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 Has anything changed since 2008 |
C. Chris Moody |
Tom,
I want to know if it has been possible since leadership changed in 2008 to obtain these financial reports. Have the leaders who told you... We know what you want and we will deliver... Have they delivered? Are things different today
Last edited by C. Chris Moody on 8/11/11 8:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
8/11/11 5:50 pm
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C. Chris Moody |
Tom,
Cool your jets there good brother!!! I have never said we are elite, that would be someone else. I have never said we are above those who are not tongue talking spirit baptized. That my friend is your words.
You see this is exactly what I and others have difficulty discussing anything on this forum. I get labeled an elitist by supporting practical commitments and declaration of faith. All I have said is we continually move closer to the world than God. How close do we want to be to either? I believe that was way off the cuff and an uncalled for low blow.
Do you hear me backing down on this charge? In fact, I spoke to someone today who stated emphatically that we can go and view these reports. I really don't care to see them, but believe whole heartedly the reports should
be available.
I believe everyone should be able to express themselves without being
labeled. All I did was state I may be old fashioned and lord chancellor has
rode me like a rodeo in Texas.
I still contend this is a slippery slope. It's deeper than headquarters. It's in
our local churches. Does headquarters need to line up....ABSOLUTELY!!!!
Does the local church need to line up...ABSOLUTELY!!!! |
Belt Jerker
Posts: 511
8/11/11 8:53 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| C. Chris Moody wrote: | | In fact, I spoke to someone today who stated emphatically that we can go and view these reports. |
Who said that? |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
8/11/11 8:59 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
Tom,
What is your angle? Why do you want this information so bad? It seems to me that you can get it if you would just sign a paper saying you won't put it on Actscelerate! |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/11/11 10:04 pm
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| Kyle Morrow wrote: | Tom,
What is your angle? Why do you want this information so bad? It seems to me that you can get it if you would just sign a paper saying you won't put it on Actscelerate! |
I think Tom has made it clear as to why he wants the information. It is called accountability. And because our minutes mandate that it be made available. It shouldn't matter if it is put on Actscelerate. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
8/11/11 10:14 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
| If Tom wants the information, it is available to him. All he has to do is sign a disclosure agreement. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/11/11 10:23 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
If they would contact the Department of Business and Records and follow the appropriate steps, I'm sure it would be.
Do you personally know of any minister or member who has tried to get the information and been denied? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/11/11 10:30 pm
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Matt Boyd |
| Kyle Morrow wrote: | If they would contact the Department of Business and Records and follow the appropriate steps, I'm sure it would be.
Do you personally know of any minister or member who has tried to get the information and been denied? |
I also asked for it and was denied. But I have not asked lately.  |
Friendly Face
Posts: 296
8/11/11 10:48 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
| Lord Chancellor wrote: | | Kyle Morrow wrote: | If they would contact the Department of Business and Records and follow the appropriate steps, I'm sure it would be.
Do you personally know of any minister or member who has tried to get the information and been denied? |
Tom, Travis Johnson, and Jerry Lawson are at least 3...according to information provided on this board. I believe Bro. Bob may have said that he requested the information some time back. Don't hold me to that, though. |
Why was Tom allowed access to the information and they weren't? Does the Executive Committee trust Tom more? Something isn't adding up here. If I remember correctly Travis was going to be given the information as well if he signed the disclosure agreement. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/11/11 11:04 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
I have a personal friend who is a CoG pastor who asked for and received the info. He had to sign the agreement that he would not share it with anyone else though.
Unfortunately, that's just how the CoG has been run for many years, no matter what the GA passes. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
8/11/11 11:14 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
| (I believe the time has come for that kind of leadership to cease). |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
8/11/11 11:20 pm
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| Re: Kyle... |
Kyle Morrow |
| Tom Sterbens wrote: | I have said and written over and over through the years that what I am after is the restoration of trust and relationship. Honoring our words is absolutely critical to that reality.
Anytime things such as this are brought to public attention there will be those who attack the person and refuse to deal with the reality. Feel free to attack it doesn't change the reality of the issue before us. |
Where did I attack? The truth is you can receive the information if you want it. You just have to sign an agreement. If you want the information, why don't you sign it. Quiet Wyatt has a friend who signed it and received the information. You can too. I'm not attacking you at all. I'm just trying to see what the problem is.
I agree that our leadership needs accountability and has accountability. We as the General Council and General Assembly need accountability as well. And I understand the need for a confidentiality agreement. The Florida situation comes to mind when Bishop Stephens released information to the Florida ministers while asking them to keep the information confidential. Of course, the information was on this site less than 24 hours later along with accusations of what the previous administration did with the funds. So, sign the agreement, don't put the info on Acts, and you'll have it! |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/11/11 11:35 pm
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Kyle Morrow |
delete
Last edited by Kyle Morrow on 8/12/11 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/12/11 12:04 am
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Kyle Morrow |
| How much more information would you like to have? How detailed would you like your report to be? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/12/11 12:15 am
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| What are the consequences for .... |
Shane B. Stone |
What are the consequences for breaking the disclosure agreement?
I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't get a job in Cleveland anytime in the near future. And there would be a few COG pastors/ministers upset that someone "broke their word." I had an overseer in 2002 that broke his word to me. Is there a difference, or is it because we are on the opposite side of the fence.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but if it is a true legal nondisclosure agreement, if it was published by someone there would have to be legal consequences IMO. But is that the Biblical form of discipline?
I've confused myself now. I'll get it Tom, and sell copies of it for $100 bucks each to everyone and it can support my next church plant (since there isn't a church planting/home missions budget anymore.)  
_________________
www.rpfield.com
www.twitter.com/shanestone |
Acts-celerater
Posts: 913
8/12/11 12:22 am
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Kyle Morrow |
| You know I have political aspirations? Enlighten me, please, what are they? Should I join the tea party? |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2397
8/12/11 12:34 am
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| My thoughts... |
FloridaForever |
If is is supposed to be "furnished" to us, and there are no preconditions listed in the Minutes, then there should be no preconditions.
If it is supposed to be a full accounting, then we should not be receiving a summary. The Council of 18 is not smarter than Church of God members--they were just fortunate to be high profile leaders who got elected. Yes, we can understand those numbers as well as--perhaps far better--than members of leadership.
The whole non-disclosure thing arises, I'm sure, from good intentions. But it results in a form of control and manipulation. I am given information, but am not permitted to discuss it with anyone. Same thing happened to me. I was given the General Overseer's salary...but was not permitted to make it public. It actually would have been in the Church of God's favor for it to have been made public--it was an almost embarrassingly modest salary for such a job--but what could I do?
No hoops, no barriers, no ladders, no closed doors. Just be transparent. "Here's the numbers. Please use discretion. God bless you."
There will be criticism. But that storm will pass. I understand why you are hesitant to release the numbers. It's not really about us not understanding...but about us understanding all too well. And because some will use that to batter and do damage. That's a shame on those sort of people. But let's just get it out of the way.
Don't treat us like we are too ignorant to know how to look at the numbers. The Church of God has many saavy investors who read corporations earnings reports, etc. We can figure it out.
Maybe the best time to release it is under a "lame duck" administration. If Bro. Culpepper did it, he doesn't have to worry about being reelected. Then, four years from now, after any storm has blown over, he gets reelected as "the General Overseer who opened the books."
Just my thoughts. |
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
Posts: 2295
8/12/11 7:06 am
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| Do local churches |
Randy Johnson |
give detailed monthly and annual reports of income and expenditures?
Why wouldn't they? Probably because they know by instinct or experience that some loggerhead would use the information to stir up trouble and dissension in the local church, even if there were nothing dishonest or out of place on the reports.
Why couldn't the same logic be in play here when it comes to national and international reports? If you give people too much information, especially info that they are not trained to read and understand (like the nuances of certain types of financial reports), some people just see the "big numbers" (especially the ones that exceed their personal annual income) and get upset.
Perhaps the potential trouble isn't worth the pain? Especially if the trouble results from ignorant misunderstanding of the reports? Just an idea.
_________________
Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
8/12/11 7:21 am
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Nature Boy Florida |
Let's just face the facts.
An "all disbursements" would show the salaries of every worker at the General Headquarters - and they don't want you to see what the managers are making.
It isn't the Top 5 salaries they are worried about you seeing. They are our leaders - most would not begrudge them a top salary.
It isn't the minimum wage workers they are worried about you seeing.
It's the manager's salaries that have been working there a long time - that they would be embarassed about you seeing.
I was a state employee for 10 years - and the local newspaper - through freedom of information in Florida (Sunshine Law) published my salary every year. They published all professional and managerial salaries. It sometimes caused a stir.
They are willing to go against the published minutes to keep you from seeing it - so there is a POWERFUL urge for you not to see it. I wonder why? Hmmmmm.
This is the real problem.
You know it. I know it. God knows it.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today! |
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16619
8/12/11 7:45 am
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Tracy S Hamilton |
| Kyle Morrow wrote: | | If Tom wants the information, it is available to him. All he has to do is sign a disclosure agreement. |
Why would you sign or have to sign a disclosure statement (agreement) when the General Assembly said it should be made available to the General Assembly?
There is nothing in the minutes about anyone having to sign a disclosure statement if the records are made available to us.
Why not go public with the statements? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo
Posts: 2716
8/12/11 8:31 am
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