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roughridercog

That's easy

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **12/14/11 1:19 pm**

Our wives won't let us discuss the topic. Laughing

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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

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Re: That's easy

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 1:39 pm**

FloridaForever

Political-correctness in the House of the Lord

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **12/14/11 2:18 pm**

Some men have been intimidated from speaking about or expecting submission. They have been made to feel that they must be control freaks to actually want to be in charge of what God put them in charge of. Some have been made to think tha they must be tyrant to expect to head the home.

Some have been indoctrinated. Often by preachers who KNOW they can get plenty more amens by preaching on how men ought to treat their wives...than how wives ought to treat their husbands.

And some men are plain out sissies.

I would rather DIVORCE than to relinquish my rights as a man. I mean that.

That being said, I can't imagine there's an easier man to get along with than me. There are only a FEW things I care about. I don't care where of what we eat for dinner (97% of the time). I don't care what my wife spends or spends it on. I am very easy going on such things. ONLY when something comes up against a principle or (more rarely) against a personal desire, do I expect submission.

Of course, expecting and getting are two different things. But like I said, I would rather divorce, indeed die, than relinquish my birthright.

In today's world, submission is harder to find (I have a much younger wife). Women make more money, have all the tools to run a household, have stronger opinions, etc. It's not easy asking for submission. A godly woman will give it easily. At other times, it can be a challenge.

But a godly man is, I believe, REQUIRED to do this. Perhaps THIS is the real meaning of "the effeminate"? That is, maybe acting gay or girly is not taking your role seriously...or leaving it all up to the woman.

***some of this might be written just a bit facetiously...but not much***

roughridercog

In all honesty...

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **12/14/11 2:34 pm**

this issue should be dealt with before ever taking the marriage vow. During the time of courtship, if the man and woman see this is going to be an issue, then it would be better to not get married, go their separate way, rather than make their home a battlefield.

Just my opinion.
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Doctor of Bovinamodulation

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Re: In all honesty...

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 3:04 pm**

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Link · Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 3:08 pm**

FF,

I wouldn't encourage a man to divorce his wife if she is unsubmissive. The man is called to love his wife as Christ loved the church. Christ gave His life for the church. And how much has Christ forgiven us when we sinned? If your wife is sinning by being unsubmissive, doesn't loving her like Christ loved the church mean that you should forgive her and be patient with her?

And if your wife is not submissive to you, is it at all clear from scripture that she is sinning against you? She is supposed to be submitting to you 'as unto the Lord.' It is the Lord's right, not your birthright, for your wife to submit to you.

As far as being easy-going goes, I could probably give you a run for your money. I don't micromanage anything my wife does. She loves to cook and I don't demand certain meals. Occasionally, if I tell her I crave something, she'll make it. But I have an excellent wife who is extremely diligent about the home. We are both thrifty. We usually talk about things and don't disagree much about how to run the household. But a husband married to a shopoholic who runs up credit card bills or a woman who is lazy about the house may have to take a completely different approach to being a husband.
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bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **12/14/11 3:13 pm**

Sorry, ForeverFlorida has you beaten, hands down! When he craves a certain dish, he cooks it himself.

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 3:21 pm**

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **12/14/11 3:23 pm**

You still don't win the "easy-going" contest with FF. Sorry.

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 3:24 pm**

bonnie knox

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 14803 **12/14/11 3:26 pm**

Keep trying.

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **12/14/11 3:38 pm**

It is 'taboo' for the same reason advocating in favor of slavery is taboo. While slavery was acceptable in a limited way by the Scriptures, it is definitely not so any longer.

I always am curious what guys in our day and time actually mean in real terms by "wives need to submit to their husbands."

I love my wife with all my heart and would do anything I could for her (and she feels the same about me) but I can't for the life of me imagine ever even wanting to treat her like a slave or a child, bossing her around, making a big deal about me being in charge of her, etc. We are a team. I would not want to do without her, and I would never want to diminish her spirit by making her think she had to get my permission for everything and make sure she didn't disrespect me somehow, etc.

FloridaForever

Quiet Wyatt...

Golf Cart Mafia Soldier Posts: 2295 **12/14/11 4:07 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **12/14/11 4:10 pm**

I know that it is 'biblical' just as slavery is 'biblical'.

Quiet Wyatt

Quiet Wyatt · [Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **12/14/11 4:12 pm**

As far as defining what submission should look like, in the same passages where wives are told to submit to their husbands, slaves are told to submit to their masters. At least Link recognized this fact a couple of weeks ago when he expressed some puzzlement as to whether wives should submit to being beaten like slaves were instructed to by Peter.

So the onus is on those who would make a huge deal about wives submitting to their husbands to explain precisely how THEY would differentiate between wives submitting and slaves submitting.

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 4:14 pm**

Wyatt,

We still have the institution of marriage in our society. We don't have the institution of slavery. If we had slavery in our society, then the instructions of scripture about slavery would apply.

Why wouldn't the Bible apply now if it applied back in the first century. If you are a dispensationlist, then you'd say this is the same dispensation as then (if you a Pentecostal version of a dispensationalist, that is.) The rules haven't changed since then.

Paul's instructions for husbands and wives are particularly important because there is a mystery in marriage, a mystery of Christ and the church. Through having a Biblical marriage like Paul teaches, we can learn about this experientially. What happens if we don't follow Paul's instructions--if we say they are not for today? What kind of message do we send to the world? What kind of effects will that have on society?

Our culture used to be somewhat patriarchical. Men were expected to be the head of their homes. Wives were expected to submit to their husbands. It was an honorable thing to be a wife and mother. We've moved away from that. Our divorce rates have skyrocketed and there are all kinds of problems with our nations youth. Something has gone wrong with society.

Should a man treat his wife like a slave? No, of course not. That shouldn't have been the case even in the first century. But the man should be the head of his wife.

I don't boss my around. I don't say, "Do this, submit to me woman." But if a wife submits to her husband, it can solve a lot of problems. Some of the examples I give will have more to do with a wife respecting/reverencing her husband than submission perhaps, but the issues are closely related.

I knew a man who had recently married in Indonesia. My wife and I went over to their house for dinner. My wife later told me that his wife ordered him "Go sweep that up!" while we were there. It sounded rude and bossy. A wife can ask her husband for help in a respectful manner. But she should order him around. If this woman realized that and decided to obey scripture on the issue, she would have asked nicely, and if he said he couldn't do it then, she would have accepted that.

If the wife does not have a submissive or respectful attitude, and her husband makes a mistake, she might chew him out. Let's say he gets into a fender bender, or let's say he forgets and files the family taxes on the 16th. If the wife is not respectful and submissive, she may lay into him and give him a verbal lecturing, nay, a verbal thrashing for his mistake. But if she is submissive and respectful, she realizes her husband is her head, so if she has concerns about what he did, she controls her tongue and expresses herself in a respectful manner. These things are subtle, but a woman realizing that her husband has headship over her, and that she is to submit to him as to Christ can greatly change how she treats him and how they interact. It can also lead to peace in the home for both the husband and the wife.

We often hear submission applied to situations where the husband and wife talk about a decision and can't agree on something. The wife should submit to her husband on these issues. I agree with that, but I don't think submission means she should grit her teeth and accept the decision with a scowl on her face. If she has a submissive heart, it won't be this way.

There is always the stereotypical case of the wife submitting to her husband when her husband is the type who would demand a lot of submission or be difficult to submit to. If the husband is bossy or controlling, which we would agree would generally be undesirable traits, then the wife has to have a lot more self-control if she wants to submit to that situation. If a husband is difficult, that doesn't mean the woman is off the hook when it comes to submission. Peter told women to submit to husbands, even those who don't obey the word. We can't expect unbelievers to love their wives like Christ loves the church. If a believer is a bossy husband, other brothers can talk to him and maybe disciple him.

Some couples will go to marriage counseling, even Christian marriage counseling, and get a lot of talk about communication, respect, validating each other's feelins, making the other person feel loved and many other good concepts. But what happens if the husband brings up the issue of wives submitting to husbands? If the counselor's method is based on scripture, he may respect that question and find out if this is a root cause of the problem. But if his counseling is based on the wisdom of this age, he may think the husband is a control freak. The wife not submitting to her husband is a cause for conflict in many marriages. One problem in a lot of marriages is the wife's mouth. If she submits to her husband as unto the Lord and respects him, she isn't going to give him a verbal lashing, even when she is right and he is wrong. She will speak to him in a respectful manner. If they disagree on some issue, she will submit to him, and that will do away with some conflict. And plenty of marriage problems are caused by men not loving their wives as Christ loved the church. Men can be selfish in a lot of ways.

Honestly, it is strange to me that a preacher in a conservative denomination that says that the Bible is the word of God would take issue with the idea of a wife submitting to her husband. I know the idea is foreign to our culture of gender egalitarianism. But it is an important Biblical issue. How is rejecting the idea that a wife should submit to her husband consistent with a high view of scripture?
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Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **12/14/11 4:16 pm**

So for the record, Link, you wouldn't have a problem with slavery today if it weren't illegal in our day, correct?

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 4:17 pm**

Quiet Wyatt,

I Peter tells believers to submit to kings, and then tells slaves to submit to their masters, and then tells wives 'in the same way' to submit to their husbands.

Submission is submission, whether it is to a ruler, to an earthly master, or to a husband. When you submit, you do the other person's will. You come under that other person's authority.

There is a difference though, in how a husband is to treat his wife and a master is to treat a slave. It is not the same relationship.
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Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **12/14/11 4:18 pm**

Quiet Wyatt

[Insert Acts Pun Here] Posts: 12802 **12/14/11 4:20 pm**

1 Pet. 2:18 Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. 20But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22“He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
23When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. 25For you were like sheep going astray, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
3:1 Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives.