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Quiet Wyatt |
What's even more funny about this whole thing is it can all be blamed on LC's careless reading of the thread in question. No one said having a lisp was even a sin. What was said is that Paul says in 1 Cor 6:9-10 that an effeminate man (like Link described) will not inherit the kingdom.
Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 12/27/11 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
12/27/11 1:17 pm
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| Re: Well, to ALL Biblical scholars..... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Mat wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | Why don't you just study something out.... here, Read Ex 32, 33, & 34 to understand
Ex 34:6-7: & Adonai passed by before him (Moshe) & proclaimed, Adonai the L-rd G-d, Merciful & Gracious, Longsuffering, & “Abundant” in Goodness & Truth (Gal 5:22). Verse 7: Keeping Mercy for thousands, “forgiving iniquity” (Jer 31:34) “&” transgressions “&” sin, ……..
Here is a startling new view of a Supreme Monarch on the earth, a King who forgives “Law” breaking, & trespass, & evil to anyone who “seeks” that forgiveness. He will not clear the guilty as long as they remain guilty.
But they need not remain guilty before Him, for His Law provides a Way to His Mercy. This means that the guilty remain guilty until they are willing to meet Elohim, G-d on the grounds of the Mercy which He institutes for their forgiveness.
Both Covenants speak that man needs a meeting with G-d for forgiveness. It’s the confession of sins of breaking Torah & repentance to make wrong things right. & on G-ds part, He offers forgiveness to the sinner for breaking His Torah, Commandments & “cover” him. So that he may enter the Kingdom of G-d.
The Torah, what people say “Old Covenant” that doesn’t matter anymore, was the supreme Wonder on earth, in the world @ that time because of His Mercy that was offered to all.
There never was any Laws in any other nation like it (Deut 4:6-8), now & then for the very reason of Mercy offered to all.
Shalom |
My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; if you are a man are you circumcised; and do you observe every law, including those of the temple?
Mat |
Sir..., Are you saying I have to be "Jewish" to be qualified to speak on the O.T. with your comment: | Quote: | | My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; |
& I'm pretty sure that is not what you meant.... I hope, because the Whole Bible is Jewish  & the temple laws are doen away with with no temple, I am circumcised, & I "was" a gentile, heathen, but now I am as one born in the land after my 1st Passover Ex 12:48, Rom 11:17, the Lamb of G-d John 1:29.
Do you believe the Torah, law of Moshe stands today with your comment?: | Quote: | | My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". |
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 1:22 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Huh, well pastor nations.... this is not, as you say "my own cult belief system", I have Scripture for everything I say & believe, in all Texts of the Bible, Torah, Prophets, O.T. writings & N.T. & they all agree. |
All cults claim this.
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | & you are absolutly right, the devil is the father of lies. By the Way, G-d doesn't lie, |
God does not lie, but it is a lie that we are under the old covenant.
Btw, it is not super-spiritual to use the Modern Hebrew with non-hebrew letters and then mix it in with English sentences.
For example in the English language it is spelled Moses, not Moshe. There is no English word spelled Moshe.
Also, I know what you are trying to do, but it seems that if you are writing in English that it is wrong to misspell God by omitting the letter o.
I am surprised that spelling God incorrectly is not on your list of do-nots.
Here are verses that show you are in bondage, and need deliverance.
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." Romans 7:6 (NIV)
"But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Romans 7:6 (NKJV)
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2
Thus, you are in bondage and need deliverance. |
Huh..., bondage again? ok, well please do a study on "bondage" please to iunderstand what your talking about. Bondage is not bondage to Torah, but "mans" ways, laws, etc.
Are you reading whaty I have been saying about Mercy & Torah?
& to your Scriptures in Rom 7:6 & Rom 8:2 which is your answer to Rom 7:6.... The "law" of "sin & death"... from what we inherited from Adam & Eve.....
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 1:35 pm
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| Re: There can be no "rightous" Jews ... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Mat wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Mat wrote: | There can be no "rightous" Jews since there is no Temple. Without an active Temple, and priesthood, there can be no fullfillment of the commands, thus God's "chosen" people are the greatest sinners of all because they take refuge in the Law they do not obey. Somebody needs to "save" them from themselves. Who could do that?
Mat |
What about Jews who are made righteous through faith in Christ like the apostles were?
Jesus is Jewish. |
True rightousness is only through Jesus Christ, Jew or Gentile, but you already know that. I speak of those who proclaim the Law as neccessary but are not able to keep the Law, seeing there is no Temple.
Mat |
No one can keep every Law in Torah, not even Y'shua. Because there are laws for "women", Y'shua was a man. There are laws for animals, children, singles, married people, land, laws only for Y'sreal, etc.
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 1:37 pm
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| Re: Well, to ALL Biblical scholars..... |
Mat |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Mat wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | Why don't you just study something out.... here, Read Ex 32, 33, & 34 to understand
Ex 34:6-7: & Adonai passed by before him (Moshe) & proclaimed, Adonai the L-rd G-d, Merciful & Gracious, Longsuffering, & “Abundant” in Goodness & Truth (Gal 5:22). Verse 7: Keeping Mercy for thousands, “forgiving iniquity” (Jer 31:34) “&” transgressions “&” sin, ……..
Here is a startling new view of a Supreme Monarch on the earth, a King who forgives “Law” breaking, & trespass, & evil to anyone who “seeks” that forgiveness. He will not clear the guilty as long as they remain guilty.
But they need not remain guilty before Him, for His Law provides a Way to His Mercy. This means that the guilty remain guilty until they are willing to meet Elohim, G-d on the grounds of the Mercy which He institutes for their forgiveness.
Both Covenants speak that man needs a meeting with G-d for forgiveness. It’s the confession of sins of breaking Torah & repentance to make wrong things right. & on G-ds part, He offers forgiveness to the sinner for breaking His Torah, Commandments & “cover” him. So that he may enter the Kingdom of G-d.
The Torah, what people say “Old Covenant” that doesn’t matter anymore, was the supreme Wonder on earth, in the world @ that time because of His Mercy that was offered to all.
There never was any Laws in any other nation like it (Deut 4:6-8), now & then for the very reason of Mercy offered to all.
Shalom |
My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; if you are a man are you circumcised; and do you observe every law, including those of the temple?
Mat |
Sir..., Are you saying I have to be "Jewish" to be qualified to speak on the O.T. with your comment: | Quote: | | My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; |
& I'm pretty sure that is not what you meant.... I hope, because the Whole Bible is Jewish & the temple laws are doen away with with no temple, I am circumcised, & I "was" a gentile, heathen, but now I am as one born in the land after my 1st Passover Ex 12:48, Rom 11:17, the Lamb of G-d John 1:29.
Do you believe the Torah, law of Moshe stands today with your comment?: | Quote: | | My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". |
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You are welcome to your opinions on any subject; however, for me your opinions are simply that. As to the Bible being "Jewish", before there was Abraham, well you know, and since God can raise up children of Abraham from rocks, again you know. However, if you put yourself forward as an authoritative teacher of the Law, I will judge you qualifications by the Law. You know "live by the law die by the law!" Perhaps the biggest problem I have with “want-to-be” Jews is how they approach other believers. Promoting a Law that could not save and that no one but Jesus could keep, they spend their time cloaking their efforts to bring others into the bondage of the Law with quasi Jewish terminology. Friend, I have read the Bible, including the Book of Hebrews, and I know that just claiming to be Jewish does not give you authority with God. So if you’re going to demand the Law be kept, you must be the first to keep it all.
Mat
Mat |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1979
12/27/11 1:56 pm
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| Re: Well, to ALL Biblical scholars..... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Mat wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Mat wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | Why don't you just study something out.... here, Read Ex 32, 33, & 34 to understand
Ex 34:6-7: & Adonai passed by before him (Moshe) & proclaimed, Adonai the L-rd G-d, Merciful & Gracious, Longsuffering, & “Abundant” in Goodness & Truth (Gal 5:22). Verse 7: Keeping Mercy for thousands, “forgiving iniquity” (Jer 31:34) “&” transgressions “&” sin, ……..
Here is a startling new view of a Supreme Monarch on the earth, a King who forgives “Law” breaking, & trespass, & evil to anyone who “seeks” that forgiveness. He will not clear the guilty as long as they remain guilty.
But they need not remain guilty before Him, for His Law provides a Way to His Mercy. This means that the guilty remain guilty until they are willing to meet Elohim, G-d on the grounds of the Mercy which He institutes for their forgiveness.
Both Covenants speak that man needs a meeting with G-d for forgiveness. It’s the confession of sins of breaking Torah & repentance to make wrong things right. & on G-ds part, He offers forgiveness to the sinner for breaking His Torah, Commandments & “cover” him. So that he may enter the Kingdom of G-d.
The Torah, what people say “Old Covenant” that doesn’t matter anymore, was the supreme Wonder on earth, in the world @ that time because of His Mercy that was offered to all.
There never was any Laws in any other nation like it (Deut 4:6-8), now & then for the very reason of Mercy offered to all.
Shalom |
My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; if you are a man are you circumcised; and do you observe every law, including those of the temple?
Mat |
Sir..., Are you saying I have to be "Jewish" to be qualified to speak on the O.T. with your comment: | Quote: | | My question is about your qualification to instruct in the "Old Covenant". Were you born a Jew; |
& I'm pretty sure that is not what you meant.... I hope, because the Whole Bible is Jewish & the temple laws are doen away with with no temple, I am circumcised, & I "was" a gentile, heathen, but now I am as one born in the land after my 1st Passover Ex 12:48, Rom 11:17, the Lamb of G-d John 1:29.
Do you believe the Torah, law of Moshe stands today with your comment?: | Quote: | | My question is not about the greatness of God's Law, I confess it all, from Genesis to Revelation as "God breath". |
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You are welcome to your opinions on any subject; however, for me your opinions are simply that. As to the Bible being "Jewish", before there was Abraham, well you know, and since God can raise up children of Abraham from rocks, again you know. However, if you put yourself forward as an authoritative teacher of the Law, I will judge you qualifications by the Law. You know "live by the law die by the law!" Perhaps the biggest problem I have with “want-to-be” Jews is how they approach other believers. Promoting a Law that could not save and that no one but Jesus could keep, they spend their time cloaking their efforts to bring others into the bondage of the Law with quasi Jewish terminology. Friend, I have read the Bible, including the Book of Hebrews, and I know that just claiming to be Jewish does not give you authority with God. So if you’re going to demand the Law be kept, you must be the first to keep it all.
Mat
Mat |
Mat.... Its not about "being" Jewish, because no one can change their DNA. its about doing what G-d said. The Sabbath is not Jewish, the Feasts are not Jewish, the kosher dietarty food laws are not Jewish, the Torah is not Jewish...
Thats what G-s says is right....
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 2:09 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Bondage is not bondage to Torah, but "mans" ways, laws, etc. |
You are just flat wrong about this. You either received bad teaching or invented your own doctrine.
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Are you reading whaty I have been saying about Mercy & Torah? |
Yes, it is gibberish and false interpretation of Scripture.
Here is part of how you have erred in your ways:
You have adopted a unique and incorrect belief system -- and then you twist verses into matching your false doctrine. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
12/27/11 2:46 pm
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| To Pastor Nations... |
Isa 58:12 |
& this is for bonnie & little "c"
You said that keeping the Old Covenant, Torah is a lie, right?
So is keeping these. Commandments is a lie, we don’t have to keep these? & I am just giving you the “topic” of the Commandments. You just need to read underneath the titles & let me now if we don’t need them anymore. I left out sacrifices & temple laws.
G-d
Torah
Signs and Symbols
Prayer and Blessings
Love and Brotherhood
The Poor and Unfortunate
Tzedakah: Charity.
Treatment of Gentiles
Marriage, Divorce and Family
Forbidden Sexual Relations
Illegitimate Children.
Times and Seasons
Dietary Laws
Treatment of Animals
Business Practices
Employees, Servants and Slaves
Vows, Oaths and Swearing
The Sabbatical and Jubilee Years
The Court and Judicial Procedure
Injuries and Damages
Property and Property Rights
Criminal Laws
Punishment and Restitution
Prophecy
Agriculture and Animal Husbandry
Clothing
The Firstborn
Kohanim and Levites
Care for the Dead
Care for the Dead; Mourning.
T'rumah, Tithes and Taxes
Ritual Purity and Impurity
Lepers and Leprosy
The King
Nazarites
Wars
So all this is no more.....
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 2:49 pm
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| Re: To Pastor Nations... |
Pastor Nations |
Not exactly sure how you are posing the question, but, yes - the old covenant is no more. Period. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
12/27/11 3:06 pm
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| Re: To Pastor Nations... |
Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: |
Not exactly sure how you are posing the question, but, yes - the old covenant is no more. Period. |
Wow, really.... So I don't have to pay any attention to any of those? Why? What was the purpose of G-d laying the Covenant of Torah to His people Y'sreal then?
& what was the reason the Creator had them, Y'sreal (& us) go through the wilderness & fail & punish them for not keeping Torah. Then turn around & give a bunch of people different rules etc? BTW, that sounds to me like replacement theology. Because then all Y'sreal went through was for nothing..
Because it doesn't make sense. Either He is the G-d that does not change, or He is the god that can't make up his mind on what & who are his people, & how he wants them to live....
What do you think His Kindom will be like when He comes back, a Kingdom of Laws, or a kingdom of anarchy?
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 4:01 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Bondage is not bondage to Torah, but "mans" ways, laws, etc. |
You are just flat wrong about this. You either received bad teaching or invented your own doctrine.
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Are you reading whaty I have been saying about Mercy & Torah? |
Yes, it is gibberish and false interpretation of Scripture.
Here is part of how you have erred in your ways:
You have adopted a unique and incorrect belief system -- and then you twist verses into matching your false doctrine. |
| Quote: | [quote="Pastor Nations"] | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Bondage is not bondage to Torah, but "mans" ways, laws, etc. |
You are just flat wrong about this. You either received bad teaching or invented your own doctrine. |
Really, are you sure freind Because what was it that G-d delivered the "children of Y'sreal" out of then? How about this, I did this the last time I was here:
"Bondage" Neh 9:16-19; But they & our fathers dealt proudly, & hardened their necks, & harkened not to Thy Commandments, Torah.
& refused to obey, neither were mindful of Thy Wonders that Thou did among them; but hardened their necks, & in their rebellion (1 Sam 15:23) appointed a captain to "return to their bondage": but Thou art a G-d "ready" to pardon, Gracious & Merciful, Slow to anger, & of Great Kindness, & forsookest them not.
Vs 18; Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, & said, This is thy god that brought thee up out of egypt, & had wrought great provocations;
19; Yet Thou in Thy manifold Mercies forsook them not in the wilderness: the Pillar of the Cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the Way; neither the Pillar of Fire by night, to show them Light (Torah Ps 119:105) & the Way wherein they should go.
Isa 5:13; Therefore My people are gone into "captivity" (bondage), because they have no knowledge (Hos 4:6, Jer 6:19): & their honourable men are "famished", & their multitude dried up with thirst,
In all that guy’s, according to the Bible the people who are in "bondage" are not keeping Torah. & since there was no N.T. back in the days of Y'shua & Paul, what do you really think the yoke, "bondage" in Acts 15:10 & other Scriptures really was?
Is that all "gibberish and false interpretation of Scripture", or is that the Bible?
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 4:07 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Bondage is not bondage to Torah, but "mans" ways, laws, etc. |
You are just flat wrong about this. You either received bad teaching or invented your own doctrine.
| Isa 58:12 wrote: | | Are you reading whaty I have been saying about Mercy & Torah? |
Yes, it is gibberish and false interpretation of Scripture.
Here is part of how you have erred in your ways:
You have adopted a unique and incorrect belief system -- and then you twist verses into matching your false doctrine. |
By the Way, please give me an example.....
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 4:08 pm
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Nature Boy Florida |
There is only one law I have learned from this list.
1) LC shalt not mention posters names that are not interested in having an actual Biblical discussion.
This is the Acts version of poisoning Toomers corner.
Thanks LC. 
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Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16617
12/27/11 5:43 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Nature Boy Florida wrote: | There is only one law I have learned from this list.
1) LC shalt not mention posters names that are not interested in having an actual Biblical discussion.
This is the Acts version of poisoning Toomers corner.
Thanks LC. |
Very sorry you feel that way towards G-ds Holy Word nature boy. Maybe you can give me your insights on the Commandments in the Torah now that you know what they say.
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 6:39 pm
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Pastor Nations |
| My apologies to all for dragging this out - no more on this from me. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1085
12/27/11 7:32 pm
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Isa 58:12 |
| Pastor Nations wrote: | | My apologies to all for dragging this out - no more on this from me. |
What, what the heck does that mean, dragging "this" (Bible) out? All these Commandments in the Torah are in every book of the Bible, New & Old, & they still stand. Why doesn't anyone want to discuss this?
Not one of you has a comment on any of these. Where are all my "Christ freed us from the Law" people that haven't said alot? Because look @ all the headlines to the Commandments, why does anyone think they are free from those?
Not one person has commented on what I was saying about Mercy being connected with the Torah, Law of Moshe...
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/27/11 7:43 pm
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| Ok, to all who believe Torah is no more |
Isa 58:12 |
& don’t believe Torah is G-ds Mercy, let’s look @ other passages I was reading tonight.
Deut 7:11-15: You shall therefore “keep” the Commandments, Torah, & Statutes, & Judgments which “I” (G-d) Command you to do “this” day. 12: Wherefore it “shall” come to pass, “if” you hearken to “these” Judgments, & “keep” & “do” them, that Adonai your G-d “shall” keep unto you the Covenant & the Mercy which He swore to your fathers.
13: & He will love you & Bless you, & multiply you: He will “also” Bless the fruit of your womb, & the fruit of your land, your corn, & your wine, & your oil, the increase of your kine, & flocks of your sheep, in the land which He swore unto your fathers to give you.
14: You “shall” be Blessed above ALL people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle. 15: & Adonai “will” take away from YOU ALL sickness (because of verse 12, “keep”) & will put “none” of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you know upon you; but will lay them upon ALL them that hate you….
Now, these are very telling verses about the Mercy of G-d in the Torah, a lot different from what is taught about the N.T. & what people “think” Paul is saying about Torah. All those verses show clearly the Mercy of G-d for those how “keep” (vs 12) His Torah, Law of Moshe. Here is a long list of Mercies promised:
1. Love
2. Multiply
3. Blessings on ALL fruitfulness & increase of family
4. Land
5. Grain
6. Cattle
7. Olives
8. Sheep (pastors…. churches)
9. Blessed above ALL people especially in fertility of both people & animals.
10. & in addition to ALL those Mercies, the Awesomeness of Elohim, G-d: TO TAKE AWAY ALL SICKNESS..
These are all Mercies of G-d in His Torah that 99% of the Christian world is against because of the twisting of Paul’s writings. Because, how does that fit into the theology that Paul says the Law is a curse, or its done away with? It doesn’t fit brothers & sisters.
How great is such Mercy described right there in Torah? Where today is the Christian churches are these Mercies in full power? Where is the place where ALL sickness is taken away so there is none @ all?
Mercy is not only the pardoning of sin, iniquity, transgressions. In Mercy are included a boat load of Blessings which meet & fill innumerable needs my friends. In these verses they are named & can be numbered. It is good to get a clear understanding of what Paul was saying about Torah, & which “law” he was speaking about. Because there are 2 laws being spoken of.
& it is good to get a clear understanding of what the Bible teaches on the Torah & G-ds Mercies, They are connected, inseparable .
Shalom
_________________
Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/29/11 12:33 am
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Link |
| Isa 58:12 wrote: |
Acts 15 is not really about gentiles keeping Torah, but deals with keeping the religious leaders laws, Acts 15:1 in (which goes back to Gal 6:12, Tit 1:10. & verse 5, the greek word for sect is very helpful
& verse 10, is better understood with what Y'shua said in Matt 23:3-5. & verse 24 goes with verse 10, about people putting a yoke on you, "subverting" your souls saying: "you must be circumcised "&" keep the Torah, Law. |
There is nothing in Acts 15:1 that indicates that the debate was over Gentiles keeping oral Torah or traditions. You are making huge assumptions and reading ideas into the text that are not there.
| Quote: |
This not Torah.... Because the gentiles that converted & went to the synagogues every Sabbath (Acts 15:20) would learn how to live for Elohim. Not have everything slamed on you @ once. It was the religious leaders law that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved Acts 15:1.
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James did comment that Moses was read in every city. But you can't find in the Old Testament that Gentiles had to keep God's law for Israel to live right for God. There are plenty of verses that indicate that the covenant was uniquely for Israel. The kosher laws created a distinction between Israel and the nations according to the book of Leviticus.
We can see from the law that Gentiles should not eat the life in the blood. This was a part of the covenant that God made with Noah, the ancestor of the Gentiles which included not eating blood. We can see that Gentiles were not to commit sexual immorality because Leviticus 18 tells us that Gentiles were repelled from the land for various sexually immoral acts.
In Judaism, apart from the Messianic movement even, there was a debate for several centuries as to whether a Gentile could be righteous without being circumcised and taking on himself the obligation to keep the Law. Eventually, they arrived at 7 Noachine principles, similar to the list of four things the apostles and elders instructed the Gentiles to observe.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
12/29/11 1:11 am
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| Yoour absolutly right Link |
Isa 58:12 |
Acts 15:1 is not about gentiles keeping Torah, its abput gentiles keeping a perversion of Torah @ their conversion. Thats not an assumptions and reading ideas into the text that are not there,.
Gentiles did not have to keep G-ds Torah because they were heathens, outside of G-ds people. Do a quick study on the word gentile in Hebrew & greek.
| Quote: | | But you can't find in the Old Testament that Gentiles had to keep God's law for Israel to live right for God. |
Well sure I can, in Ex 12:43-49, after a "stranger, gentile" partook in his 1st Passover, he was now as 1 "born" in the land vs 48 & 1 Torah, Law was to him vs 49. He wasn't a heathen anymore.... & gentiles came out of egypt too, but weren't apart of Y'sreal until they experienced Passover. Because G-d never said to Moshe speak to the gentiles, & speak to the Jews this & that. He said speak to the "children of Y'sreal".
So when a heathen, gentile gets saved in Mashiach, Messiah Y'shua he is grafted into Y'sreal Rom 11:17, or as 1 "born" in the land, he takes on being in the kehillah, "comunity" of Y'sreal Eph 2:19-20, Rom 9:4.
| Quote: | | James did comment that Moses (Torah) was read in every city. But you can't find in the Old Testament that Gentiles had to keep God's law for Israel to live right for God. There are plenty of verses that indicate that the covenant was uniquely for Israel. The kosher laws created a distinction between Israel and the nations according to the book of Leviticus. |
Yes Link, There are plenty of verses that indicate that the covenant was uniquely for Israel. The kosher laws created a distinction between Israel and the nations according to the book of Leviticus. So why wouldn't a gentile who has been grafted into, as 1 born in the "land" of Y'sreal not have to keep Torah that is the distinction, unique, & set Y'sreal apart from eveyone else.
Because a family is united, not divided like you see today with every denomination doing something different. Is that G-ds family, or does G-d have a certian distinction, unique Way that He has set up for His people?
| Quote: | | We can see from the law that Gentiles should not eat the life in the blood. This was a part of the covenant that God made with Noah, the ancestor of the Gentiles which included not eating blood. We can see that Gentiles were not to commit sexual immorality because Leviticus 18 tells us that Gentiles were repelled from the land for various sexually immoral acts. |
Yes, my point exactly my friend, gentiles, heathens can't & will not be obedient to G-d, thats Rom 8:5-8. They cannot please G-d (Rom 8:8) & they are put out of the land.
| Quote: | | In Judaism, apart from the Messianic movement even, there was a debate for several centuries as to whether a Gentile could be righteous without being circumcised and taking on himself the obligation to keep the Law. Eventually, they arrived at 7 Noachine principles, similar to the list of four things the apostles and elders instructed the Gentiles to observe. |
Yes there have been debates on whether or not gentiles (after conversion) should be circumcised & keep Torah, be apart of Y'sreal or not. Paul went threw the same stuff, & he said in 1 Cor 12:13: For by One Spirit are we made into "One" body, whether Jew or gentile..., gentiles are united, not divided. Because there is a difference between Jews & gentiles, we do different things Ex 11:7.
The "7 Noach principles" for gentiles are nowhere found in Scriptures, if I remember correctly, I think that came out of 1 of the writings like the talmud, mishnah, gamatera, etc. Because there are more Laws found before the flood other than just 7.
Hope that helps & thanks for the good questions, Shalom
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem
Last edited by Isa 58:12 on 12/29/11 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/29/11 9:40 am
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Isa 58:12 |
If you read the comment @ the top page 5, why wouldn't a gentile want to be apart of that?
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Ps 122:6 Pray for the Peace of Y'erusalem |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2547
12/29/11 10:21 am
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