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Asking how many sins it takes to lose your salvation...
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Post Quiet Wyatt
While I completely agree that our good works flow from a heart transformed by grace through faith, and that we cannot ever earn our salvation, that we should forever serve Him for love of Him alone, passages such as the following (for but one example) indicate that our discipleship/following of Jesus must persevere until the end in order for us to be made partakers of Christ:

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. NIV
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6/17/11 8:42 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
I agree. If you have an unbelieving heart, you are not saved. Good scripture!! Acts-pert Poster
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6/17/11 8:51 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
The problem for OSAS is brethren/Christians are here warned to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, not to have an evil heart of unbelief, and not to depart from the living God. It is not an exhortation to those who never believed in the first place. [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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6/17/11 9:02 am


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Post Scooter
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
The problem for OSAS is brethren/Christians are here warned to not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin, not to have an evil heart of unbelief, and not to depart from the living God. It is not an exhortation to those who never believed in the first place.


Response: No doubt. There are so many such injunctions at some point it becomes dishonest to teach otherwise. Shocked
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6/17/11 9:04 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
Just so you understand, I do not believe in OSAS. I think man has a free will to believe what he/she wants to believe. If you believe, you're saved. If you don't, you're not. It is as simple as the scripture teaches when the question is asked....what must I do to be saved.

Here is the problem. We can't really believe that we can gain eternal life with Christ without somehow doing something. We say we do, but all indications of our history and some of what I read here says we just can't do it. There are things we must do in addition to believing. It is my opinion and my belief that there is NOTHING I can do besides believing that Jesus is who He says He is.

Having done that, I strive to please Him through actions. That is the relationship I have with the Father. If I believe He is the Christ, I will strive to walk in His ways. BUT.....I cannot do it all. I could NEVER live up to ALL of His commandments and neither can anybody else. If you can, please come forward and tell your story.
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6/17/11 9:25 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
bonnie knox wrote:
Quiet Wyatt I just have to ask you if you've been terrorizing children lately.
Shocked


Not usually, unless it becomes necessary. Wink

To the unbeliever, saying Jesus is the only way of salvation and that all those who don't believe will end up in the Lake of Fire is certainly terrifying--as well it should be.

2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

The older I get the more I come to appreciate my earthly father's "terrorizing" of me thus as a child. He did not fail to warn, chasten, and discipline me as often as necessary, so that I would not bring shame to his name but joy to his heart. He also showed his love and care for us always, whether by affection or "terror.". If you love someone, you will do what is necessary to keep them safe.

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. KJV
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6/17/11 9:43 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
His divine power has given us all things that we need for life and godliness:

2 Pet 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5 For this very reason, make every effort to ADD to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. NIV

I guess Peter also didn't get the memo about "just believing in Jesus," doing nothing in order to persevere, and the supposed inability to obey Christ's commands.
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6/17/11 10:00 am


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Post One doyle
We sometimes forget how high God's standard of Holiness is. We seek a let-us-slide number with hopes if we stay under that supposed limit, God will let us get by.

If God spared not the angels that sinned and chained those beings of light in darkness to await the Judgment, He will not overlook our sinfulness. I believe even one unconfessed sin could be lethal because God cannot allow sin to enter Heaven.

Jesus didn't come and die so everyone who only did 10 sins for example, would get a pass while those who did eleven, get zapped for eternity.

Without the shed blood of Jesus, even one sin would be lethal.

Doyle
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6/17/11 10:04 am


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Post Eddie Robbins
We must persevere in our belief. Agreed!! Another good thought. Acts-pert Poster
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6/17/11 10:24 am


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Post Re: One kmann1
doyle wrote:
We sometimes forget how high God's standard of Holiness is. We seek a let-us-slide number with hopes if we stay under that supposed limit, God will let us get by.

If God spared not the angels that sinned and chained those beings of light in darkness to await the Judgment, He will not overlook our sinfulness. I believe even one unconfessed sin could be lethal because God cannot allow sin to enter Heaven.

Jesus didn't come and die so everyone who only did 10 sins for example, would get a pass while those who did eleven, get zapped for eternity.

Without the shed blood of Jesus, even one sin would be lethal.

Doyle
writedoyle@yahoo.com


How is that doctrine working out for you?
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6/17/11 12:59 pm


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Post diakoneo
Eddie Robbins wrote:
That is true along with all of the other things that Jesus wants us to do but making disciples and all of the other things that Jesus desires for us is not a requirement to be saved. We do those things BECAUSE we are saved not in order to be saved. If we are believers, we desire to please Him but pleasing Him is not a qualification for salvation. If it is, we can't live up to all that he wants for us. What must I do to be saved? Make disciples?


I didn't mean discipling as a requirement for salvation, but rather as a differentiation between convert and disciple. A disciple, does not practice sin and that is the issue here I believe?? Jesus wants disciples because disciples begat disciples.

I believe salvation is not an experience, but rather a relationship. As Christ spent 3 years of relationship with His. But a disciple MUST follow, if he is a disciple!
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6/17/11 2:33 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
It is an idea foreign to the New Testament, that salvation can exist where discipleship does not, that salvation amounts to little more than just avoiding Hell and gaining heaven when you die. It's like saying Jesus can be one's Savior without necessarily being one's Lord. Jesus came to save His people from their sins, not in them (Matt 1:21)

I realize and anticipate the response of some, "What about the thief on the cross?" If you wish to use such an appeal then quickly let yourself be nailed to an actual cross, be crucified with Christ and die immediately.

Deathbed conversions are every bit as much a beginning of the journey of discipleship for the individual as any other conversion, even if the journey for such a one happens to be relatively brief.


Last edited by Quiet Wyatt on 6/17/11 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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6/17/11 3:46 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Luke 24:46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48“You are witnesses of these things. 49“And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” NASB

Acts 20:21 solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. NASB
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6/17/11 3:50 pm


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Post diakoneo
Quiet Wyatt wrote:
While I completely agree that our good works flow from a heart transformed by grace through faith, and that we cannot ever earn our salvation, that we should forever serve Him for love of Him alone, passages such as the following (for but one example) indicate that our discipleship/following of Jesus must persevere until the end in order for us to be made partakers of Christ:

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. NIV


What does the phrase "see to it that you" mean here if there is not some action on our part...the "believing" is a work in the sense of persevering in it during trials. As the seed and sower shows about depth and thorns...
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6/17/11 4:17 pm


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