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Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion
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Post Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion C. Chris Moody
With all this talk on social drinking, Pentecostal distinctive, etc., it has me scratching my head. I am weary of the slippery slope we are sliding down. What would be our motivation for drinking a glass of wine, beer, or alcoholic beverage? Oftentimes, it is merely a status situation. There is more involved than a social glass of......fill in the blanks.

I spend lots of time with older ministers. One of these was Ray Hughes. He warned us in a class at the seminary of the issues being discussed on this forum. He said we will one day face scrutiny concerning our doctrinal and practical commitments within the church. I heard him say the exact same thing another poster said when he said it's easier to teach abstinence than moderation. He also said our doctrinal commitment on the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be attacked and challenged. Then he asked us a question what happened to you when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

What is social drinking and moderation? How will the youth group who just stopped in Chillis know the beer on my table was my only one? I am of the opinion that if you have one then you will probably have another. How do you teach kids social drinking? I mean how much is too much? It's way too complicated.

What happened to draw near to me and I will draw near to you? What happened to a life that promotes holiness and seeking that lifestyle. I am risking a lot here with my opinion, but why are we not discussing a life that seeks to please the spirit and not the flesh. I am very proud to say that my life has never had the influence of drugs or alcohol.

I do not consider myself an elitist. However, I will always believe abstinence is the closest biblical approach. Notice I said closest. Moderation is way too complicated. We are suppose to be leaders not followers.

As far as our Pentecostal distinctive, I still believe tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is what I believe to be our distinctive. This is the area that gets many squirming. Tongues is the initial...the beginning. That brings me back to dr. Hughes question what happened when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? I am in no way stating tongues as some badge to wear of exclusivity. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to make us witnesses.
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8/9/11 7:02 pm


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Post Troy Hamby
Chris, we are all entitled to our opinions and convictions but it's when we start questioning other people's "holiness" because they don't agree with us that it becomes troublesome. Where in the Bible does it say that having a glass of wine makes you any less holy than if you are completely abstinent? I'm not advocating drinking by any means, but I am advocating not being judgmental which Jesus says very clearly is a sin. Golf Cart Mafia Soldier
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8/9/11 7:15 pm


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Post Re: Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion Joshua Henson
C. Chris Moody wrote:
With all this talk on social drinking, Pentecostal distinctive, etc., it has me scratching my head. I am weary of the slippery slope we are sliding down. What would be our motivation for drinking a glass of wine, beer, or alcoholic beverage? Oftentimes, it is merely a status situation. There is more involved than a social glass of......fill in the blanks.

I spend lots of time with older ministers. One of these was Ray Hughes. He warned us in a class at the seminary of the issues being discussed on this forum. He said we will one day face scrutiny concerning our doctrinal and practical commitments within the church. I heard him say the exact same thing another poster said when he said it's easier to teach abstinence than moderation. He also said our doctrinal commitment on the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be attacked and challenged. Then he asked us a question what happened to you when you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

What is social drinking and moderation? How will the youth group who just stopped in Chillis know the beer on my table was my only one? I am of the opinion that if you have one then you will probably have another. How do you teach kids social drinking? I mean how much is too much? It's way too complicated.

What happened to draw near to me and I will draw near to you? What happened to a life that promotes holiness and seeking that lifestyle. I am risking a lot here with my opinion, but why are we not discussing a life that seeks to please the spirit and not the flesh. I am very proud to say that my life has never had the influence of drugs or alcohol.

I do not consider myself an elitist. However, I will always believe abstinence is the closest biblical approach. Notice I said closest. Moderation is way too complicated. We are suppose to be leaders not followers.

As far as our Pentecostal distinctive, I still believe tongues is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That is what I believe to be our distinctive. This is the area that gets many squirming. Tongues is the initial...the beginning. That brings me back to dr. Hughes question what happened when you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? I am in no way stating tongues as some badge to wear of exclusivity. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is to make us witnesses.


Amen Chris! I'm a 29-year old, progressive, old-fashioned, and distinctive Pentecostal. I, for that matter, am proud to be Church of God too.

I don't know you my brother, but I like what you've said.

You weren't attacking anyone's holiness. I didn't get that at all.

Why is there such an issue when a COG minister stands up for our doctrine and practices?
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8/9/11 7:33 pm


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Post MARK317
I believe that wine was used in the old testement which was a forshadow of the new. I believe even Jesus may have drank wine. But I also believe that under the dispensation of the Church, wine was a forshadow of the Spirit of God. People in the OT were not filled with the Holy Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost. On that day the people thought they were filled with wine. That is because wine and what it did, gave way to the Holy Spirit. They appeared to be drunk, but it was the Spirit. And I believe it was at that moment wine gave way to the Spirit. Just as I believe that being filled with the Spirit of God today will one day give way to seeing and experiencing the Spirit in His truest form.

A lot of what some of these guys talk about that involved wine in the OT such as , the priests recieving wine, wine causing a merriment ( Which is under the influence) is true, but it gave way to the Spirit of God on the day of Pentecost.
In Ephesians 5 it says....18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

In other words what brings us real joy is the Spirit of God.

Of course lines are already drawn and I don't expect to convert a drinker, but I believe it give us an explaination of the issue of alcohol today.
Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations.
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8/9/11 7:40 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Abstinence is easier to teach than moderation, no doubt. But, as we talk about alcohol and slippery slopes, let's also be wary of the slippery slope of pragmatic doctrine, which out of a desire to distill Scripture in neat boxes, we go beyond the Scriptures and complete the incomplete sentences of Scripture.

Our pragmatism and desire to simplify shouldn't place ourselves in a higher role of authority than Scripture.

With that said, I believe abstinence to be beyond wise. I live it. I encourage others to practice it...but not from the position of Scriptural authority.
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8/9/11 7:45 pm


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Post 2ndgeneration
Thank you Pastor Chris for a great post. I completely agree with you on all points. Acts Enthusiast
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8/9/11 8:04 pm


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Post Eddie Robbins
I think my issue is with letting the other commitments slide. If you're going to have Practical Commitments, honor them ALL. That's it.

Last edited by Eddie Robbins on 8/9/11 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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8/9/11 8:10 pm


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Post mytimewillcome
abstinence is not old fashioned, it's actually fairly new to the theology scene in the grand scope of things Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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8/9/11 9:14 pm


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Post Great posts! Purplebarney
Its great to see Chris Moody share his personal beliefs regarding the issues discussed on this board when it comes to alcohol and tongues. I understand his point of view and where he's coming from. I obviously disagree with his point of view but I love the passion behind his personal beliefs.

I'd also like to comment on Mark317's quote

"Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations."

I'd like to turn that around. Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations. Things like people flopping around on the floor, running around the church, dancing like an out of control drunk, or interrupting the Word of God during the middle of a Pastor's sermon. As these things bring confusion within the church. I'm not saying these things aren't of God I just don't see the purpose for it especially in a church service. I think that is something that should be done during someone's personal time alone with God so it doesn't bring confusion to the Body of Christ.

I was born and raised in COG churches, camp meetings, and youth camps but I have a much different perspective now that I'm older and have a family. Just my thoughts.
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8/9/11 9:40 pm


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Post Bullseye77
My vote is with Chris. And I've been around long enough and I've been enough places in the world to see the results of the "slippery slope." And it ain't funny.
Once the slide begins, once the line is moved, once the compromise of principles sets in, there is no stopping it. And it will ultimately end in disaster. Not speculating here. Been around long enough to watch it happen.
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8/9/11 9:50 pm


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Post Re: Great posts! Joshua Henson
Purplebarney wrote:
Its great to see Chris Moody share his personal beliefs regarding the issues discussed on this board when it comes to alcohol and tongues. I understand his point of view and where he's coming from. I obviously disagree with his point of view but I love the passion behind his personal beliefs.

I'd also like to comment on Mark317's quote

"Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations."

I'd like to turn that around. Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations. Things like people flopping around on the floor, running around the church, dancing like an out of control drunk, or interrupting the Word of God during the middle of a Pastor's sermon. As these things bring confusion within the church. I'm not saying these things aren't of God I just don't see the purpose for it especially in a church service. I think that is something that should be done during someone's personal time alone with God so it doesn't bring confusion to the Body of Christ.

I was born and raised in COG churches, camp meetings, and youth camps but I have a much different perspective now that I'm older and have a family. Just my thoughts.


I've been raised in church my whole life and it's been a long time since I've seen flopping and running. Why do we keep bringing that stuff up?

To the dancing...you don't have to act like a drunk to dance...you don't even have to be in the spirit...dancing before God is very biblical.

I don't understand why we put "tongues" in the category of "flopping". It's not the same and not even close.

And last but not least, I've had two people interrupt my sermons and I shut both of them down. I said "you can say what you've got to say when I'm done." That is out of order.
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8/9/11 10:02 pm


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Post Finally! spartanfan
We hear from the "other" side. Like Chris, Tom, Joshua and Travis - I too talk in tongues and abstain from alcohol. And like Eddie - I went to Lee College in the 70's. And I can present as good a case for total abstinence from the Scriptures as anyone out there - and I can appeal to good old common sense on the subject to those who don't care to use the Scripture as a guideline. Golf Cart Mafia Underboss
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8/9/11 10:20 pm


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Post Re: Finally! Square Peg Round Hole
spartanfan wrote:
We hear from the "other" side. Like Chris, Tom, Joshua and Travis - I too talk in tongues and abstain from alcohol. And like Eddie - I went to Lee College in the 70's. And I can present as good a case for total abstinence from the Scriptures as anyone out there - and I can appeal to good old common sense on the subject to those who don't care to use the Scripture as a guideline.


can someone talk in tongues and drink alcohol? or is that a rule that is set in the practical commitments as well?
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8/9/11 10:30 pm


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Post Alcohol consumption Pastors Friend
I had a friend that I did a lot of work for. He was an unsaved bail bondsman.
Very wealthy, and had a great understanding of human nature. He was a bondsman in Jonesboro, GA for more than 35 years. He said he had never drank alcohol in his life and never would because he had seen alcohol destroy more families than drugs by two to one. We had the opportunity to lead him to Christ before he died PTL!

But why in the name of common sense would a child of God want to drink alcohol when a raw bone sinner recognized the killer it is? If he practiced abstinence it should be a snap for a believer.

BTW, I have a son that has three DUIs and facing a fourth. He is twenty seven and probably facing some serious jail time. His pretrial is
Thursday in Savannah. It all started with thinking is was cool to slip around a get a beer now and then with his buddies, but it graduated to the hard stuff. Said beer and wine lost its buzz for him. How long will it take you consumers to loose your buzz on the wine and beer? Would you graduate to the hard stuff if it was offered to you? My sons attorney in a previous case was killed by a drunk driver just after he defended my son in his third case.
The drunk driver was the attorney himself! I don't need any scripture to tell me alcohol is wrong. I have learned enough from sinners what it will do!

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8/9/11 10:51 pm


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Post Re: Finally! Joshua Henson
Tom Sterbens wrote:
spartanfan wrote:
We hear from the "other" side. Like Chris, Tom, Joshua and Travis - I too talk in tongues and abstain from alcohol.

We're distinct...



Laughing
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8/9/11 10:55 pm


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Post Good discussion Tracy S Hamilton
This is good discussion. To me this is what a forum and discussion should be. It is good to hear people on both sides of this issue not try to prove an unprovable with scripture, and casting stones because someone sees things differently.

Some things are conviction, while others are scriptural. To me this is the beauty of our creator. He created us as individuals and scripture does tell us to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling."

I, like many other pastor's have some great, passionate people, on fire for God, who were not raised COG in the south, who do have that glass of wine, or a glass of beer with a meal. They don't see this in the same manner as those of us who were raised from birth in the COG.

I believe it works best when we preach the Word and add nothing to it. The Word can stand on its own on every issue.

The problem comes, when has been pointed out, that we take our ideas of scripture and feel as though everyone else should have the same mindset and view scripture the same way that we do.

It is not only the case with with alcohol, but tongues as the IE as well. What may be an absolute for me, might not be for someone else.
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8/9/11 10:57 pm


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Post I'm With Chris On This doyle
I'm older now than those years ago when I first started in ministry but I am not old fashioned. I realize the Bible says we are to follow the old paths but it didn't say we have to do it in a mule and wagon.

From what I see in Scripture, it seems God is really into the word "New.;" put a new spirit in us, speak with a new Tongue, we become new creatures in Christ, will sing a new song and on and on.

I'm a modern guy with a modern outlook on life. However, there are certain Biblical principles that apply today just as they did two thousand years ago.

I've seen all the discussions and so far none of them have shown that Speaking In Tongues is not the Initial Evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. I'm not hung up on the word "Initial." It doesn't seem to be a particularly Scriptural word but for our English language it signifies it is something that happened first.

From what I see in Scripture, after the tongues of fire settled upon those at Pentecost and the words "and they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost" immediately comes the words "and spoke with Tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance."

Is Tongues the only sign of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? Of course not. The Bible is very clear that those who speak with Tongues but don't have love, are only tinkling (as in cymbals).

One sign of the Holy Spirit Baptism are the words "and they continued steadfastly in the Apostles Doctrine..." So, steadfastness is also a powerful sign of the Holy Spirit Baptism. The disciples certainly WERE NOT steadfast prior to when they received the Holy Ghost as in Acts 2.

I'm a modern guy but like Chris am sometimes absolutely amazed at how some seem to be desperate to walk away from the standards that got the COG this far. By "standards" I'm not talking about legalism necessarily but the commitment to living a holy life, a separated life NOT JUST FROM THE WORLD but UNTO THE LORD.

The leaning toward what is called "worldliness," is not an attitude. It's the LACK of an attitude.

Instead of seeking to find ways they can be a more powerful soldier of the cross, they seek to find ways to project their personal liberties. The attitude of "What can I lay aside to be a more effective leader and witness for Christ to the people I serve, it's an attitude of "getting my liberty."

BOND SERVANTS didn't have a lot of liberty. Their entire life was one of serving others.

And though I don't personally feel the Bible mandates required abstinence but rather moderation, it's astounding to see that some in ministry just don't get it.

When a person enters the ministry, life is no longer totally about themselves and whatever liberty they may feel. Those we minister with and those we minister to become a major part of life's equation for the minister. We are no longer nearly as concerned about the personal liberties we may legitimately have, but in how we can live as examples of Christ in us.

While we may feel we have certain liberties, we voluntarily lay them aside because of our concern for those we serve and what impact how our supposed liberties would have on them.

Even if some minister was to feel that it is completely OK to have a beer on a hot summer day, there is no way we would do it because as much as we ministers may grate under the stigma, we are in so many ways in the eyes of the people, a representation of Christ and holy standards.

A wise minister who felt he or she had the liberty to drink would refrain because they don't want their life to be a stumbling block to others. And ohhhhhhhhhh yes, if the word gets around that a minister is a drinker, in most places it will ruin his ministry and influence, not because the Bible says he will go to hell for having a beer, but because that minister was not wise enough to remember that as a minister he no longer represents only himself. What he does in ministry is a representation of the work of the Lord Jesus.

Whether one believes it fair or not, when we become ministers, the people view us as someone who lives a step up from others.
When a minister reaches the point that he or she is more concerned about their personal liberties than they are about living a "separated and holy life" before the people who got brought into their path, it's time to step aside and let someone who "gets' it" lead the people.

When in ministry, it ain't just about us. It's about Him and His people over whom He has given the opportunity to have us as a leader representing Him.

If someone has a beer, it wouldn't bother me. There's more alcohol in some brands of mouthwash and cologne but to the people we serve, drinking represents a non-spiritual life, a product of the world out of which they were saved.

D
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Post Great discussion... KevinWallace
Tom said

"I treat the need to espouse distinction with the similar approach to leadership: If we have to announce it, chances are we aren't."

While I agree with the essence of this quote, I am not certain that espousing one to the other is exactly apples to apples. Obviously a leader who wields a microphone yelling, "follow me, I am a leader" has major issues that would indicate a lack of leadership as you have stated.

However, when an entity or organization fail to clearly state what they believe, the movement can be overrun by complacency and irrelevance. The bottom line is we have to be bold enough to clarify our voice (see Kouzes and Posner "The Leadership Challenge") I for one am tired of teflon leadership that doesn't stick to anything. We deal with it in the government, in our pulpits, in COG politics...it is frustrating for our followers to say the least. I am studying to see what decade the COG experienced its greatest percentage of growth. I think I know. But I want to make sure. I believe we grow when we embrace vision that has been cast

I believe it is important for us to realize that our "distinctions" are liable to become "extinctions" save someone clearly define what and why we believe. LAst year, while preaching in New York, I visited the church where charles finney preached. It now openly endorses homosexual clergy and promotes "openness" to alternate lifestyles from the pulpit. Charles Finney would drop a bionic elbow on someone if he were alive.

I don't believe we should parade our distinctions as a badge of superiority, I believe we should live and practice what we believe to be true. And for that matter we should align ourselves with people and organizations that are in harmony with those beliefs and interpretations. Herein lies the issue at hand, "How can two walk together unless they be in agreement".

Let's not be afraid of agreement and common ground. I know that the shift in leadership paradigms calls for openness and scrutiny. I'm all for it. But I believe the church must maintain its distinctions by continuing in faith and practice.
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Post KevinWallace
Tom please forgive me it seemed that I missed the intent of the post or insinuated in some obtuse way that you didn't believe in the dof. My point about ie or any other practical commitment is that we need them. Without knowing what we believe we espouse anarchy and confusion. Distinction for the sake of distinction borders on arrogant. Distinction gained by the passionate pursuit and practice of truth is authentic and revolutionary.
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Post Re: Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion Link
C. Chris Moody wrote:
With all this talk on social drinking, Pentecostal distinctive, etc., it has me scratching my head. I am weary of the slippery slope we are sliding down. What would be our motivation for drinking a glass of wine, beer, or alcoholic beverage? Oftentimes, it is merely a status situation. There is more involved than a social glass of......fill in the blanks.


I don't engage in social drinking. Others who argue for believing scripture on the issue don't engage in social drinking. I've probably drunk less alcohol than a lot of those arguing for total abstinence because I try not to take medicine if I don't have to.


Quote:

What is social drinking and moderation? How will the youth group who just stopped in Chillis know the beer on my table was my only one? I am of the opinion that if you have one then you will probably have another. How do you teach kids social drinking? I mean how much is too much? It's way too complicated.


How will they know that the burger platter you ordered at Chilli's was the only one you ordered?

Quote:

What happened to draw near to me and I will draw near to you? What happened to a life that promotes holiness and seeking that lifestyle. I am risking a lot here with my opinion, but why are we not discussing a life that seeks to please the spirit and not the flesh. I am very proud to say that my life has never had the influence of drugs or alcohol.


Can we be holier than Jesus? I don't think so.
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