in saying that that was a cruel religion and a cruel God.
Yet when the SAME THING is spoken of OUR religion...it's suddenly good and just and holy if God acts like that?
No. We know unfairness and injustice when we see it. Don't let your theology put God in a corner that makes Him unjust. Calvinists already do this with their double-predestination. They'd rather have their theology than have a good and just God, apparently.
Show me a single verse that says that, for a good person, there is no time after death to accept Jesus. I can understand a bad heathen going straight to hell. But on what scriptural or rational grounds do you contend that God would not afford a "righteous" heathen the opportunity to know Jesus after death, before judgment? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
1/7/12 10:47 am
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| The blood of bulls and goats did NOT take away sins. |
Quiet Wyatt |
Heb. 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. NIV
He is the Lamb of God which takes away (literally, "is taking away") the sin of the world. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/7/12 11:12 am
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| Re: Wyatt... |
Quiet Wyatt |
| FloridaForever wrote: |
OK, here's the point I'm trying to make. You do NOT go to hell because you have "sinned." You got to hell because you have not repented/atoned for you sin. |
In every the scriptural passage which refers to the Final Judgment, it is in fact their specific sins which are said to be the reason for their damnation.
| Quote: | | For instance, did Job go to hell? He wasn't a Jew, apparently. Nor was Abel. Did he go to hell? |
The OT saints were saved by faith according to the light they had, yes, but their faith longed for a Redeemer to come.
Job said:
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
22 This is one thing, therefore I said it, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked.
23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
25 Now my days are swifter than a post: they flee away, they see no good.
26 They are passed away as the swift ships: as the eagle that hasteth to the prey.
27 If I say, I will forget my complaint, I will leave off my heaviness, and comfort myself:
28 I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent.
29 If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain?
30 If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean;
31 Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me.
32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.
34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me:
35 Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
28 But ye should say, Why persecute we him, seeing the root of the matter is found in me?
29 Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that ye may know there is a judgment.
| Quote: | Even those who were called RIGHTEOUS and PERFECT had sinned at some point in their lives. How were they made righteous and perfect then?
BY SEEKING ATONEMENT, ETC ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT THEY HAD...AND NOT PRACTICING SIN.
That atonement might have been blood sacrifice. It might have been something else, I don't know. Zacchaeus' atonement was "restitution where possible," apparently.
So we have this set of men who are considered righteous and perfect, yet we know that, as men, they certainly SINNED at some point. How did the sin become expunged or covered or not imputed? |
See my previous post. Their sin was forgiven and cleansed by sheer mercy because of their faith in the Redeemer to come, not by the multitude of sacrifices they brought.
| Quote: |
So, let's take this to deep, dark Africa or New Guinea. A heathen who only knows of God in the most limited way--the stars and so forth--does something that is against his conscience. He seeks atonement the only way he knows--he offers some sort of sacrifice to God. That is the light he has.
You would say (I think) that that was no good enough. He had sinned...and therefore, never having heard of Jesus, he HAD to go to hell. |
No, that's not what I would say. I would say if he diligently would seek the God who by revelation of nature (Rom. 1), conscience (Rom. 2) and by prevenient grace (Jesus said that by his death He would draw all men unto himself), God would see to it that someone brought him the gospel, whether by a Bible translator, missionary, angelic visitation, or a vision directing him on how to find the truth. (The first two we know happens in our day; the latter two also have happened in Scripture (Acts 10) and have been reported in recent years as well.
| Quote: | | If Islam claimed that those who do not serve Allah will burn forever in torment, and that those who had never even heard of Allah would therefore burn forever, you and I would be justified in saying that that was a cruel religion and a cruel God. |
From what I know, Islam teaches that everything that happens is the will of Allah, period. But to your assertion, no, I would not say that particular aspect of Islam (if truly what Islam or any other religion were to teach) would be a cruel one, since I affirm Christianity as exclusively true.
| Quote: | | Show me a single verse that says that, for a good person, there is no time after death to accept Jesus. I can understand a bad heathen going straight to hell. But on what scriptural or rational grounds do you contend that God would not afford a "righteous" heathen the opportunity to know Jesus after death, before judgment? |
You are simply begging the question by asserting that there can be anyone who is good on their own apart from faith in the Messiah. |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 11:35 am
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
No, the blood of goats and bulls does not take away sin...BUT it did serve the purpose for which it was intended, restoring right fellowship with God, if done with the right sort of heart. David's sacrifice for his sin served a purpose. And on and on. I'm not at all claiming that a sacrifice makes one equally righteous with a born-again Christian! I AM claiming that sacrifice, if done with a sincere heart, makes one as righteous as one CAN be in THAT CONTEXT.
If ALL liars go to hell, then if you have EVER told a lie, you are a liar and therefore you go to hell. That is CLEARLY not what is intended. It is the PRACTICE of sin, or the un-atoned sin that is being referred to.
I don't think you see it this way, but you are playing with two sets of rules. On the one hand, you are saying that since NO ONE can be fully righteous in God's sight without being born-again, that no one can be "righteous" in the context of not having heard of Jesus, etc.
But in the OT, we see plenty of men who were considered "good," "righteous," or "perfect," ALL of them having sinned, all of them having never known of Jesus. For example:
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5:1 Now Naaman, captain of the host of the king of Syria, was a great man with his master, and honourable, because by him the LORD had given deliverance unto Syria: he was also a mighty man in valour, but he was a leper. |
What I hear you saying (and I may be wrong) is this:
"The reason an unsaved heathen must go to hell is because no one, no matter how good, can possibly be righteous before God without being born-again. No matter how good that heathen is, he has sinned at SOME POINT, therefore he is unclean in God's eyes and DESERVING of hell. "
That is, in one breath you say, "according to the light they have," and then you say, "Nope, even that's not enough, since they haven't actually been saved, to make them righteous before God."
I don't know if I'm explaining that as well as I should, but it SEEMS that Paul is saying that a heathen can be excused before God by living according to the law in his heart...and yet you seem to be dismissing even that by saying, "No, even if he has lived according to the law in his heart, he has at some point SINNED, therefore is worthy of hell."
But the POINT is that those living in pre-grace light STILL had means of making atonement for themselves--by sacrifice, prayer, etc. That is, they had indeed sinned betimes, but it was not counted against them either because they had no law...or because God overlooked/forgave/etc. the sin due to them seeking forgiveness in whatever way they knew to. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
1/7/12 12:54 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
The light they have is not the gospel. All they have is the law, whether the law of natural observation (Rom. 1), the law of conscience (Rom. 2), or the law of Moses. By the law is the knowledge of sin, not the knowledge of salvation.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Everyone who is morally accountable knows enough to know right from wrong, but again, that does not say they can by that same knowledge of right and wrong find the way of salvation unless they diligently seek Him by faith.
A convicted criminal can by the law only know that he is guilty. He cannot be justified by the law which has condemned him. He can only be pardoned and justified by the grace of the King. There is no other name by which we can be saved.
Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The OT saints, however they were regenerated, are not an example of how one is regenerated under the conditions of the New Covenant. I believe Christ preached the gospel to them after his crucifixion, and "led captivity captive" as Ephesians says in His resurrection. But again, that says nothing of how people may be saved now under the New Covenant.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 1/7/12 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 1:21 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev. 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
You only have to be a whoremonger, liar, an idolator, unbeliever once in order to be one. Sin must be atoned for and cleansed in order for salvation to be real. |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 1:24 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | The light they have is not the gospel. All they have is the law, whether the law of natural observation (Rom. 1), the law of conscience (Rom. 2), or the law of Moses. By the law is the knowledge of sin, not the knowledge of salvation.
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Everyone who is morally accountable knows enough to know right from wrong, but again, that does not say they can by that same knowledge of right and wrong find the way of salvation unless they diligently seek Him by faith.
A convicted criminal can by the law only know that he is guilty. He cannot be justified by the law which has condemned him. He can only be pardoned and justified by the grace of the King. There is no other name by which we can be saved.
Jesus said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The OT saints, however they were regenerated, are not an example of how one is regenerated under the conditions of the New Covenant. I believe Christ preached the gospel to them after his resurrection, and "led captivity captive," as Ephesians says. But again, that says nothing of how people may be saved now under the New Covenant. |
Wyatt, let me cut to the chase. If you believe that a heathen who truly reaches out for God will be visited by an angel, if not a missionary, then you have ZERO REASON to get so uptight about a heathen having the opportunity to receive Jesus after death.
NONE. ZERO. ZILCH.
The souls in prison, so far as we understand, apparently were benefited by Jesus' preaching to them. Otherwise it was an utter and sickening farce! "Yes, you are going to hell, there's not a thing that can be done for you...but we're going to preach the gospel to you in order to tantalize you and show you what you missed."
Our argument is ultimately about WHEN a sincere heathen will be accorded an opportunity to receive Christ. You declaim to the high heavens that it cannot, must not, will not, can never be, after death...but in the same breath, make the claim that if they do not get reached by a missionary, an angel will appear to them, or some vision will come, or what have you.
We are BOTH saying that somehow, someway, the gospel gets presented. I claim that it MAY be after death, in those cases where an angel or a missionary didn't show up.
Again, there is NO REASON AT ALL to resist this point. It doesn't change God's nature, it doesn't change the necessity of Jesus, it doesn't do anything...but go against some vague theology that you must, you must, you must hear about Jesus and get saved BEFORE you die...otherwise you must burn forever.
"WHEN" is the crux of our issue. You have no scripture that demands that an angel or a missionary will show up, yet you believe that somehow the gospel WILL reach the sincere heathen...but not after death. Nor do you have any scripture that prevents it happening after death.
Why do I think a heathen may indeed have such an opportunity? Because of Romans 2...and our understanding of the justice of God. I am simply saying that IF IF IF a "righteous" heathen did not get the chance to hear the gospel--either by missionary, angel, or otherwise--then he WILL get the opportunity after death. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
1/7/12 2:04 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Yes I have reasons. The Bible nowhere states or even remotely implies that anyone can hope for a chance to repent after death. Citing one unclear reference in 1 Peter does not prove anything. We all know we can't base doctrine (especially one so crucial as how men can be saved) on only one scripture.
Also, if your theory is true, who wouldn't repent at that point, with such overwhelming light of truth as that would bring, and how would that be fair to the rest of mortal men who have to receive by faith what we have not yet seen? Why would the writers of Scripture go to such lengths as they do to emphasize that God commands all men everywhere to repent NOW, if in fact later will do just as fine?
By the way, your assertion cuts down your objection to my point of view just as well. You have no good reason to object to what I'm saying about God getting the gospel to the earnest seeker of truth. Jesus said EVERYONE who seeks will find. Jesus said He would draw ALL men unto Himself by virtue of his death. Paul said God will judge the world in righteousness by the man he has appointed, Jesus Christ, whom he raised from the dead.
You have no problem believing God has power over death sufficient to resurrect Jesus; why wouldn't you believe God's power could reach the earnestly seeking heathen just like He reached Cornelius in Acts 10? |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 2:14 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | Yes I have reasons. The Bible nowhere states or even remotely implies that anyone can hope for a chance to repent after death. Citing one unclear reference in 1 Peter does not prove anything. We all know we can't base doctrine (especially one so crucial as how men can be saved) on only one scripture.
And it nowhere states that there is no chance of repentance AFTER death...for a good man. Certainly we understand, as in the case of the rich man and Lazarus, that the bad person goes to hell with no further chance, either having rejected the gospel or, having never heard the gospel, having sinned against the law of his heart.
Further, one must consider the moral conclusion that comes about if God would send a good heathen who never heard the gospel to hell, but would, it is supposed, save a Hitler at the very last moment before death and grant him eternal life. I certainly would not love such a god (lower case intended, for it would not be the true God).
God is better than our best understanding of Him. Jesus says that if WE, being evil, can...how much more the Father? Same in every department of moral graces. He loves better than we do. Is more merciful than we are. Is more just than we are. To relegate Him to being the sort of petty God would would overlook the good behavior of a heathen who never heard of Jesus...while (apparently) rushing to the dying bedside of Hitler to grant him life eternal in his final seconds...that's not going to work with anyone.
Also, if your theory is true, who wouldn't repent at that point, with such overwhelming light of truth as that would bring, and how would that be fair to the rest of mortal men who have to receive by faith what we have not yet seen? Why would the writers of Scripture go to such lengths as they do to emphasize that God commands all men everywhere to repent NOW, if in fact later will do just as fine?
Was it fair that the disciples got to actually SEE Jesus do miracles...while we have to simply "believe" it? What about Thomas? He had to see to believe. Indeed, we are called to believe upon hearing the gospel. But if you don't HEAR the gospel (and that does not simply mean that sound waves strike your eardrum), then what's wrong with God granting the "handicapped" person this extra grace?
Is it fair that God might, as you said yourself, send an angel to tell someone about the gospel??? That would be pretty convincing, too, wouldn't it? SO? Some people saw what Jesus was doing--AND STILL REJECTED HIM.
Besides, when did you become concerned with "fair"? You apparently think it's fine for God to throw a heathen into an eternal hell, even though the poor guy never heard the gospel! I don't think THAT'S fair.
Should we be upset that Thomas came to FAITH be seeing Jesus as he did? You STILL have to believe on Him--whether you see Him or not.
By the way, your assertion cuts down your objection to my point of view just as well. You have no good reason to object to what I'm saying about God getting the gospel to the earnest seeker of truth. Jesus said EVERYONE who seeks will find. Jesus said He would draw ALL men unto Himself by virtue of his death. Paul said God will judge the world in righteousness by the man he has appointed, Jesus Christ, whom he raised from the dead.
You have no problem believing God has power over death sufficient to resurrect Jesus; why wouldn't you believe God's power could reach the earnestly seeking heathen just like He reached Cornelius in Acts 10?
I agree. I don't have the slightest problem with God doing as He did in Acts 10. My view, though, is that IF that doesn't happen--and apparently it doesn't very much, since we seldom hear of such things (I mean, surely, with the billions of people on earth, there are some good heathens--since there are, according to preachers, plenty of "good folks" going to hell).
If that happens, great! I contend, however, that it most likely doesn't happen very often, since I imagine we'd heard a bit more about it if angels were appearing to people and preaching the gospel to them. And assuming that I am right, then WHEN does the "worthy" heathen hear the gospel? You've agreed that God will get it to him. Agreed. But if God doesn't send an angel (which is "unfair," don't forget!), then why object to God making Him aware of the gospel thirty seconds after death (equally "unfair")?
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
1/7/12 4:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Quote: | | When did you become concerned with fair? |
LOL. You're some piece of work.
Actually when you admit that an 'evil' man should go straight to Hell even if he never heard the gospel, you admit God's judgment is just.
If you would be upset if Hitler were to have repented on his deathbed and been saved, it simply reveals that you don't believe salvation is really by grace through faith. The deathbed convert, like the repentant thief on the cross, is saved the same way anyone else is--by grace through faith.
You just happen to think there are actually really truly morally good people who don't know Jesus, whom God somehow owes an opportunity to be saved after death to. |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 4:32 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
My view is that for those who diligently seek Him, in this life, someway or other, God will reveal himself to them. In Him we live and move and have our being, Paul said.
They would still have to meet the conditions of salvation in any case, namely, repentance and faith, in order to be saved though. |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 4:35 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. |
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Posts: 12792
1/7/12 4:48 pm
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| Wyatt... |
FloridaForever |
| Quote: | LOL. You're some piece of work.
Actually when you admit that an 'evil' man should go straight to Hell even if he never heard the gospel, you admit God's judgment is just.
I've never once said otherwise! After all, Romans 2 tells us that even the person who has never heard the gospel has the law written in his heart, by which he is condemned or excused. A bad heathen has already broken the law that he DID have (in his heart), so God is utterly just in His judgment.
But the "good" heathen, having lived as best he knows to live according to the light he has received, is a different case. He has done the best with what he had...while the other has not.
If you would be upset if Hitler were to have repented on his deathbed and been saved, it simply reveals that you don't believe salvation is really by grace through faith. The deathbed convert, like the repentant thief on the cross, is saved the same way anyone else is--by grace through faith.
I think you misunderstood me. I am not concerned that Hitler would repent on his deathbed and be saved. Rather, I said that it would be UNFAIR for him to be pure evil for a lifetime and be saved...while the heathen who has lived a lifetime of good is sent to hell for never having had the opportunity to hear of Jesus.
No one is denying that only by Jesus and grace are we saved. But what kind of grace is it that says, "Because you didn't get this vital piece of information, all the good living you did according to the light you had is in vain?" YES, it is in vain in terms of saving a person...but do you REALLY believe God would not give such a person a chance? And if He doesn't give the chance in this life, on what grounds do you claim He does not give it after this life?
You just happen to think there are actually really truly morally good people who don't know Jesus, whom God somehow owes an opportunity to be saved after death to.
Yeah, I do. If "God is not willing that ANY perish," then that scripture is a lie if He would send a good person to hell without affording a single chance to hear the gospel.
I do believe their are "saintly" people in other religions or countries. We have our "Mother Teresa," they have their "saintlies" also. It's just life. That being the case, if that is ALL the person knows to do to please God, then that person has done everything he knows to please God. So our loving God will toss him in hell because the gospel was not presented?
I know this is not a heaven or hell issue in terms of how you and I perceive this, and it won't change the reality of what God actually does do, but just how different is that conception of God from some of the more terrible conceptions of Him by heathens? He still seems to be a God that will send us to eternal torment through no fault of our on (oh, wait, that's Original Sin, so maybe we should retain it? HA!).
In any case, we shall simply have to agree to disagree. I'm going with the best and highest conception of God I can.
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Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
1/7/12 5:24 pm
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| FloridaForever |
KevinWallace |
Are you suggesting that good unsaved people are going to heaven? If so that sounds heretical and I wanted to see if you'd unpack that.
Thank you sir
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Once I thought was wrong, but...I was mistaken |
Friendly Face
Posts: 450
1/7/12 5:25 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
FF,
I do not believe anyone ever ends up in Hell through no fault of their own. Nor have I ever said God doesn't give some people a chance as you keep on insisting.
Kindly stop making such misrepresentations. I have never once said anything of the sort.
Anyone who ends up in Hell deserves it and no one in Heaven but God could ever deserve to be there.
What may be known of God has been revealed to them, for God has shown it unto them, according to Rom. 1. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
1/7/12 5:34 pm
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| Re: FloridaForever |
mytimewillcome |
| KevinWallace wrote: | Are you suggesting that good unsaved people are going to heaven? If so that sounds heretical and I wanted to see if you'd unpack that.
Thank you sir |
Not to answer for him but we need to define what we mean by "unsaved". Can someone be "saved" without saying the name "Jesus" or hearing the "gospel" from the good book?
I would say we limit God and his ability to reveal himself when we stick to what we believe the only methods of salvation are. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
1/7/12 5:47 pm
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| I apologize Mtwc |
KevinWallace |
I mean anyone who has not repented, believed and confessed Jesus as the Lord of their life. And I humbly submit that God limited His ability to save someone except they go through the prescribed modem of salvation ie faith in Christ. I don't limit His saving ability because I believe Jesus is the only way. That is the only method God has sanctioned and ordained as a means of salvation... Christ and Him alone.
Will God in His mercy allow those who have never heard the Gospel to enter into heaven? Possibly.
Can a man be saved by any other means that Christ and Him crucified. Absolutely not.
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Once I thought was wrong, but...I was mistaken |
Friendly Face
Posts: 450
1/7/12 6:04 pm
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| Re: I apologize Mtwc |
mytimewillcome |
| KevinWallace wrote: | I mean anyone who has not repented, believed and confessed Jesus as the Lord of their life. And I humbly submit that God limited His ability to save someone except they go through the prescribed modem of salvation ie faith in Christ. I don't limit His saving ability because I believe Jesus is the only way. That is the only method God has sanctioned and ordained as a means of salvation... Christ and Him alone.
Will God in His mercy allow those who have never heard the Gospel to enter into heaven? Possibly.
Can a man be saved by any other means that Christ and Him crucified. Absolutely not. |
Thanks for the response. Paul referred to the "gospel" well before we referred to the first 4 books of the NT as such. The gospel is not just the scriptures.
What if Christ reveals himself to people of Buddhist faith and they call him something besides "Jesus" in English? They call on his name yet never read the gospel of John or say the sinner's prayer.
God is not limited in his methods of salvation, we are limited in understanding them all. I am not advocating more than one way, only that God can reveal himself to whoever he wishes and however he would like to do so. Are the scriptures, preaching, and testimony the most prevalent way? Sure. However, we have no idea how many Muslims, Buddhists, and Southern Floridians could be saved through Jesus Christ without going through our religious motions. |
Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
Posts: 3661
1/7/12 6:42 pm
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| I knew the Mormons would get to you sooner or later |
Rafael D Martinez |
| FloridaForever wrote: | | I am simply saying that IF IF IF a "righteous" heathen did not get the chance to hear the gospel--either by missionary, angel, or otherwise--then he WILL get the opportunity after death. |
Hope you got your temple garments nice and tidy for your temple work.
There's a lot of people you need to get to work for.
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www.spiritwatch.org
Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16
These are trying times. Everyone's trying something and getting caught. The Church Lady, 1987 |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7766
1/7/12 7:57 pm
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