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Is The Administrative Bishop Out Of Order?
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I wonder if this would have gone any further if the AB had said he wouldn't entertain any accusations unless there are two or three witnesses, and then only if it was sin. If its not a sin issue, he could call the pastor and share the complaint. If it is a sin issue, two witnesses could have approached him before he proceeded with anything.

If ABs regularly call pastor's councils, this thing probably would not have been a big deal.
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10/4/11 4:03 pm


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Post Cojak
Even if the pastor was wrong or right, he should still have been the first to be called. Otherwise the AB is stabbing him in the back. Crying or Very sad
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10/4/11 7:16 pm


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Post Re: Blew the guy up chainrattler
doyle wrote:
That very, very unwise AB, caused an explosion in that Pastor's ministry there. He threw gas on one little, negative, spark and BLEW that Pastor away.


That's all right, Doyle, preachers are a dime a dozen. Pastors come and go, but the church is always there!
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10/4/11 8:11 pm


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Post Larry Wiley
IMO, and most don't care about that.

This AB should be seriously scolded by the Exec Committie, then made to go to the church council and apologize for stirring trouble from one lady who would not give her name.

If he could not produce a name then how can you know he is telling the truth.

How much training does it require to use this much wisdom.

If I were the AB, I would inform the lady that I could do nothing without a name.
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10/4/11 8:32 pm


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Post See other post otium sanctum
This state overseer is in violation of the minutes Pages 121-122 of the 2010 Minutes S40. Pastor section 3 Friendly Face
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10/4/11 9:56 pm


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Post If I don't get the name of the accuser... Rife Stewart
This is where I say,..."Brother AB, in the future, please don't call me to talk about a situation in the church I pastor if you aren't going to disclose all the details. In the future if you can't call me first, don't call me at all."

Scripture says if you are offering a gift at the altar and remember your brother has an offense against you; leave your gift and go be reconciled to that brother. This pastor can't even do that because he doesn't know who the offended is. They way I see it, the AB has created a situation for the pastor where he can't even obey scripture.

I don't play that junk and we ain't gonna have that here. This is religion, impure and simple.
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10/5/11 12:25 am


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Post Rick Mack
Eddie Robbins wrote:
A question: Is there an AB Manual? I know that some things seem to be common sense but is there a manual that says this is wrong? I don't know. Anybody?


I agree with you here Eddie and I will add that they need to have pastored small, medium and large churches. Some ojt...although this may be impractical.
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10/5/11 6:57 am


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Post skinnybishop
With his actions, the AB has ruined the pastor's ministry at this church.

By listening to this lady and then calling the council (amazing) he has contributed to and participated in the sowing of discord in the church.

This is beyond a mistake iyam. A mistake would have been to listen to the lady who wouldn't give her name. That would have been bad enough.

But to bypass the pastor and call the council with information from an unnamed source is beyond a mistake in my opinion. It sounds like the AB wants someone else in the church and is taking advantage of the situation.

Flame away if you like, but I think the AB should be resign or be removed.

There is NO excuse for an AB calling Pastor's Council members without speaking to a sitting pastor first. None.

How would this AB feel if the pastor took HIS concerns to the PB, instead of dealing with him?
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10/5/11 7:28 am


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Post I totally agree... Rife Stewart
Lord Chancellor wrote:
The moment you cloak yourself in anonymity, you've shown you have something to hide and your complaint has lost credibility.


**Just to clarify--my comments were not made as a slam against LC....I really do agree with him that if someone (who is making allegations) cloaks themselves in anonymity, then they have disqualified themselves, IMHO.


Last edited by Rife Stewart on 10/5/11 10:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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10/5/11 8:26 am


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Post Been There HighFive
New overseer who knew nothing about my church or me as an individual. Met with a group from my church privately for almost four months. A group with a long history in the COG who could have deceived almost anyone with their "we care about the church" demeanor. He makes a pledge to them to "get me out " and save the church. When he finally told me what he had been doing, MAD doesn't do justice to my feelings. I could have actually brought charges against him but chose not to. After it was all said and done, he saw the situation for what it was and apologized and assisted and supported me in a new direction in my ministry. He even shared with a friend of mine that some personal issues he faced later was a reaping of his horrible treatment of my situation. I don't know because those things are in God's Hands. The pain and hurt he caused me and my family was indescribable but the healing power of the Holy Spirit brought me through it and I am a better and blessed person because of it. To God be the glory.
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10/5/11 11:11 am


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Post theElder
We on Acts just love to jump into the middle of situations that we, personally, know nothing about except what is written in a post.

I'm not defending the actions that are alleged here but we are hearing nothing but one side of the situation. There are ALWAYS two sides and, generally, when you hear both sides it brings a little more balance to the picture.

Had that situation occured where I had personal knowledge of it I would be writing a letter to every EC member bringing it to their attention. I would not be posting here on ACTS for every Tom, Dick and Susie to speculate on who the parties are. If I were in a state with a new AB I could not help but wonder if it was my guy who did this. That kind of suspicion can not do anyone any good!

As I've gone back and read the comments by various posters the story is getting worse. This reminds me of the kids game of lining people up, telling the first one a story and having them tell it to the one behind and so on. When it gets to the end of the line it is usually unrecognizable.

Lee Roy Brown, write the EC members if what you are posting is true. Their attention needs to be brought to bear in this situation. If it is true I would expect them to make sure this kind of thing never happens again.
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10/5/11 12:05 pm


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Post Link
Lord Chancellor wrote:

If it were me, and the AB refused to give me a name, then we'd have nothing to talk about and I would not discuss nor even entertain the complaint.

This is a personal policy of mine, which I also employ as a pastor.

If you don't give me a name, then it didn't happen, or it's not important enough to warrant my consideration.

If it was important enough or warranted my attention, then that person would come to me and talk about the problem or else would have no reservation letting their identity be revealed. The moment you cloak yourself in anonymity, you've shown you have something to hide and your complaint has lost credibility.


So are you posting under your real name now?
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10/5/11 4:43 pm


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Post LC, bonnie knox
So have you or have you not worn Victorian dress? I mean if you're posting under your real name and that's your real picture, it sure looks like you're wearing Victorian clothes. Wink

Also, back in your day, did prickish mean easily irritated? I thought Link was getting a little prickish about your identity, but I wanted to double check the meaning, and I'm afraid that original usage has fallen out of fashion.
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10/5/11 6:03 pm


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Post Just to clarify Rife Stewart
**My earlier comments were not made as a slam against LC using a penname...I respect that....I truly was agreeing with him that if someone (who is making allegations) cloaks themselves in anonymity, then they have disqualified themselves, IMHO.[/b] Acts-celerater
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10/5/11 10:31 pm


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Post Re: I would call it a total overreaction c6thplayer1
roughridercog wrote:
But thank you for not naming names at this time. If it is in reality an actual situation, may I suggest praying about it and letting the AB, pastor, and church go through this together rather than us continually beat on the beehive.

Just a suggestion.


the best part of this entire post is " beat on the beehive." I havent heard this in years... Now I have a pretty good Idea how old Rough is... ha
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10/6/11 2:31 pm


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Post Wouldn't it be great if... Joshua Henson
Every local church had a discussion forum where they could criticize the decisions of their leadership "without naming names".

That way they could criticize and cause division without it being called "gossip".

That would be wonderful...a forum where congregants could vent about decisions which they do not agree without all of the information. That's a great way to grow a church. I bet that church would explode with growth...well, at least explode.

Now that's cutting edge...every local church needs one of those. Shocked
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10/7/11 7:18 pm


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Post RE: Rick Metzgar Jr
In the C.O.G. system that is a perfectly acceptable way to handle it. If you agree to stay within the system and that is your choice, then you also agree to this mechanism of power that is vested within the state overseer. I suppose the point I am making is the larger issue is the very fact you are in the system is showing you agree with the system--other wise it is the choice of the pastor to kindly move on to another organization or start a new church. The C.O.G. vests all power of discretion and choice to the overseer. Golf Cart Mafia Associate
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10/10/11 1:12 pm


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Post Re: RE: chainrattler
Rick Metzgar Jr wrote:
In the C.O.G. system that is a perfectly acceptable way to handle it. If you agree to stay within the system and that is your choice, then you also agree to this mechanism of power that is vested within the state overseer. I suppose the point I am making is the larger issue is the very fact you are in the system is showing you agree with the system--other wise it is the choice of the pastor to kindly move on to another organization or start a new church. The C.O.G. vests all power of discretion and choice to the overseer.


What you are saying may be very well true, Rick, but I think there is a disconnect between those who are familiar with and work closely with the COG system (pastors, ministers, state and international officials) and the congregations in the field.

"The Ministry" sees the system and recognizes its authority by fiat, but I bet there are congregations, probably multiple congregations, who see authority existing on the local level between the pastor and the church, and do not recognize at all the authority of the AB.

I'm betting there are churches with pastor's councils, that if you sat down with the members of those councils, they would tell you as far as they are concerned, if the AB comes in and tries to throw his weight around, they (meaning themselves and the congregation) will simply go down the road and join another church and leave the AB with an empty building and the bills that go with it. I bet you would get this response even from churches who have been strong churches back in the day.


People ask the difference between a leader and a boss. . . The leader works in the open, and the boss in covert. The leader leads, and the boss drives.
- Theodore Roosevelt

Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
- Abraham Lincoln

"There go the people, and I must follow ... for I am their leader."

quoted from: Alexandre Ledru-Rollin, although Gandhi is also know to have said this.


Jesus does not rule his kingdom through coercion, nor does He allow His valid leaders to do the same. He very explicitly gave the command that leaders in his kingdom were not to "lord their authority" over those under their care. Instead, they are to become the servants and lowest of all, washing the disiciples' feet, not driving them with a whip.
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10/10/11 1:57 pm


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Post Re: LC, chainrattler
bonnie knox wrote:
So have you or have you not worn Victorian dress? I mean if you're posting under your real name and that's your real picture, it sure looks like you're wearing Victorian clothes. Wink

Also, back in your day, did prickish mean easily irritated? I thought Link was getting a little prickish about your identity, but I wanted to double check the meaning, and I'm afraid that original usage has fallen out of fashion.


LC is like the Mormons and ultra conservative Jews, he wears his Victorian dress under his other clothing so that he can be buried in it, like they are.
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10/10/11 2:03 pm


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Post church blogs..Joshua Henson Change Agent
Josusha Henson's idea might work. It would be a great way for the AB to know what is going on in the local churches without having to visit. At least the AB would get to see the problem from many viewpoints instead of just one viewpoint.

Doyle, how did you start Acts-Celerate?
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10/10/11 2:10 pm


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