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Maybe I'm Too Old Fashion
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Post Square Peg Round Hole
Kyle Morrow wrote:
If the Bible said food was a mocker and I could live without eating, then I would practice total abstinence from food,


you would also be dead
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8/10/11 11:18 am


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Post MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Militant. Laughing

No, I'm just right.

Consumption of alcohol is not a sin. It's a fact. It's not changing.

Sorry.

The sun is hot. That's a statement of fact. Someone can disagree with that statement all day long, but at the end of the day, the sun will still be hot.

Of course, I'll give you the opportunity to show us where consumption of alcohol was forbidden after the coming of the Holy Spirit?

But, that will only result in frustration on your part, since it cannot be done.


Although not the Bible expert as yourself, it appears that wine after Pentecost was not a major part of the Church. I know....I know there are a few references to it being used. But it didn't play a part of the New Church like it did before the Church. That's because the Holy Spirit tooks it's place. I see no place where it is forbidden, but I also see the appearant trend of the Early Church to not depend on it like the OT. Wine was a part of their culture, but it appears that it was discouraged to consume.
Again.......If you drink till you are merry, you are under the influence. It is clear in the NT that it is the Holy Spirit that brings joy ( Merriment). if you look at the whole picture you would see it also that wine took a backseat to the Holy Spirit. Forbidden? You are correct. But you and others have missed something somewhere. Have a good day. I am out of here.
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8/10/11 11:19 am


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Post Square Peg Round Hole
Kyle Morrow wrote:
I love it how the alcohol discussion always goes back to overeating. I'm overweight; I was born weighing 10 pounds. I've been fat my whole life. If the Bible said food was a mocker and I could live without eating, then I would practice total abstinence from food, but the Bible does say that about wine, and I can live without drinking, then I concur that total abstinence is the path to take.

Most of us probably personally know someone who has been killed by a drunk driver. I know of women who have been in the hospital because their husband came home drunk and beat them within an inch of their lives. I know kids who don't get Christmas or birthday presents because their parents blow all of their money on booze. What about alcohol makes us think that it is okay?


seriously as my last response was in jest

you can't group everyone who drinks with the examples above. i people personally who live on welfare because they are lazy and don't want to work. i know people personally who beat their wives and kids because they have anger issues, and have never had a sip of alcohol in their lives. there are also people who miss Christmas/birthday presents because they selfish and only want to receive and not give. these people also are Church of God members. yet the Presbyterian church in my town does much more for the community - but they are frowned upon by us (COG) because they drink.

all of these are people i personally know that have never drank a beer, glass of wine, or a mixed drink ever. not to try and argue, but your reasons are flawed.
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8/10/11 11:22 am


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Post Serious Question Bullseye77
If the use of wine in the early church was common practice among believers, why was it necessary for the Apostle Paul to tell Timothy to use a "little" wine for medicinal purposes? And he did mean "little."
1Ti 5:23 (BBE) Do not take only water as your drink, but take a little wine for the good of your stomach, and because you are frequently ill.
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8/10/11 11:33 am


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Post Re: Mark317 MARK317
Purplebarney wrote:
We're all having a discussion without name calling or blasting someone else's views.....then.....you come on here and make a statement like this.....

"Any believer who is part of a group that has Bible studies and drinks beer at the same time, clearly are not looking to the Holy Spirit. Also, if one of them have an accident while driving home, some is going to have some explaining to do. "


Really??? I'm not looking to the Holy Spirit? Pretty harsh words since you don't even know me. I can assure you that I follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit and I'm a full on Spirit filled believer!

And not to beat a dead horse but I agree with many on here when they say they're tired of people comparing a cold beer to being drunk. RIDICULOUS! For the five millionth time.....I drink alcohol and I'm not an alcoholic nor do I get drunk.....PERIOD!


Who is the one coming on here blasting the COG and throwing in our faces about drinking? You are beligerant and arrogant about your drinking alcohol. The method of which you post will draw criticism. You're looking to alcohol as your comfort and not the Holy Spirit. In my opinion.
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8/10/11 11:33 am


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Post Re: Great posts! MARK317
Purplebarney wrote:
Its great to see Chris Moody share his personal beliefs regarding the issues discussed on this board when it comes to alcohol and tongues. I understand his point of view and where he's coming from. I obviously disagree with his point of view but I love the passion behind his personal beliefs.

I'd also like to comment on Mark317's quote

"Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations."

I'd like to turn that around. Wether I am right or wrong, I believe we missed something somewhere, to think that Jesus would endorse something that would bring so much pain to so many generations. Things like people flopping around on the floor, running around the church, dancing like an out of control drunk, or interrupting the Word of God during the middle of a Pastor's sermon. As these things bring confusion within the church. I'm not saying these things aren't of God I just don't see the purpose for it especially in a church service. I think that is something that should be done during someone's personal time alone with God so it doesn't bring confusion to the Body of Christ.

I was born and raised in COG churches, camp meetings, and youth camps but I have a much different perspective now that I'm older and have a family. Just my thoughts.


Best be careful Barney. You are messing with something of which you appearingly don't believe in or experienced.
I think it takes a dense/ weak brother to compare what I have written about Wine VS Holy Spirit, to the manifestation of the Spirit. I feel a little sorry for you.
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8/10/11 11:39 am


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Post Practical Commitments in Context... Quiet Wyatt
Quote:
Addiction and Enslavement
One of the primary benefits of our liberty in Christ is freedom from the domination of negative forces (John 8:32, 36; Romans 6:14; 8:2). We are counseled not to put ourselves again under bondage (Galatians 5:1). Therefore, a Christian must totally abstain from all alcoholic beverages and other habit-forming and mood-altering chemical substances and refrain from the use of tobacco in any form, marijuana and all other addictive substances, and further, must refrain from any activity (such as gambling or gluttony) which defiles the body as the temple of God or which dominates and enslaves the spirit that has been made free in Christ (Proverbs 20:1; 23:20-35; Isaiah 28:7; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 5:11; 6:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; James 1:21).
http://churchofgod.org/index.php?page=behavioral-temperance&phpMyAdmin=EyPnWE74if52AvqTJ13%2COH6xVv1


It seems to me that the spirit of this practical commitment is clear from the context--So as to avoid bondage/enslavement/addiction, the Christian must totally refrain from addictive substances.

While a nitpicker would focus on the "must" aspect in a "thou shalt not" kind of way, in context it seems to me that this is simply good counsel aimed at avoiding bondage/addiction/enslavement. Nowhere does it say drinking a glass of beer or wine is a sin. It is simply advising abstinence so as to avoid enslavement.

The reason I interpret this PC that way is that many of them seem to have a similar theme of practical advice for Christians as to lifestyle. For example:

Quote:
Reading, Watching and Listening
The literature we read, the programs we watch and the music we listen to profoundly affect the way we feel, think and behave. It is imperative, then, that the Christian read, watch and listen to those things which inspire, instruct and challenge to a higher plane of living. (My note: Does this mean we should never read anything but Christian literature?) Therefore, literature, programs and music which are worldly in content or pornographic in nature must be avoided. A Christian is not to attend (or watch on television) movies or theatrical performances of a demoralizing nature (Romans 13:14; Philippians 4:8).
http://churchofgod.org/index.php?page=moral-purity&phpMyAdmin=EyPnWE74if52AvqTJ13%2COH6xVv1


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 8/10/11 11:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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8/10/11 11:44 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Also, I should hasten to add that I follow this practical commitment and advise those under my pastoral ministry to abstain so as to avoid addiction/enslavement. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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8/10/11 11:52 am


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Post Re: Serious Question Nature Boy Florida
Lord Chancellor wrote:


Perhaps, Timothy was fasting for a period and only drinking water and was having some sort effect from that. I've known of that kind of thing to happen to people who have fasted for a lengthy time.


So a fast to you would be drinking beer and wine but abstaining from food? Who knew that's what Paul meant! I bet there is a lot of fasting at your church LC - especially after an Auburn loss.


Lord Chancellor wrote:

But, if wine was not common in the early churches, then why did Paul tell the church in Corinth that they should drink in their houses and not get drunk at the church gatherings and Lord's Suppers? I mean, I guess they were getting drunk off of all that grape juice they were consuming.


So Paul wanted us to follow everything the folks at Corinth were doing - because it appears that did everything right - just do it at home? Is that what you are saying? When you finish your biblical commentary on all the scriptures - I want to purchase a copy. This is good stuff. Twisted Evil
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Post Are we trying to "fix God's word"? FloridaForever
Do we do God service by "fixing" the Word of God so that it is "more acceptable" to God? That is, if God does not condemn drinking, are we trying to keep God from making a big mistake when we preach abstinence?

Kind of like saying, "God, you probably didn't realize just how people might take advantage of this, so we're going to revise it so that it works better."

Of course, I know that is not our intention. But I would be you that the Pharisees also thought they were helping God out by "clarifying" the scriptures.

MAYBE God left them so open to interpretation so that we will be led of the Spirit...or forced to work out our own salvation.

I've never had a drink. I don't intend to ever have one. But only because that is a life modeled by my father...and one that I want to pass on to my son.

It certainly is wisdom to refrain altogether, I think. But to REQUIRE it borders on helping clarify things for God, doesn't it? I'm old fashioned, too, Pastor Moody (believe it or not). But it is the PURE WORD I want--not our footnotes to it.
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8/10/11 12:03 pm


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Post Nature Boy Florida
No deception LC. Acting like someone twisted your words doesn't make it so.

I just felt it comical that your first thought regarding Paul's admonition to Timothy was that he should drink alcohol when he was fasting.

You might want to read your own words again.

That is what you said.

And I found it funny.
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8/10/11 12:24 pm


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Post Wow C. Chris Moody
I have enjoyed this discussion. Our attitudes have become so casual in our worship, traditions, beliefs, conduct, lifestyle, that we are becoming casualties of the enemy. Casualness will make you a casualty. Call me a legalist preacher from 1979, but one tradition we continually ignore is prayer.

Let me just dive in. As a kid growing up in a rural church, every service people would gather in the altar to pray for our services. From the very moment my feet hit the gravel parking lot, I could hear the saints praying. These people were not debating is it ok to drink, smoke, eat, etc. They were too busy seeking God. Did they have some flaws in their approach and uneducated ideas...ABSOLUTELY. However, these people knew how to touch God. I would dare say the reason God doesn't speak to us about some of these issues, being discussed on this board, is because we don't give Him the opportunity. I'm afraid this pendulum is sliding down the slippery slope of casualness. No I am not talking about dress. I am speaking only to the condition of our church today. These two issues being addressed here are just the surface. Our REAL issues go much deeper.

Our issues go all the way back to the pocketbook. Yes the root of all evil is money. There is not much debate on this. The scripture is what it is, and says what it says. I'm hijacking my own thread, I better stop here and maybe finish on another topic of discussion.
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8/10/11 12:34 pm


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Post steel
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Post Joshua Henson
I find really funny how we're debating the exact same issues in at least four different posts right now.

It's been great. I love when we can come to the table from different sides of an issue and discuss it without naming calling and personal attacks.
(for the most part)

What I always find amazing is that we all agree on about 99% of the Bible, but we love to argue, discuss and debate over the 1%.

I am thankful that truly God's grace is sufficient and His strength is made perfect in our weaknesses.
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8/10/11 1:38 pm


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Post Re: Are we trying to "fix God's word"? Cojak
FloridaForever wrote:
Do we do God service by "fixing" the Word of God so that it is "more acceptable" to God? That is, if God does not condemn drinking, are we trying to keep God from making a big mistake when we preach abstinence?

Kind of like saying, "God, you probably didn't realize just how people might take advantage of this, so we're going to revise it so that it works better."

Of course, I know that is not our intention. But I would be you that the Pharisees also thought they were helping God out by "clarifying" the scriptures.

MAYBE God left them so open to interpretation so that we will be led of the Spirit...or forced to work out our own salvation.

I've never had a drink. I don't intend to ever have one. But only because that is a life modeled by my father...and one that I want to pass on to my son.

It certainly is wisdom to refrain altogether, I think. But to REQUIRE it borders on helping clarify things for God, doesn't it? I'm old fashioned, too, Pastor Moody (believe it or not). But it is the PURE WORD I want--not our footnotes to it.


Thumb Up Thumb Up

My only complaint about the discussion of Alcohol is that immediatley someone goes to hinting or saying that everyone who cannot see that Drinking is WRONG either is drinking, or wants to get drunk. The ones who cannot see totally abstaining are even pictured sitting in church sipping a beer with the youth.

LC, FF and others have said it, THEY PRACTICE TOTAL ABSTINENCE, they abide by COG practical factors, but cannot find consuming alcohol to be a sin. A flat statement that seems hard to understand. No COG preacher has said come on over and have a beer! But by some responses, that how you read it.

My life has been empacted by alcohol, worse than most, but I still cannot see where Jesus forbade drinking wine. Drunkeness is a SIN the Bible says that.
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8/10/11 1:42 pm


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Post MARK317
Lord Chancellor wrote:
MARK317 wrote:
I see no place where it is forbidden, but I also see the appearant trend of the Early Church to not depend on it like the OT. Wine was a part of their culture, but it appears that it was discouraged to consume.


I didn't think you would see a place where wine was forbidden. Thanks, for affirming that fact that I pointed out.

Can you point us to the place, then, where drinking it was discouraged? I can point to places where it is sanctioned and even encouraged, but I don't see any place where it was discouraged.

I'll be patiently waiting.

Again, this will be an exercise in futility for you, though.

Thanks for saying I'm a Bible expert. I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I am well versed on this issue.

I don't have an internet doctorate or anything, but I'm still a pretty smart guy.


Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
This telling us , since we have the Holy Spirit, it is in excess to drink wine. A clear message to discourage drinking wine.

1 Timothy 3:1This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3Not given to wine,


Another reference to discourage or in this case forbid wine.

1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Not necesarily forbidden, but a clear message to discourage it's use.

Titus 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Another forbiddance of wine.

Titus 2:3The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

Not a forbiddance, but it is clear that it can not be a good thing to participate in.

1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

Another place it doesn't forbid, but it groups it together with other sin.

So in some places it is forbidden and others it marks it as something that can be a real hazzard to a Christian.

Now then..............It is your turn to show in the NEW testement where drinking wine is encouraged to participate as a good thing.
I know you will cite where Jesus drank wine, but show us in the NT where it is a good thing that can enhance your service to God.

I see several places where there is an underlying message that it will adversly influence your postion or calling, but I see no teaching that it can enhance a Christians walk with God.

You can't because it is the Holy Spirit that does that. And when the New Church began, it did away with wine and encourages us to have the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you, it doesn't forbid it in all situations, but there is the message written between the lines one has to look for that drinking wine is something that would be a good thing to abstain from.

There again , I know you, and I know you are very predictable. I could probably write your response if you wanted.

I almost forgot to say. I have had my say on this issue. I understand lines are already drawn especially after reading some of your posts on Actscelerate over this issue. It is what it is. But I am through.
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8/10/11 2:10 pm


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Post well Mark KevinWallace
I'd say that about refutes the notion that it can't be found in the Bible. Of course we will await the proper exegesis of these texts.
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Post Quiet Wyatt
"Given to" in KJ parlance, means "addicted to" :

1 Tim. 3:8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain, NASB

New International Version
Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.

New Living Translation (©2007)
In the same way, deacons must be well respected and have integrity. They must not be heavy drinkers or dishonest with money.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

International Standard Version (©2008)
Deacons, too, must be serious. They must not be two-faced, addicted to wine, or greedy for money.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Deacons must also be of good character. They must not be two-faced or addicted to alcohol. They must not use shameful ways to make money.

King James Bible
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

American King James Version
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

American Standard Version
Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Bible in Basic English
Deacons, in the same way, are to be serious in their behaviour, not false in word, not given to taking much wine or greatly desiring the wealth of this world;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Deacons in like manner chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre:

Darby Bible Translation
Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means,

English Revised Version
Deacons in like manner must be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Webster's Bible Translation
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre,

Weymouth New Testament
Deacons, in the same way, must be men of serious demeanour, not double-tongued, nor addicted to much wine, nor greedy of base gain,

World English Bible
Servants, in the same way, must be reverent, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for money;

Young's Literal Translation
Ministrants -- in like manner grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not given to filthy lucre,
http://bible.cc/1_timothy/3-8.htm
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8/10/11 2:48 pm


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Post KevinWallace
given to does not necessarily meaπ addicted to. In fact the word "given" is a word used in sailing or boating when a boat would be brought in to dock. It is the idea (so far as I can see it) that indicates we are not to make a place for the "boat" of to dock in our lives. Keep that boat out of the dock. You may drink BUD...but you still won't get no WISER!

ροσέχω

Transliteration

prosechō


Pronunciation

pros-e'-khō (Key)

Part of Speech

verb

1) to bring to, bring near

a) to bring a ship to land, and simply to touch at, put in

2) to turn the mind to, attend to be attentive

a) to a person or a thing: of caring for, providing for

3) to attend to one's self, i.e. to give heed to one's self

a) give attention to, take heed

4) to apply one's self to, attach one's self to, hold or cleave to a person or a thing

a) to be given

b) to devote thought and effort to
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8/10/11 2:59 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
Randy,

Not sure I follow the analogy here.

If a youth group member sees his youth leader having a beer - and Chris said how would the youth member not know it "was just one" - your "none of his business" reply is lacking.


Perhaps you are right. First, it is none of their business because they should have been taught not to judge another man's servant, not to judge by appearances, not to judge based on what is seen rather than what is in the heart and not to pass judgment on disputable matters.
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8/10/11 3:05 pm


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