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Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion
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Post Re: Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion usefull
C. Chris Moody wrote:
With all this talk on social drinking, Pentecostal distinctive, etc., it has me scratching my head. I am weary of the slippery slope we are sliding down. What would be our motivation for drinking a glass of wine, beer, or alcoholic beverage? Oftentimes, it is merely a status situation. There is more involved than a social glass of......fill in the blanks.

I spend lots of time with older ministers. One of these was Ray Hughes. He warned us in a class at the seminary of the issues being discussed on this forum. He said we will one day face scrutiny concerning our doctrinal and practical commitments within the church. I heard him say the exact same thing another poster said when he said it's easier to teach abstinence than moderation. He also said our doctrinal commitment on the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be attacked and challenged. Then he asked us a question what happened to you when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

What is social drinking and moderation? How will the youth group who just stopped in Chillis know the beer on my table was my only one? I am of the opinion that if you have one then you will probably have another. How do you teach kids social drinking? I mean how much is too much? It's way too complicated.

What happened to draw near to me and I will draw near to you? What happened to a life that promotes holiness and seeking that lifestyle. I am risking a lot here with my opinion, but why are we not discussing a life that seeks to please the spirit and not the flesh. I am very proud to say that my life has never had the influence of drugs or alcohol.

I do not consider myself an elitist. However, I will always believe abstinence is the closest biblical approach. Notice I said closest. Moderation is way too complicated. We are suppose to be leaders not followers.

As far as our Pentecostal distinctive, I still believe tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is what I believe to be our distinctive. This is the area that gets many squirming. Tongues is the initial...the beginning. That brings me back to dr. Hughes question what happened when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? I am in no way stating tongues as some badge to wear of exclusivity. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to make us witnesses.


One word....PITYCOSTALS
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8/11/11 5:46 am


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Post Travis Johnson
Jason Moore,

First, I love you my good bro!

Second, you touched on an excellent point...one that shouldn't be overlooked:

Quote:
4. In Romans 14 Paull told the strong to be sensitive, but also told the weak to mind their own business (v. 3,4). By the way, the strong in this chapter are those who have no problem with eating or drinking, and the "weak" are defined as the overly-religious and overly-sensitive. Needless to say, Paul identifies with the strong.

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8/11/11 8:02 am


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Post Whew........... throughtheflood
Is it the right time to conclude with a 'let's all go have a drink'? Rolling Eyes

Now, I'm not as edumacated as some, being from below the ole Mason Dixon line. But I have seed sum of dem books! I luveeeeeee lookin at dem pixters. I even onct taked wif a man from Georgie! Now drankin', we had to qwit that after the revenures busted it up. Got religin ater that! Laughing

(No, harm intended. Jus messin' wit ya Alfred E. Neuman)
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8/11/11 8:05 am


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Post Brandon Bowers

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8/11/11 8:12 am


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Post Re: Mark317 MARK317
Purplebarney wrote:
you wrote:

"Who is the one coming on here blasting the COG and throwing in our faces about drinking? You are beligerant and arrogant about your drinking alcohol. The method of which you post will draw criticism. You're looking to alcohol as your comfort and not the Holy Spirit. In my opinion."

I can assure you everyone on this board knows where I stand however I'll never try to rub someone's face into my personal beliefs. You won't hear me challenging one's salvation or one's walk with the Holy Spirit on here because they believe differently than I do. In fact, this thread was one of the best on this board because it didn't involve name calling or harsh personal attacks but that seemed to all change when you came on here questioning my walk with the Holy Spirit. Its ok to be passionate about your personal beliefs....I respect that.....just don't stoop to challenging someone's faith or walk because they believe differently. As for alcohol being my comfort? Not sure what you mean by that. Does it relax me? Absolutely! Do I boast because it relaxes me? Absolutely NOT! Do I turn to it for my comfort? Absolutely NOT! Do I walk in the Spirit? Daily!


I question any "Christian's" spiritiality/ integrity/ sincerity, who says stuff like:

Oh no!!!!

Please don't tell me I can't smoke a good cigar or puff on a Hookah.....please oh please don't go there. I've actually had some great discussions about scripture while sharing a "mango" flavored Hookah. I guess you guys all think I'm really going to hell now. Well, I'll tell you this.....I love the Lord with all my heart, will always share His great news, and will encourage people to turn from their wicked ways......but I'll gladly drink my Pinot Noir, smoke my Monte Cristo cigar, and enjoy the flavor of a good Hookah.

P.S. I'm not an alcoholic, a druggie, and most importantly NOT a sinner! I'm sure that just burns some of you up and I promise I'm not trying to rub it in your faces.....its just the way I believe. I'll see y'all up yonder!


You sound very immature to post stuff like that.
Of course, that's my opionion.
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8/11/11 8:38 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
Sounds a little judgmental to me....but that's just my opinion. Acts-pert Poster
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8/11/11 8:43 am


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Post MARK317
Eddie Robbins wrote:
Sounds a little judgmental to me....but that's just my opinion.


That's the problem with the Church. We hear stuff like Purplebarny and it's " OH! Well, to each his own" and we have accepted just about anything. He basically slapped our denomination in the face. He got in each of our faces and said " I do this and this. So what do you thnk about that"? And we spinlessly let it go.
We let this liberal / carnal stuff go and say "OH! Well". But then when someone standup against it, it's "Judgemnetal". We all should be ashamed of ourselves. If the liberals say their say, then I'm going to say mine.

This board need more men with some backbone and stand up against this . This mind-set is ruining our Church by just turning our head. It was my opinion as is yours. Enough head-turnng!
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8/11/11 9:27 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
If you want more "men" to stand up against it, why don't you recruit some? I'm sure Doyle would appreciate your work.

I stand up against stuff all the time and put my real name out there doing it. That's not "spineless," is it?
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8/11/11 9:34 am


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Post Randy Johnson
MARK317 wrote:
Eddie Robbins wrote:
Sounds a little judgmental to me....but that's just my opinion.


That's the problem with the Church. We hear stuff like Purplebarny and it's " OH! Well, to each his own" and we have accepted just about anything. He basically slapped our denomination in the face. He got in each of our faces and said " I do this and this. So what do you thnk about that"? And we spinlessly let it go.
We let this liberal / carnal stuff go and say "OH! Well". But then when someone standup against it, it's "Judgemnetal". We all should be ashamed of ourselves. If the liberals say their say, then I'm going to say mine.

This board need more men with some backbone and stand up against this . This mind-set is ruining our Church by just turning our head. It was my opinion as is yours. Enough head-turnng!


The Bible has several lists of behaviors that, if continued in as a lifestyle, will not inherit the kingdom of God. There is no question about these things.

However, there are a lot more things that are not directly addressed in Scripture, but are either indirectly implied or prohibitions have to be built through spiritual mental gymnastics from disparate passages (usually taken out of context). It is these items that Paul describes as disputable matters. They are disputable, because unlike some things (adultery, fornication, idolatry, gossip, slander), there is no direct commandment of Scripture against them. The prohibition has to be built by logical (or illogical) construction.
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8/11/11 9:40 am


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Post Mark317 Purplebarney
Can you not sense the humor in that post of mine? And how in the world was I slapping my views in your face? I was raised COG, respect many people in the COG, but have different views now....thats all. I'm sorry if that bothers you. I mean no harm. Just understand that i'm NOT a member of the COG anymore so I'm not bound by those strict guidelines. I have many fond memories of my life in the COG. I couldn't wait for the Gen. Assembly every other year, campmeeeting, youth camps, and in fact I actually washed dishes at the junior camps just to be a part. I have many fond memories. I've just moved on and have different beliefs now but one belief that has never wavered is my faith and belief in God and His Holy Spirit. It obviously grates on your nerves that I live the way I do. Get over it. I'm just one of millions around the world who believe that way. We'll see you in heaven but while we're down here lets be respectful to each other my brother. Acts-celerater
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8/11/11 9:46 am


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Post Social Drinking Restorationman
I have Graduate Degrees and understand the wine was fermented and dont think someone will go to Hell but I dont do it either my Post was just that there are other Conservative Theologians that have different views and their not uneducated southeastners as Jason catagorized them! By the way his Pastor started the Post and he's from Texas so that west of the Mason Dixion line! I'm not slamming anybody but if u have a Conservative Conviction on this there are as many that feel that way as the other side! However, lets just reach the harvest because they are probabaly not as concerened with our issues as we think! I feel they need love, care, and ministry and you can't fake that! I know I said I was done but in the Spirit of Brotherly Debate let's just all go on to the more pressing matters and touch hurting people with the Gospel of his unwavering love! Friendly Face
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8/11/11 10:50 am


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Post Re: my two cents Troy Hamby
Jason Moore wrote:
Deut. 14:22-26 Make an offering of ten percent, a tithe, of all the produce which grows in your fields year after year. Bring this into the Presence of God, your God, at the place he designates for worship and there eat the tithe from your grain, wine, and oil and the firstborn from your herds and flocks. In this way you will learn to live in deep reverence before God, your God, as long as you live. But if the place God, your God, designates for worship is too far away and you can't carry your tithe that far, God, your God, will still bless you: exchange your tithe for money and take the money to the place God, your God, has chosen to be worshiped. Use the money to buy anything you want: cattle, sheep, wine, or beer—anything that looks good to you. You and your family can then feast in the Presence of God, your God, and have a good time.
(The Message)

I know that some of you guys think the Message is a fairy tale, so here it is in the NIV:

23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.

Couple of other things:

1. We tend to be very gnostic/ascetic in our views about life in southeastern conservative pentecostal tradition. Anything that gratifies the flesh must be evil. Obviously, God thought that it was alright for people to enjoy good food and good drink, and have a good time ("rejoice" for you religious folk).

2. Drinking alcohol is not a "bad witness" in every culture. I talked to a friend in Austin, TX the other day, and he said that every church in the city he knows about (obviously not every church in the city though) serves alcohol at their events. There are other lands/cultures out there. You may read about them in books.

3. I love you guys, but it's another example of "adiaphora." Majoring on the minors. Spending lots of time on the inconsequential. It's okay to talk about these things in this company, I guess, but don't let this become thematic in your ministry.

4. In Romans 14 Paull told the strong to be sensitive, but also told the weak to mind their own business (v. 3,4). By the way, the strong in this chapter are those who have no problem with eating or drinking, and the "weak" are defined as the overly-religious and overly-sensitive. Needless to say, Paul identifies with the strong.

5. I've been away from Acts for a while, but it's college football season soon, and I'm hoping to catch Krista and natureboy's arguments.

Thank you guys for the opportunity to dialogue!

Btw...no drinking going on in my household either...just can't in good conscience condemn those that do in a moderate fashion.


Jason, i don't know who you are, but I already like you!! Very Happy
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8/11/11 11:42 am


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Post This discussion reminds me of Mark Ledbetter
something from the Talmud.

A student entered the house of study where the House of Hillel and the House of Shammai debated. The student observed that where one house permitted the other did not, where one allowed, the other did not. The bewildered student exclaimed, "Why study the Torah."

Finally it was concluded that both positions were "the words of the Living God."
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8/11/11 2:43 pm


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Post Re: Social Drinking Jason Moore
Restorationman wrote:
I have Graduate Degrees and understand the wine was fermented and dont think someone will go to Hell but I dont do it either my Post was just that there are other Conservative Theologians that have different views and their not uneducated southeastners as Jason catagorized them! By the way his Pastor started the Post and he's from Texas so that west of the Mason Dixion line! I'm not slamming anybody but if u have a Conservative Conviction on this there are as many that feel that way as the other side! However, lets just reach the harvest because they are probabaly not as concerened with our issues as we think! I feel they need love, care, and ministry and you can't fake that! I know I said I was done but in the Spirit of Brotherly Debate let's just all go on to the more pressing matters and touch hurting people with the Gospel of his unwavering love!


Restorationman--I am truly sorry. I didn't mean to insult any demographic, and after re-reading my post, I can totally see how it could have been taken that way. My point was simply that there are many views on this topic, both sides reinforcing their argument from Scripture. I just think that we perhaps could shed a little bit of our geo-centrism and broaden our horizons a little to understand each other further, rather than judge our brothers for their lack of holiness or liberty as the case may be. Again, I sincerely apologize if I offended.
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Last edited by Jason Moore on 8/11/11 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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8/11/11 6:38 pm


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Post Social Drinking Restorationman
I accept and thank you for information and your apology! I feel Jason that you are a class act! Friendly Face
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8/11/11 8:30 pm


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Post Re: Why? Daniel Rushing
Purplebarney wrote:
However, I love a glass or two of a nice Pinot or Cabernet with my meal. Not only does it complement the food it also relaxes me and that is personally rewarding.


But the fundies would say that if you are affected by the alcohol, you are sinning. To me, this is what the conversation really boils down to. We believe abstinence is easier than moderation, BECAUSE we feel that moderation must have limits so that we don't feel the effect of the alcohol etc... However, there is no use in drinking alcohol if you don't feel the effect! And in every Biblical context when wine is endorsed- it is always because of it's affect (Wine is praised; it rejoices God and men (Judges 9:13); it gladdens the heart of men (Psalms 104:15); it gladdens life (Exodus 10:19); it makes the heart exult (Zechariah 10:7); it cheers the spirits of the depressed (Proverbs 31:6), it's even good for the stomach!)

So for me- for the debaters to find any common ground, the moderate drinkers have to confess that alcohol effects them and they drink it for that effect. And the fundies have to be ok with that. Does the Bible teach that any drunkenness (effect) is a sin? Or, is it talking about a habitual lifestyle or addiction?
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Post Re: Why? Randy Johnson
Daniel Rushing wrote:
Purplebarney wrote:
(Wine is praised; it rejoices God and men (Judges 9:13);


Wine rejoices God?

I know this was spoken in a parable, the words were put in the mouth of a tree, but did those living at that time understand wine to rejoice God?
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8/13/11 12:09 am


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Post Daniel.... Purplebarney
Good post. I admit that one of the benefits from a couple glasses of wine is the relax and calm it brings. I know some on here will say "you should turn to the Holy Spirit for your relaxation" So what does that mean? Should I stop running because of the great feeling I get when I finish? Should I stop working out? And I guess going to my massage therapist is completely out of the question eh? I'm not trying to be cocky or arrogant. It's just the truth. I think there's a fine line between the relaxed feeling alcohol brings and crossing the line to being drunk. There are many who have the power to know where the line is and there are many who don't. The former should proceed with caution and the latter should abstain. That's my "non-arrogant and un-cocky" opinion. Acts-celerater
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8/13/11 8:50 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
Caffeinated coffee does the same. It affects. Otherwise, drink decaf. Acts-pert Poster
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8/13/11 9:39 am


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Post Why? Bullseye77
I have followed this thread, posted a few comments, had comments made about my comments that were from a different perspective. I have tried to be civil and entertain the thoughts and ideas of others. I have attempted not to consign to hell those who feel it is alright to drink alcohol in moderation. It seems that the defenders of both positions are very adamant about the particular position they have taken. There is no end to this. There is no concensus. There is only continued debate.
It has brought me to this point: Why are we continually having this discussion in the first place? Our predecessors may not have been as well schooled as we are today. They may not have had the command of the Greek language as has been demonstrated by some on this forum. But a discussion like this was un-necessary among them. They were interested in only pleasing God. If there was a hint of a suggestion in the Word of God that something was detrimental to their relationship to God and their influence upon the world, it was abandoned without a backward look. I have known preachers, who, when they were called to preach, could not even read. One in particular was taught by God to read his Bible during three days of fasting and prayer in the woods. This discussion would have been a total waste of his time. I have a retired minister in my church that was a hard fisted, cigar chomping, moonshine drinking reprobate when he got saved. It would amaze him that we are even having this discussion.
Having said that, I certainly expect the defenders of social and moderate drinking to fire up. It's ok. But my question remains, "What ever happened to the pursuit of holiness?" I am convinced that we will never accomplish what we have set out to accomplish until we re-discover the heartbeat of the Holy. Thank you Chris Moody for your thoughts which opened this discussion. With respect to those whose opinions are different than mine, and refraining from condemning anything but drunkenness, I now bow out of this discussion. May the Holy Spirit of God direct us in our pursuit of His Holiness.
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