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Executive Council Takes Step on Financial Disclosure
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Post Eddie Robbins
Quote:
That the Executive Council be authorized to expand the office
space of the International Offices on the current site


The "current site" was the existing building. That wasn't talking about the new buildings out front. Silly you. You didn't read it very well.
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8/11/11 5:09 am


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Post Tom C. Chris Moody
Can you or have you been able to get those documents? Have you seen any of these? I have never asked. I believe they should be made available, but I have never desired to view them.

I trust our leadership. We have council of eighteen, and executive committee. These folks should express and represent various perspectives. It's my understanding this subject has come up before and I thought there was a measure passed from council stating this information be made available.

There would have to be some guidelines. For example, I believe we should be pastors. I believe the pastor should be in good standing...current on church and personal reports. BTW caught up my personal reports yesterday.

I really believe this is disheartening to a large number of our ministers. I agree with Tom, in that the GA passed this so what is the problem. I want to state I HAVE NO ISSUE WITH OUR LEADERS. I have resolved them through prayer and biblical approaches to doing repentance. However, our leaders could and should produce what the GA implemented.

I would also recommend to every pastor who desires this information. We must make sure our local house is in order. I don't think we should mandate and demand things, when we are nit trustworthy either. A disclaimer here, that was ot intended or targeted at anyone, but if the shoe fits then wear it.

I guess what I am saying is the local church pastor has trust issues as well. Some pastors lie about the tithe of tithe. Some pastors do not pay tithes personally. Some pastors do not report at all. Some are sporadic. These issues are in the general, state, and local church. There is only one way to implement change.....REPENT AND RETURN TO GOD. I have said it once and will say it again I am extremely weary of church politics. Our leaders cannot lead properly because of fear. That fear is represented in the form of a vote. I live in Cleveland and stand amazed at the continuos character defamation which goes on amongst the brethren. What happened to Godly men repenting. How can we expect God to bless our church when this spirit of entitlement, and political backstabbing is so prevalent? We need a move of God. Not a series of meetings, a real move of God. IMHO this must start at the top.
Belt Jerker
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8/11/11 7:55 am


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Post This is WRONG.... FloridaForever
Quote:
...available to any ordained bishop in good standing with the Church of God...


We are ALL part of the Church of God. Why in the world would a 60-year member not be able to access a report that a 20-year member (but ordained bishop) can access?

Why shouldn't someone who pays $20,000/year into the church be able to access reports that an ordained bishop who may pay $7000/year into the church can?

It is wrong. It is elitism. It is an attempt to control information.

I UNDERSTAND why our leaders do not want to release information. They know good and well that some will use it to do damage. But if the information is going to be released, release it to any Church of God member in good standing. Period.

Moreover, we shouldn't have to go through hoops to access it. Put it out there. Let us download it if we want to...or not if we don't.
Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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8/11/11 10:42 am


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Post Hoop building famousflavius
The first class that you take in COG political science class is, hoop building. Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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8/11/11 10:51 am


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Post Cojak
I see FF's point. We have constantly paid into the organization over a period of 57 years. Even when I was not living right, and out of harmony with God, our tithes were mailed back to our home church no matter where in the world we were (still are).

I feel I have as much right as anyone to know how the money has been spent.

I will harp until dooms day I guess, I cannot believe our HQ Bldgs aren't paid off.

I was a better money manager at 17yrs of age than some of the leaders have been, evidently. Crying or Very sad
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8/11/11 10:52 am


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Post florida Forever C. Chris Moody
It needs to channel through the pastor. If a member in the church wants this he can ask his pastor. The pastor will know if the member is in good standing. That is the reason I am for that course of action.Everyone should not be privy to this information. The only way that would be possible is for the pastor to represent the member. Belt Jerker
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8/11/11 1:17 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
The Salvation Army, the United Way (as well as many, many other nonprofits) post their audited financial reports on their websites.

I have never understood the rationale behind nondisclosure of the financial report of a denomination or nonprofit org. It only raises suspicion.
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8/11/11 1:31 pm


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Post Pastor Moody... FloridaForever
With respect, my brother, that is "one more hoop" that the faithful church member must go through. If he is on the outs with his pastor, or if his pastor feels that it would be impolitic to ask for the information from headquarters, it can become difficult. It's difficult enough just to ask headquarters. I know. I've done it.

I would also question WHY this info should remain privy? Congress, Fortune 500 companies, and thousands of other organizations publish their financial information.

I do understand that our leaders WILL be slammed for anything less than perfection. Shame on Church of God members who make it so damaging for our leaders to do the right thing! But at the same time, IF we are going to release the information, we might as well just put it on the website for anyone to look at. If someone is wanting to do damage to the Church of God, that person can simply go through all the necessary channels, then release the info to the press, etc.

If I were in Church of God leadership, I would begin a campaign of lowered expectations before releasing the information. Preempt the bad guys that will use the financial report to try to damage others. This is almost certainly going to happen, but by taking the wind out of their sails up front, admitting that there have been some less than great decisions (if that is the case), it might make for smoother seas later.

Also, once the report is released, it will eventually become a NON-EVENT, about as exciting and troubling as reporting Sunday School attendance.

But, again, there should be no barriers to this information for Church of God members. Every barrier screams "SECRET!" or "SPECIAL!"--and that is pretty much what we DON'T want to happen, I would think.

God bless.
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8/11/11 1:36 pm


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Post Florida Forever C. Chris Moody
You have your opinion and I have mine. Belt Jerker
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8/11/11 2:04 pm


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Post Run for Congress wannabebishop
It's amazing how much Cleveland and Congress have in common. Just a thought... Friendly Face
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8/11/11 2:08 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Just doing a quick search, I found the following examples of other denominations which make their financials available to anyone over the internet, no less:

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America:
http://www.elca.org/Who-We-Are/Our-Three-Expressions/Churchwide-Organization/Office-of-the-Treasurer/Financial-Reports/Prior-Years-Financial-Reports.aspx

The Salvation Army:
http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-search/3F80BF21D8F61B7F8525743D0064057B?opendocument

Even a summary financial report would be appreciated. Take a look at what the Foursquare Gospel denomination makes available on their website:

http://www.foursquare.org/images/assets/cabinet_2011_Financial_Report.pdf
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8/11/11 2:31 pm


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Post Pastor Moody... FloridaForever
I understand we differ in our approach to this. But consider this: Why in the world should a regular member have to jump through TWO hoops while ordained bishops jump through one?

It should be EQUAL ACCESS. Anything else smacks of elitism, in my opinion.
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8/11/11 2:34 pm


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Post Re: florida Forever Nature Boy Florida
Lord Chancellor wrote:

Thanks for stating on the record that you are in favor of subverting the authority of the highest governing body of the Church of God, the International General Assembly.


Totally ridiculous, as usual.

And you had the audacity to accuse me of twisting your words yesterday. (Which I proved I did not).

But you are now crowned the King of twisting based on this post.

This is pathetic. Chris said nothing of the sort. He stated his opinion - which had nothing to do with what the Assembly had stated in times past or times future. Just how he would do it. Accusing a pastor of "subverting" based on his opinion - redefines what "over the top" means. Way over the top. You are losing it man - get a grip.
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8/11/11 3:53 pm


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Post Would it matter??? Rick Mack
I hate to sound jaded, but if they will not do what is prescribed by the General Assembly, what difference would it make if we saw a detailed financial statement?

Would things suddenly change then?
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8/11/11 5:44 pm


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Post Re: florida Forever MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:

Thanks for stating on the record that you are in favor of subverting the authority of the highest governing body of the Church of God, the International General Assembly.


Totally ridiculous, as usual.

And you had the audacity to accuse me of twisting your words yesterday. (Which I proved I did not).

But you are now crowned the King of twisting based on this post.

This is pathetic. Chris said nothing of the sort. He stated his opinion - which had nothing to do with what the Assembly had stated in times past or times future. Just how he would do it. Accusing a pastor of "subverting" based on his opinion - redefines what "over the top" means. Way over the top. You are losing it man - get a grip.


The General Assembly has mandated that the information be furnished to the "International General Assembly." Perhaps, you don't know who the International General Assembly is, so I'll spell it out for you:

From the Minutes of the International General Assembly
Quote:
ARTICLE VI
Governing Bodies
1. INTERNATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Members

The International General Assembly is composed of all members and ministers of the Church of God 16 years of age and above.


So, here we see that the International General Assembly is composed of ALL members and ministers of the Church of God ages 16 and up.

Now, to another section of the Minutes that you are not familiar with:
Quote:
S9. SECRETARY GENERAL
II. Duties and Authorities

The Secretary General shall
4. Have an audit of financial records and furnish the International General Assembly a statement of all receipts and disbursements, assets and liabilities, such statements to be prepared by a certified public accountant annually.


It's clear. It's explicit.

The Secretary General shall provide the detailed financial report to "the International General Assembly" which is ALL members and ministers of the Church of God age 16 and up.

Chris Moody has stated publicly, here on this forum and in this very thread, that he is in favor of the Secretary General releasing this information ONLY to the Ordained Bishops (or the General Council) of the Church of God, despite the FACT that the General Assembly has REQUIRED it to be released to all members of the Church of God age 16 and up.

Chris Moody then qualified his comment to say that the Ordained Bishop who receives a copy (if one ever does) should then be the one to decide if the member gets to see it or gets a copy. The Minutes REQUIRE the Secretary General to release the information to the Church of God members.

Suggesting that we should ignore what the Minutes say and do it however one in charge wants to do it (by saying, for example, that one is in favor of a course of action in violation of the General Assembly) is to ignore the authority of the General Assembly.

The General Assembly has required that the information be furnished to all the members of the Church of God. Chris Moody has stated that he is in favor of the Secretary General releasing the information to only the Ordained Bishops- or releasing the information in a manner that ignores the authority and mandate of the General Assembly.

Sorry. No twisting of words, here. It is what it is.


It's kind of interesting to see how some use the authority of the GA in issues then deem important. But then criticize it in issues they don't. Kind of like a buffet. You choose and pick what you want.
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8/11/11 5:47 pm


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Post Re: florida Forever MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
MARK317 wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Lord Chancellor wrote:

Thanks for stating on the record that you are in favor of subverting the authority of the highest governing body of the Church of God, the International General Assembly.


Totally ridiculous, as usual.

And you had the audacity to accuse me of twisting your words yesterday. (Which I proved I did not).

But you are now crowned the King of twisting based on this post.

This is pathetic. Chris said nothing of the sort. He stated his opinion - which had nothing to do with what the Assembly had stated in times past or times future. Just how he would do it. Accusing a pastor of "subverting" based on his opinion - redefines what "over the top" means. Way over the top. You are losing it man - get a grip.


The General Assembly has mandated that the information be furnished to the "International General Assembly." Perhaps, you don't know who the International General Assembly is, so I'll spell it out for you:

From the Minutes of the International General Assembly
Quote:
ARTICLE VI
Governing Bodies
1. INTERNATIONAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY
Members

The International General Assembly is composed of all members and ministers of the Church of God 16 years of age and above.


So, here we see that the International General Assembly is composed of ALL members and ministers of the Church of God ages 16 and up.

Now, to another section of the Minutes that you are not familiar with:
Quote:
S9. SECRETARY GENERAL
II. Duties and Authorities

The Secretary General shall
4. Have an audit of financial records and furnish the International General Assembly a statement of all receipts and disbursements, assets and liabilities, such statements to be prepared by a certified public accountant annually.


It's clear. It's explicit.

The Secretary General shall provide the detailed financial report to "the International General Assembly" which is ALL members and ministers of the Church of God age 16 and up.

Chris Moody has stated publicly, here on this forum and in this very thread, that he is in favor of the Secretary General releasing this information ONLY to the Ordained Bishops (or the General Council) of the Church of God, despite the FACT that the General Assembly has REQUIRED it to be released to all members of the Church of God age 16 and up.

Chris Moody then qualified his comment to say that the Ordained Bishop who receives a copy (if one ever does) should then be the one to decide if the member gets to see it or gets a copy. The Minutes REQUIRE the Secretary General to release the information to the Church of God members.

Suggesting that we should ignore what the Minutes say and do it however one in charge wants to do it (by saying, for example, that one is in favor of a course of action in violation of the General Assembly) is to ignore the authority of the General Assembly.

The General Assembly has required that the information be furnished to all the members of the Church of God. Chris Moody has stated that he is in favor of the Secretary General releasing the information to only the Ordained Bishops- or releasing the information in a manner that ignores the authority and mandate of the General Assembly.

Sorry. No twisting of words, here. It is what it is.


It's kind of interesting to see how some use the authority of the GA in issues then deem important. But then criticize it in issues they don't. Kind of like a buffet. You choose and pick what you want.


Who has criticized the authority of the General Assembly?

Poor guy. You don't comprehend what you read.


And you sir have a short-term memory. You are constantly criticizing and challenging the powers that be wether it is the EC, the Practical commitments, our leaders. You have zero trust in any authority.You only have negetive imput into Church issues.

You are quick to cite what the Minutes states, but then on the other side of your mouth you come across as someone who can't stand the COG. You use the Minutes to your advantage when need be, but if it's something you don't like you constantly whine about it.You come across as someone who thinks we are deeply flawed. For years I always wondered why you are Church of God. Embarassed Embarassed
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8/11/11 6:14 pm


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Post Re: florida Forever MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
MARK317 wrote:

And you sir have a short-term memory. You are constantly criticizing and challenging the powers that be wether it is the EC, the Practical commitments, our leaders. You have zero trust in any authority.You only have negetive imput into Church issues.

You are quick to cite what the Minutes states, but then on the other side of your mouth you come across as someone who can't stand the COG. You use the Minutes to your advantage when need be, but if it's something you don't like you constantly whine about it.You come across as someone who thinks we are deeply flawed. For years I always wondered why you are Church of God. Embarassed Embarassed


First of all, the Practical Commitments are not "the powers that be." It is a list of rules and regulations. The Church of God teaches that the New Testament is our only rule and final authority for faith and practice. That means that the Practical Commitments are not the final authority and do not take precedence over Scripture. I agree wholeheartedly with the Church of God, here. Furthermore, I have stated that I abide by the PC's (except, admittedly, the caffeine prohibition).

Secondly, I do have trust in authority. However, you are half-right. I do not have trust in any person in authority that has given me sufficient reason to not trust them...which is VERY FEW people, but a few, nonetheless. You have also NEVER seen me state a lie about any person in leadership (or any other person in the COG for that matter). Truth may not look pretty, sometimes, but truth it is, nonetheless. You may not like what I have to say. You may not agree with it. But, it doesn't make it untrue. I have deep respect, trust, and affection for many in leadership in the Church of God. In fact, when one of our fellow church members in our state who posts on this board lambasted one of the best leaders we have (an AB in another state)- a man with impeccable character and integrity- I defended that AB at every turn, even being attacked, myself. I have often stated my affection for many COG pastors and ministers on this very forum. Yet, these are all things you conveniently overlook due to the chip you are carrying on your shoulder because you were wrong on another issue in another thread somewhere.

Thirdly, you've never seen me say anything negative about the Church of God. I was raised in the Church of God and I continue to minister in the Church of God. I love the Church of God. Disagreement with policies and actions is not disdain. Hate it for you.

Finally, again, I understand you have a chip on your shoulder because you were proven wrong in another thread about some peoples' pet "sin" (that's really not a sin), and so, since you couldn't prove your point in that thread, you are seeking to discredit anything that I say in some attempt to save face. I get that, but it's ineffective and doesn't change the fact that you were wrong.

In the meantime, since this is a discussion board, I'll continue to discuss issues as they arise. Some ideas I will agree with. Some I will not. In cases, where polity is involved, I will continue to cite the Minutes. In cases where doctrine is involved, I will continue to cite the Scripture. In all cases, I will continue to state the truth no matter the threats and intimidation tactics that may come my way. In cases, where you don't agree with me, you may state so and why. When you are proven wrong, though, just admit it and move on, and the leave the big boulder behind.

If you can't handle that (and it doesn't look like you can very well) then perhaps discussion boards just aren't your thing. Being stalked really isn't my thing.

To Tom, I'm sorry your thread got hijacked. The issue this thread addresses is a vitally important one in the COG and deserves attention and deserves to be kept in the forefront of issues. It's unfortunate that someone would attempt to divert attention away from the issue.


Blessings be upon you LC and your family.....Mark
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8/11/11 7:49 pm


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