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 Re: Taxes |
Quiet Wyatt |
| HighFive wrote: | | In Ohio (as well as other states) any religious property used as offices, etc and not for worship is subject to taxes. The Northern Ohio COG office dealt with that issue. |
Sounds like they need some good legal representation. If these offices are integral to the functioning of the church then they are a part of the church and they should not be subject to taxation. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
9/25/11 7:45 pm
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| Tom Sterbens... |
FloridaForever |
Tom, regarding my statement:
| Quote: | Indeed, behavior IS a choice. But orientation is almost certainly not a choice.
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In a nutshell, just as you and I did not "choose" to be straight, but rather "discovered" our orientation at some point, brought on, no doubt, by some blend of genetic disposition, modeling the behavior and gender roles we saw growing up, etc., so, too, I am utterly convinced, virtually no homosexual "chooses" to be the way they are, but have been led to it by a conglomeration of (perhaps) genetic dispositions and almost certainly environmental factors that might include the gender roles they modeled, and even sexual abuse.
That being said, when I was 17 and in the full blood of heterosexual curiosity, I was STILL obligated by my Christianity to maintain my virginity, and so forth. That is, I could not help my orientation, but I was still expected to remain celibate until marriage.
Does that explain what I meant?
P.S. I am not saying that anyone is "born" that way. But at the same time, I do believe the a person's genetics can "predispose" them more to one way or the other. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/25/11 8:27 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
| parousia wrote: | Did any of you fellows see this response? It's from "JUST THE FACTS".
| Quote: | | Church of God is one of the more radical religious groups out there. They love sucking in money from people and getting into politics. I find it interesting that this church found it appropriate to spend the money on 9 billboards, instead of just one to counter the other church group. I wonder how much their followers approve of their donations being used this way? Of course, we could also look at them owning the old Trinova Headquarters in Monclova as their new church. May I add that its value is now $5.9 MILLION. Pretty good chunk of change. They spent $7 MILLION to buy the property. Also according to Areis Online, they haven't paid almost $400K in property taxes. So I would look at these people and first ask, why are they screwing the rest of the local economy by not paying their taxes and how are they getting so much cash to blow on things that don't help the poor, sick, or needy. You know...things Christ would do. This is another pastor who will probably continue to pad his pockets and live the high life and on judgement day get a rude awakening for being nothing but materialistic and get the spend eternity in purgatory or worse. |
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We should realize that whoever posted this is someone commenting anonymously on a newspaper article. Could be anyone and info could be true or false (sounds like it is false since y'all are saying they don't have to pay taxes on church properties in Ohio.) I don't put a whole lot of credence in what people say when they won't even sign their name to it.
_________________
"More of Him...less of me."
http://twitter.com/camiracle77
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5910
9/25/11 9:50 pm
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| Right on Carolyn |
Purplebarney |
| Its a comment for the local newspaper so probable someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. I highly doubt that a church that is well established like this one doesn't know the proper tax codes / regulations and I'm sure they have legal counsel in regards to this issue. I'm guessing its someone talking out of the wrong part of their body. (thats the nicest way to say what i really wanna say! ha!) |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 704
9/25/11 10:19 pm
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| Re: Tom Sterbens... |
Jason Moore |
| FloridaForever wrote: | Tom, regarding my statement:
| Quote: | Indeed, behavior IS a choice. But orientation is almost certainly not a choice.
|
In a nutshell, just as you and I did not "choose" to be straight, but rather "discovered" our orientation at some point, brought on, no doubt, by some blend of genetic disposition, modeling the behavior and gender roles we saw growing up, etc., so, too, I am utterly convinced, virtually no homosexual "chooses" to be the way they are, but have been led to it by a conglomeration of (perhaps) genetic dispositions and almost certainly environmental factors that might include the gender roles they modeled, and even sexual abuse.
That being said, when I was 17 and in the full blood of heterosexual curiosity, I was STILL obligated by my Christianity to maintain my virginity, and so forth. That is, I could not help my orientation, but I was still expected to remain celibate until marriage.
Does that explain what I meant?
P.S. I am not saying that anyone is "born" that way. But at the same time, I do believe the a person's genetics can "predispose" them more to one way or the other. |
Would it be so strange if some people were born with same-sex orientation? We see children born with obvious physical birth defects. What if--as a result of the fall--that part of our brain that determines gender and attraction could be dysfunctional just as someone born with a defective heart or limbs?
One poster earlier said, "I don't believe you can be born gay." Well, that's just what it is--a belief. You really have no evidence at all. Admittedly, it makes us feel good when you can just say, "I don't believe that" and be done with the issue. I'm not sure that the church can afford to take this approach anymore.
If you haven't noticed, we're losing this war in our culture. It's not because we're wrong though. It's because we're not communicating our message well.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 721
9/26/11 12:40 pm
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| Jason... |
FloridaForever |
While I don't believe all gays are "born gay," it would not surprise me in the least if some are.
The church is often afraid that if we acknowledge that, we have to then say, "Well, I guess homosexual behavior is OK." Of course, that doesn't make sense.
I was born a raging heterosexual...and yet I was called to behave myself, etc.
So, too, will those who are "born gay." They STILL have to maintain celibacy, etc. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/26/11 2:18 pm
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Jason Moore |
i think you're right on Florida. There are a lot of different possibilities, and we are fairly young when it comes to the science on this. It may be that it happens pre-natally or it might happen as the result of an early childhood experience--neither of these two are things anyone could choose.
Further, homosexual behavior could be the result of perverted sexual desires that come about as an adult. Whichever the case, the church needs to do a better job of addressing this issue.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 721
9/26/11 2:30 pm
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p5harri |
So yes or no, are we still ok telling people that homosexuality is a sin.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1705
9/26/11 2:50 pm
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Jason Moore |
| p5harri wrote: | | So yes or no, are we still ok telling people that homosexuality is a sin. |
Whether we are ok with it or not, homosexual behavior is unacceptable according to the Bible and church history/tradition.
The thing is that we need to differentiate between behavior and orientation. There are a lot of Christians who have a homosexual orientation but have chosen to live celibate lives in order to live in obedience to God's Word. Like Florida said earlier, we are all called to lay our sexuality (along with the rest of our lives) at the cross.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 721
9/26/11 4:10 pm
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Eddie Robbins |
| John Stevenson wrote: | Sorry, but I do not like Osteen. Any preacher who gets on Larry King (June 20, 2005) and says he doesn't call gay marriages a sin is WRONG! In fact he went on in the interview to say that he doesn't use the word sin. He also denied that Jesus is the only way to heaven in the same interview.
I use to like him until I saw to many interviews and really listened to what he said.
Tony Scott on the other hand is a great guy. He is not condemning people just stating what the Word of God says. People tend to confuse conviction for condemnation. |
Just for fun....give me a scripture calling gay marriage a sin. Let's assume 2 guys marry and never have any intimate contact. Is it a sin? |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16509
9/26/11 7:03 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
One very big problem in this debate is the Bible doesn't recognize the modern invention of 'sexual orientation' as such.
What the Bible condemns as sin is homosexual activity. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
9/26/11 7:12 pm
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Jason Moore |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | One very big problem in this debate is the Bible doesn't recognize the modern invention of 'sexual orientation' as such.
What the Bible condemns as sin is homosexual activity. |
I would argue that the Bible does recognize our inclination to sin without condoning the act of sinning.
_________________
Christian love, either towards God or towards man, is an affair of the will.
-C.S. Lewis
The only good race pace is suicide pace--and today looks like a good day to die.
-Steve Prefontaine |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 721
9/26/11 9:06 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Though the regenerate Christian was formerly wicked, his identity is no longer found in depravity. He is now begotten of God, a saint.
The 'sexual orientation' idea says that people are gay, that that is their immutable identity. This same 'orientation' concept is fundamental to the 'pro-gay Christian' movement.
I also think the issue of spiritual influence (i.e., evil spirits vs. Holy Spirit) has to be factored into the equation as well. As I'm sure you know, Paul speaks of the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience in sharp contradistinction to the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
9/26/11 9:48 pm
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Carolyn Smith |
I am FB friends with a man who is openly gay and in the last few years has become (as his sister puts it) The Angry Gay Man. Many of his posts are about political things & how unfair the right wing idiots are, etc. I felt compelled to disagree with him once and was immediately & visciously attacked by his friends. (One told me I should go kill myself.) Point being, he firmly believes that "God made me this way, so it's OK." It is part of the basis of his beliefs. He believes he is a Christian, even though (homosexuality aside) his lifestyle is one of indulgence of this flesh and openly bragging about it.
So this is a very important point in the homosexual community. He also told me that "loving the sinner and hating the sin" is still hating the sinner.
I agree that we don't handle this issue well, because we don't know how.
_________________
"More of Him...less of me."
http://twitter.com/camiracle77
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=691241499&ref=name |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5910
9/26/11 10:03 pm
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| Wyatt |
FloridaForever |
| Can you explain the sexual orientation thing? Are you saying a person can have a homosexual orientation without being gay (i.e., gay is a behavior, not an orientation)? I can agree with that. But at the same time, I don't disagree either with calling that person gay (but celibate), if they are a Christian. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 7:02 am
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Troy Hamby |
| p5harri wrote: | | So yes or no, are we still ok telling people that homosexuality is a sin. |
I would say that scripture supports it being a sin but I wonder why we don't see billboards decrying gossip, lying, greed, etc? I think it's great to get involved in the cultural debate, but doesn't stuff like this reinforce the perception that we're homophobic and bigoted? Is anyone going to come to the startling realization that homosexuality is a sin because of these signs or will it just make a bunch of christians say 'amen' and 'good for them'? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2460
9/27/11 7:54 am
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Daniel Rushing |
This is the kind of conversation the church needs to have. We spend a week at GA doing business and electing people- and we haven't really dealt with doctrine and culture in decades! But these are the kinds of questions that pastors and churches deal with. It's not as black and white as we want to make it out to be. The easy way is not always the right way.
Here is my question. Let's just say, hypothetically, that science proves 100% without any doubt that some people are born with no sexual attraction to the opposite sex, and full sexual attraction to the same sex. How does that change the way we interpret scripture? What would become the practical implications? |
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
9/27/11 8:38 am
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| Daniel...agreed! |
FloridaForever |
The General Assembly was originally conceived as a gathering to discuss doctrine. But it usually is only indirectly related to doctrine, at best. It's often political positions dressed up in doctrinal clothes or argued with scripture (kind of like someone arguing capitalism from scripture, or socialism--it's really about the politics, not the scriptures).
I am convinced that very few, if any, homosexuals are ever "cured." The reason is because I am equally convinced that their orientation is a much a part of them as my heterosexual orientation is part of me. As a young man, thinking that I must surely be the worst of sinners for having any desire for women, I prayed 10,000 prayers for God to take away my desires. He never did. Not even for 30 seconds.
When I have heard testimonies of gays who speak of having prayed and pleaded with God to remove the longings within them, I remember how I felt.
So, for ME, not a single thing changes whether a gay is born that way or becomes that way through no fault of his own. EITHER WAY, we know that they cannot help how they feel about matters. And EITHER WAY they are called to live according to God's standards.
If they can marry someone of the opposite sex and be faithful and happy, I don't have a problem with that (though I suppose full disclosure might be called for). Otherwise, they are called to celibacy. Just like a priest or single person would be.
I do wish we'd discuss such things at the denomination level. We MIGHT be able to impact the homosexual community by showing them a "way back." I am convinced that many gays love the Lord. But, having been told that they are going to hell, etc., may have given up hope and just embraced the lifestyle, behavior and all. If they could see that the Church of God understood that their feelings were not of their own doing, but that they were still called to holiness, that perhaps God would use their sublimated feelings to his greater glory, they might find a way back. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
9/27/11 9:15 am
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p5harri |
Wouldn't change my mind in the least. Same as if science proved evolution was true and factual.
I'd still believe the creation exactly like I always have.
No implication for me. Orientation is a choice.
Does that make me stubborn? Yes
Does that make me narrow and closed minded? Yes
Do I really care what others believe or thing? Not so much.
Patrick.
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart. |
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1705
9/27/11 10:35 am
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| Sexual orientation |
C. Chris Moody |
God does not make anyone a homosexual. It is a choice. Biblical order is clear. Cows cannot produce calves without a bull. God's law cannot be changed.
I will agree that a persons surroundings greatly effect one's preferences for anything. However, to say one believes he is born this way is absolutely contrary to scriptures. God would not and cannot contradict His word.
Show me anywhere in scripture to support the idea of us being born with a homosexual orientation. There are instances in scriptures where people were born with physical handicaps, but I have never seen this idea of "God made me this way," to be supported with scripture. |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
9/27/11 10:55 am
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