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Why Is "Wives Submitting," a Taboo Topic?
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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
As far as defining what submission should look like, in the same passages where wives are told to submit to their husbands, slaves are told to submit to their masters. At least Link recognized this fact a couple of weeks ago when he expressed some puzzlement as to whether wives should submit to being beaten like slaves were instructed to by Peter.


'Asked a thought-provoking question' or 'asked a challenging question' would be a more accurate portrayal of my post.
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Last edited by Link on 12/14/11 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/14/11 4:20 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
I believe the allowance for slavery in the Bible was a culturally conditioned allowance, not a universally applicable standard of righteousness, for it clearly is contrary to the Golden Rule, the highest revelation of God's law. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/14/11 4:21 pm


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Paul wrote to the slave-owner Philemon,

5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;

Scripture says he had love. God has slaves, and God is love.
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12/14/11 4:24 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
A high view of Scripture means one respects Scripture enough to understand its context and interpret and apply it righteously.

So for those who ARE sold into slavery in our day (and it does still exist in some places) you would say they need to just submit, and that that is God's will for them, right?
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12/14/11 4:24 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
A slave of Christ is one who voluntarily submits to Him out of love. God doesn't mistreat anyone, nor does He advocate mistreatment of anyone. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/14/11 4:25 pm


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Quiet Wyatt,

All the slavery I know of in the world is illegal kidnapping and trading of workers for the industry, so I wouldn't say these scriptures apply to those situations.

I do wonder if it would be more just if we had some of those criminals they put in jail for 20 years work as the slave of the person they stole from for 7 years or their labor was enough to compensate for their crime. That was a possible penalty in the Old Testament.
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12/14/11 4:27 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Paul also told Philemon that he should consider Onesimus as a brother now, no longer as a slave.

Philemon 1:16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. NIV


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 12/14/11 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/14/11 4:28 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
A high view of Scripture means one respects Scripture enough to understand its context and interpret and apply it righteously.



I suppose we could start another thread on slavery. On the topic of marriage, do you have any reason to think that marriage today is a completely different thing from marriage in the first century? Is there a cultural reason why the expression of the relationship between Christ and the church should not apply to marriages today?
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12/14/11 4:28 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Paul and Peter didn't see the need to separate these two aspects of submission. They are directly linked in the biblical contexts. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/14/11 4:29 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Anyone who is a student of ancient history would know that marriage is a very different thing today from back then. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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12/14/11 4:31 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Paul also told Philemon that he should consider Onesimus as a brother now, no longer as a slave.

Philemon 1:16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord. 17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. 18 If he has done you any wrong or owes you anything, charge it to me. NIV


Paul was asking a favor of Philemon, based partly on the fact that Paul had done so much for Philemon. Paul did not ask Philemon to free all his slaves. He did not command Christian masters to free their slaves in his other epistles.

I'd rather discuss marriage in this thread. I do not think society is required to have slavery. I don't shed any tears at all over its being being abolished for the most part. On the other hand, I don't condemn people from past generations for having slaves, including the saints in the Bible. I think we have to be very careful to differentiate between ideas that come from our culture or national philosophy and truth as revealed in God's word.
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Last edited by Link on 12/14/11 4:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Wyatt... FloridaForever
Here's what "mature" submission looks like:

It is disagreeing gently...yet yielding if the husband persists.

It is speaking your mind in the right spirit.

It is understanding that your husband may not always be right, but he is still the leader of the home.

It is "putting on the brakes" only when the husband is going to do something ungodly/immoral/dangerous/destructive. Etc. Sometimes a wife may have to virtually or literally "save" her husband's life from a bad decision.

An INSUBMISSIVE wife will likely make a husband's life difficult even over small matters.

I mean, why does submission HAVE to be a bad thing? Don't you do it for your bosses? I sure did/do. There's plenty of things I might want them to change, but if they don't, I don't get all pouty about it. I just keep on doing my job...unless it's a matter of principle.

Same with husbands and wives.
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12/14/11 4:31 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Paul and Peter didn't see the need to separate these two aspects of submission. They are directly linked in the biblical contexts.


Paul did not tell men to love their slaves as their own bodies or even that the master slave relationship was a mystery related to the relationship between Christ and the church. Paul does nto say that men are or should be one flesh with their slaves. Peter does not tell men to honor their slaves as a weaker vessel so that their prayers will not be hindered.
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12/14/11 4:33 pm


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FloridaForever wrote:
Here's what "mature" submission looks like:

It is disagreeing gently...yet yielding if the husband persists.

It is speaking your mind in the right spirit.

It is understanding that your husband may not always be right, but he is still the leader of the home.

It is "putting on the brakes" only when the husband is going to do something ungodly/immoral/dangerous/destructive. Etc. Sometimes a wife may have to virtually or literally "save" her husband's life from a bad decision.

An INSUBMISSIVE wife will likely make a husband's life difficult even over small matters.


I actually agree with most of what you say here. Submission can be a somewhat subtle thing.
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12/14/11 4:35 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Just in case this was missed...
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
1 Pet. 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.


Both slaves submitting to their masters and wives submitting to their husbands are inextricably linked in the New Testament passages which treat the subject. You can't just pick and choose. One is every bit as 'scripturally' valid as the other.
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12/14/11 4:36 pm


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Quiet Wyatt wrote:
Just in case this was missed...
Both slaves submitting to their masters and wives submitting to their husbands are inextricably linked in the New Testament passages which treat the subject. You can't just pick and choose. One is every bit as 'scripturally' valid as the other.


Unless I missed a post from FF, no one is arguing with you about this. It makes sense that submission of wives to husbands, children to parents, and slaves to masters are mentioned together in two of Paul's epistles. Slaves were a part of the household back then and lived with the family.

The Bible commands no one to become another man's slave (except slaves of Christ.) If there were slavery, and wilfully sold yourself into slavery, you would be required to submit to your master.

We aren't required to marry, but we are not allowed to have sex if we don't marry. People want sex, they want children, and they want the companionship that comes with marriage. If you marry, then along with that comes the obligation to keep the Biblical commandments about marriage.

Btw, do you think that in this modern age, children no longer are required to obey their parents? What about submitting to government? They didn't have modern style democracy in the Roman republic. Are we no longer required to submit to the government?
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12/14/11 4:41 pm


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Post Wyatt...here is what I think is being missed FloridaForever
Yes, slaves are to SUBMIT to their masters. What Paul is saying to the CHRISTIAN slaves is that "don't just do it because you HAVE to; do it because you exhibit a spirit of submission."

In other words, a slave could be an unsubmissive slave. He still had to do what he was FORCED to do, but he might still have an attitude (internal or external) about it.

Paul is saying to obey in the right spirit. In a certain sense, he is not making any moral statement on slavery at all. He is saying, "Bad things happen; keep a Christian attitude."

So, yes, wives should act LIKEWISE--not out of being forced, but with a good attitude.

No one is FORCED into this type of submission. It is decided by the person.
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12/14/11 5:07 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Link wrote:

The Bible commands no one to become another man's slave (except slaves of Christ.) If there were slavery, and wilfully sold yourself into slavery, you would be required to submit to your master.


Link wrote:
If you marry, then along with that comes the obligation to keep the Biblical commandments about marriage.


So you do see submission in each of these cases as being obligatory. What do you mean in real, practical terms by "keep the biblical commandments about marriage?" What does your wife submitting to you mean? Or anyone else's wife submitting to her husband? What precisely? How is it materially different from the submission of a slave? She does what he says no matter what?

Link wrote:
Btw, do you think that in this modern age, children no longer are required to obey their parents? What about submitting to government? They didn't have modern style democracy in the Roman republic. Are we no longer required to submit to the government?


Children need to be raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, and must be disciplined, though I definitely do not advocate beating them with a rod even though it is scriptural, according to Proverbs, to do so. Since they are quite vulnerable and need love and protection, parents have a basic obligation to take care of their kids and to raise them in such a way as to bring them to become mature Christians and to love their neighbor. I don't see my wife as a child who needs to be taken care of in that way, though in biblical times (just as is true to this day in many cultures) wives were basically treated like children under the guise of submission to their husbands. Not saying you are saying this should be the case, since you haven't really outlined what submission means to you and how it might differ from such cultures.

As far as the government, I affirm that we are to obey man's law so long as it does not contradict God's law. Sometimes we must obey God rather than man. For instance, I believe Christians were absolutely justified in disobeying their government by sheltering Jews from the Nazis. I do not believe that, for instance, "I was just obeying orders" would be a valid excuse for a Nazi soldier to participate in persecuting and murdering people back then.
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12/14/11 5:15 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
FF,

One quick post and then I have to go run for now...

Even 'coercive' slavery is voluntary in that the slave fears punishment more than he values freedom.

No one can truly own another person in the sense that they might own a beast of burden.

The issue as I see it with regard to "submission" is the very real tendency for a bully or a tyrant to use the concept as a pretext for mistreating others. Not saying anyone here is necessarily advocating that. I understand that someone can of course voluntarily submit to be a servant/slave. What troubles me about the issue most is when men would use it to basically mistreat others and thus violate the Golden Rule.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 12/14/11 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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12/14/11 5:20 pm


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Post bonnie knox
Link wrote:
The wife not submitting to her husband is a cause for conflict in many marriages. One problem in a lot of marriages is the wife's mouth.


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12/14/11 5:34 pm


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