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skinnybishop

Pastor's pay post "worst ever" in my opinion

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1055 **9/29/11 7:28 am**

Clint's post from yesterday: I think this may be the worst post I've ever read on this board. Following is what his post said:

"I think that the Pastor's salary is the last thing to get paid...sorry if that rubs some of you the wrong way. Look, my dad is a pastor, and I will one day collect a salary from a church as well. I know of a pastor here in Bend that collected his regular salary every week while his church was being foreclosed on. A lot of good that salary did him when he lost his church.

I guess it depends on how you view your calling. I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I am called to Bend, OR. I could have taken a lead pastor role several times over and collected a salary, but I didn't because I am called to this city more than I am called to get paid to minister. Right now I make a good living outside the ministry, and get paid exactly $0 to work as the associate pastor at my church.

The thing is, while I definitely feel a calling to full-time ministry, God never said WHEN I'd start getting paid. He did, however, put me in this city to reach the lost in any way possible. If my calling depended on a paycheck, then I would have moved on years ago, but it doesn't. My calling depends on following God's leading in where to go and what to do.

My standing (and my church's standing) in this community are more important to me than money I get out of it. My integrity (and as a lead pastor your church paying it's bills is connected to your integrity) is more expensive than my salary, that's for sure!!

I thank God for blessing me with a great secular job that frees me up to minister on the side. I can't ever imagine taking money from a church that can't pay it's bills. Just like the utilities are the "church's bill", so is the pastor's salary. If you take a hit on one bill, shouldn't it be the one that does less damage to the body??"

1. He isn't getting paid, but thinks THOSE WHO ARE should be last on list.
2. Jobs are great things....a lot of people need them.
3. Written as if he is SO much more spiritual than others
4. Assumes a "pay me or else" attitude from pastors
5. He's just wrong.

Through the years, many pastors have given up salary and much more for the church. Many of us have. But that should be up to the pastor, it should never be automatically assumed his compensation is "fair game". Given the choice, many pastors will give back to the church.

I think Clint's post is awful. What say you?

Travis Johnson

Acts-dicted Posts: 7862 **9/29/11 7:35 am**

I think Clint has a point. But, you do too.

We all know of situations where people ran a church into the ground and experienced no personal loss in the process. The church was a paycheck/piggybank...nothing more or less.

We also know pastors who through great personal sacrifice helped the church move forward.

I'd say it depends. You don't want to respond to a situation by handicapping the church and further complicating the situation. You also don't want to allow a situation to develop where you have a hireling over the church that is comfortable gutting the church of all its resources and then dismounting the horse once its dead.

usefull

Friendly Face Posts: 348 **9/29/11 7:43 am**

Just chalk it up to inexperience, until you have experience what it is like to take a $100 ck to the bank and they tell you there is not enough money in the acct to cash it, it is easy to say what everyone else should do.

skinnybishop

Re: Worst post ever?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1055 **9/29/11 7:54 am**

[quote="Lord Chancellor"]Obviously, you were fortunate enough to not have been on Actscelerate when youngbishop81 posted.[/quote]

Ooops! Forgot about him. I retract my accusation. :D

skinnybishop

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1055 **9/29/11 7:56 am**

[quote="Travis Johnson"]I think Clint has a point. But, you do too.

We all know of situations where people ran a church into the ground and experienced no personal loss in the process. The church was a paycheck/piggybank...nothing more or less.

We also know pastors who through great personal sacrifice helped the church move forward.

I'd say it depends. You don't want to respond to a situation by handicapping the church and further complicating the situation. You also don't want to allow a situation to develop where you have a hireling over the church that is comfortable gutting the church of all its resources and then dismounting the horse once its dead.[/quote]

Agree with this. My point being, generally speaking, there is no reason to expect the pastor to be at the end of the line. That's all I'm saying.

doyle

Heart

doyle · Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **9/29/11 10:25 am**

What I see in Clint's post is his heart. It's that kind of "heart" that has moved the Lord's work forward over the centuries.

Almost all the strong churches now in the COG and other denominations too, those who now pay good salaries and benefits for pastors, were started and moved forward by pastors who worked secular jobs to help keep the church afloat financially.

I grew up with ministers who framed houses, dug ditches, laid carpet and almost any other construction job they could find to earn a living. When dad was pastoring a church near Exeter, California, he got a contract to do the sheet-rock work on 35 new houses.

I was 16 and dad and I sheet-rocked every one of those houses so our family would have support. Dad had a heart for ministry that included being willing to do secular work to move the church along.

From his example, I view those who work secular jobs and then care for the local church with little pay from that source, as heroes.

Many reading this thread have done exactly that and many still are. They have the same heart that Clint does. They want to see the Lord's work progress even if they have to work jobs outside the church to keep it going.

The first five state overseers of the Church of God in Georgia, received almost no monetary benefit from their work. There were few churches and few people in the ones they did have. Society then was nearly 100 percent agricultural so those overseers often farmed, plowed, raised pigs, raised chickens and anything else they could do to keep the work going.

I actually think Clint's post is one of the better ones on Accelerate because it shows his heart for ministry and for his church. I also think a lot of our viewers who pastor churches with nice salaries, would take a cutback and would work secular jobs to help supplement their church if it comes to that.

Should the pastor be the last one to be paid? I'm not in complete agreement with Clint on that. The local church should view supplying the needs of their pastor as one of their obligations too.

Clint also stated that he is doing well financially in secular endeavors.
That makes it much easier not to receive any income from the church.

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

doyle

Heart

Acts-celerate Owner Posts: 6957 **9/29/11 10:25 am**

What I see in Clint's post is his heart. It's thank kind of "heart" that has moved the Lord's work forward over the centuries.

Almost all the strong churches now in the COG and other denominations too, those who now pay good salaries and benefits for pastors, were started and moved forward by pastors who worked secular jobs to help keep the church afloat financially.

I grew up with ministers who framed houses, dug ditches, laid carpet and almost any other construction job they could find to earn a living. When dad was pastoring a church near Exeter, California, he got a contract to do the sheet-rock work on 35 new houses.

I was 16 and dad and I sheet-rocked every one of those houses so our family would have support. Dad had a heart for ministry that included being willing to do secular work to move the church along.

From his example, I view those who work secular jobs and then care for the local church with little pay from that source, as heroes.

Many reading this thread have done exactly that and many still are. They have the same heart that Clint does. They want to see the Lord's work progress even if they have to work jobs outside the church to keep it going.

The first five state overseers of the Church of God in Georgia, received almost no monetary benefit from their work. There were few churches and few people in the ones they did have. Society then was nearly 100 percent agricultural so those overseers often farmed, plowed, raised pigs, raised chickens and anything else they could do to keep the work going.

I actually think Clint's post is one of the better ones on Accelerate because it shows his heart from ministry and for his church. I also think a lot of our viewers who pastor churches with nice salaries, would take a cutback and would work secular jobs to help supplement their church if it comes to that.

Should the pastor be the last one to be paid? I'm not in complete agreement with Clint on that. The local church should view supplying the needs of their pastor as one of their obligations too.

Clint also stated that he is doing well financially in secular endeavors.
That makes it much easier not to receive any income from the church.

Doyle
_________________
The largest room in the world is the room for improvement.

Kevin Walker

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2158 **9/29/11 10:29 am**

This.

diakoneo

Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere Posts: 3382 **9/29/11 12:51 pm**

Sorry skinnybishop, I have to disagree with you on that. I think the post was on the mark. There are many more important things than the pastor's salary. What is the church here for, after all? Aren't we ALL servants of Christ? Ministers of the Gospel of God?

I do believe the pastor's salary is important, but I believe that servanthood starts at the pastor and if the pastor is not willing to be a servant regardless, then he needs to move on and find some other endeavour.

Randy Johnson

It's a two way road

Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5433 **9/29/11 1:59 pm**

A church should be taught from its inception to support its pastor, and support should be given according to what the church has, not what it doesn't have.

At the same time, the pastor, should be willing to lay down his life for the sheep. He should be willing to make financial sacrifices for the kingdom of God, but not just him, he should serve as an example for those who he teaches to follow.

If that means working outside the church, he should work. If it means taking one of the church bills and paying it out of his check from the church and/or his secular job, he should do it. However, he should not be the only one doing it.

If he is going to sacrifice his income to pay all or part of the bill, then the people in the congregation should do the same thing, even if it is only five or ten dollars toward the total amount.

1 In the second year of King Darius, on the first day of the sixth month, the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest:

2 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “These people say, ‘The time has not yet come for the LORD’s house to be built.’”

3 Then the word of the LORD came through the prophet Haggai: 4 “Is it a time for you yourselves to be living in your paneled houses, while this house remains a ruin?”

5 Now this is what the LORD Almighty says: “Give careful thought to your ways. 6 You have planted much, but have harvested little. You eat, but never have enough. You drink, but never have your fill. You put on clothes, but are not warm. You earn wages, only to put them in a purse with holes in it.”

7 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Give careful thought to your ways. 8 Go up into the mountains and bring down timber and build the house, so that I may take pleasure in it and be honored,” says the LORD. 9 “You expected much, but see, it turned out to be little. What you brought home, I blew away. Why?” declares the LORD Almighty. “Because of my house, which remains a ruin, while each of you is busy with his own house. 10 Therefore, because of you the heavens have withheld their dew and the earth its crops. 11 I called for a drought on the fields and the mountains, on the grain, the new wine, the oil and whatever the ground produces, on men and cattle, and on the labor of your hands.”

12 Then Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the whole remnant of the people obeyed the voice of the LORD their God and the message of the prophet Haggai, because the LORD their God had sent him. And the people feared the LORD.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Cojak

Re: Worst post ever?

01000001 01100011 01110100 01110011 Posts: 24275 **9/29/11 2:52 pm**

roughridercog

I condemn no one for their decisions

Acts Mod Posts: 25306 **9/29/11 3:01 pm**

I only know that I made my own. The economic crisis has hit my church hard. But I made sure my youth pastor was paid before I was. As a matter of fact, I can't remember the last time I took a check from the church. I make sure my yard guy is covered.
Do I hope to begin to draw something from the church eventually? Yes, I do. But right now things are just too tight.

If you fault me for my decision, go ahead and fault me.

But I can't see my church payment not being made while I take a salary.

It's my own decision. Other pastors have to made their own decisions.

I have peace with God over mine.
_________________
Doctor of Bovinamodulation

Mark Ledbetter

At the Heart

Golf Cart Mafia Associate Posts: 2109 **9/29/11 3:19 pm**

of the matter is a fundamental flaw in the development of the Church and leadership. Church for decades follow a secular pattern rather than Biblical. What I have experienced when I served as a pastor (started mid 70s) has been symptomatic of the problem.
_________________
God-Honoring
Christ-Centered
Bible-Based
Spirit-Led
(This is how I want to be)

Link

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/29/11 6:43 pm**

What I think we need to do is consider this issue in light of what the Bible teaches about a church's financial priorities.

I was thinking about the part of the opening post about not having a church to pastor if the church got foreclosed on. Is the church the building that gets foreclosed on, or the people that meet in the building?

The Bible never says anything about paying for the facility we meet in, so should finding a facility that costs us a lot be a high priority? The borrower is servant to the lender, so is it a good idea for a church, especially a small one, to have a mortgage out on a church building? The Bible does mention elders who rule well being worthy of double honor, so shouldn't this take precedence over paying for church buildings?

Churches that are really small can meet in homes. I've seen churches that were small enough to meet in a house who rented a building that 'looked like a church' when it didn't make sense economically. We don't even have any Biblical precedent for meeting in a 'church building' though we do for meeting in homes.

Here are some financial priorities I see in the New Testament based on the amount of attention they receive:

1. Supplying for those who evangelize (e.g. apostles who travel from place to place).
2. Providing for the poor, including widows in the local church.
3. Providing for the poor in the churches in Judea and other locations.
4. Honoring elders and sharing with teachers.

Two and 3 could be above 1. I don't see a lot of emphasis on supporting local church elders, though it is mentioned and is important. Building programs for physical structures, mortgages, etc. are not even on the list. The apostles and the early Christians seemed to think structures that were already in use for other purposes (and already paid for or being paid for) were good enough, like the temple or houses of the saints.
_________________
Link

sonofasoldier

Acts-celerater Posts: 589 **9/29/11 6:48 pm**

I would think that a pastor is more crucial to a church than a building. You can have a church without a building but can you have a church without a pastor? Sheep without a shepherd is not a good thing.

What other vocations should someone be expected to do without compensation?

bigchurchmouse

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Posts: 2857 **9/30/11 6:56 am**

Kudos to roughrider. If attitude equals altitude then I believe RR will rise high. I am certainly not saying that a pastor should not get paid. He should. Jesus said that in Kingdom work the first shall be last and the last shall be first. A person who makes sure everyone else is properly taken care can be sure that God will meet his needs. That may be through a secular job or another way that God uses to compensate him for his efforts for the Kingdom. I also like the fact that he said that others can do things differently but he has peace with the path he has chosen. What a refreshing attitute.

Dean Steenburgh

Re: At the Heart

Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia Posts: 4682 **10/1/11 12:58 pm**