Actscelerate.com Forum Index Actscelerate.com
Open Any Time -- Day or Night
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
@actscelerate Twitter  @actscelerate Facebook  @actscelerate Google+ 

One COG Pastor's take on "Osamagate" UPDATED RESPO
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
   Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Message Author
Post One COG Pastor's take on "Osamagate" UPDATED RESPO Daniel Rushing
http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/the-christian-response-to-osamagate-2011/

Yeah, this pretty much says it for me. Here's a taste:

Quote:
When those in the Church think their brothers and sisters are weak, sentimental and soft for taking the words and example of the head of the Church seriously, the movement is in trouble. The people I know who are living out our command to be peacemakers in volatile parts of the Middle East, unarmed save for the gospel, are the most courageous people I’ve ever met. If you follow the logic far enough of where a lot of people are trending, you would almost get the idea that people like them or even Jesus Himself was a weakling for allowing His life to be taken instead of calling down the angels of heaven. When the reality is, the cross of Jesus redefined what strength and courage means forever—we conquer by sacrifice. This is not just for Jesus—we too will overcome the evil one only by “the blood of the lamb, the word of our testimony, loving not our own lives even into death.”

For the last 2,000 years, we haven’t been living in an Old Testament battle epic against the Amalekites, we’ve been living in the kingdom of the one who told Peter to put away the sword. We are indeed at war, but it is not with flesh and blood but principalities and powers, cosmic forces of darkness in high places (Ephesians 6). We do indeed taunt an enemy, but that enemy is death and hell—the foes that Jesus disarmed, stripped and publicly ridiculed in front of the whole universe through His death (Colossians 2.15). This is not advanced Christian theology—this is gospel 101. The terror of the Son of love dying on the cross is more terrible than any act ever perpetrated by any terrorist, and indeed the sting of all other earthly terrors has been swept up in this death. The worst thing that could ever happen in human history has already happened—and God already conquered by resurrection. The death and resurrection has already changed the world, and all other lives and deaths are only a footnote to that.


Last edited by Daniel Rushing on 5/4/11 9:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
5/3/11 2:45 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Dave Dorsey
Daniel, I think if you're going to advance theological positions like this you have a connected obligation to break them down into practical application, beginning to end.

With respect I'd like to ask you to start with 9/11 and go from there with practical application of this theology and specific things the US should have done in response. I don't intend to disagree or argue, I just want to see how it works because I can't envision it.
Now 67% friendlier!
Posts: 12224
5/3/11 4:23 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Nature Boy Florida
You are so right.

We have misjudged Osama.

He was done wrong.
_________________
Whether you like it or not, learn to love it, because its the best thing going today!
Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16045
5/3/11 5:16 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Shane B. Stone
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
You are so right.

We have misjudged Osama.

He was done wrong.


Cool
_________________
www.rpfield.com
www.twitter.com/shanestone
Acts-celerater
Posts: 913
5/3/11 7:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Jim Mann
Nature Boy Florida wrote:
You are so right.

We have misjudged Osama.

He was done wrong.



If I see him in Heaven I'll apologize. Until then.............
Friendly Face
Posts: 161
5/4/11 5:57 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Reply with quote
Post Re: One COG Pastor's take on "Osamagate" (L) Fisher
Daniel Rushing wrote:
http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/the-christian-response-to-osamagate-2011/

Yeah, this pretty much says it for me. Here's a taste:

Quote:
When those in the Church think their brothers and sisters are weak, sentimental and soft for taking the words and example of the head of the Church seriously, the movement is in trouble. The people I know who are living out our command to be peacemakers in volatile parts of the Middle East, unarmed save for the gospel, are the most courageous people I’ve ever met. If you follow the logic far enough of where a lot of people are trending, you would almost get the idea that people like them or even Jesus Himself was a weakling for allowing His life to be taken instead of calling down the angels of heaven. When the reality is, the cross of Jesus redefined what strength and courage means forever—we conquer by sacrifice. This is not just for Jesus—we too will overcome the evil one only by “the blood of the lamb, the word of our testimony, loving not our own lives even into death.”

For the last 2,000 years, we haven’t been living in an Old Testament battle epic against the Amalekites, we’ve been living in the kingdom of the one who told Peter to put away the sword. We are indeed at war, but it is not with flesh and blood but principalities and powers, cosmic forces of darkness in high places (Ephesians 6). We do indeed taunt an enemy, but that enemy is death and hell—the foes that Jesus disarmed, stripped and publicly ridiculed in front of the whole universe through His death (Colossians 2.15). This is not advanced Christian theology—this is gospel 101. The terror of the Son of love dying on the cross is more terrible than any act ever perpetrated by any terrorist, and indeed the sting of all other earthly terrors has been swept up in this death. The worst thing that could ever happen in human history has already happened—and God already conquered by resurrection. The death and resurrection has already changed the world, and all other lives and deaths are only a footnote to that.



AMEN!!!
_________________
There is an objective reality out there, but we view it through the spectacles of our beliefs, attitudes, and values. ~David G. Myers
Golf Cart Mafia Associate
Posts: 2017
5/4/11 8:53 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Re: One COG Pastor's take on "Osamagate" (L) Dave Dorsey
Fisher wrote:
AMEN!!!

OK, so the same goes for you: If you're going to advance theological positions like this you have a connected obligation to break them down into practical application, beginning to end.

With respect I'd like to ask you to start with 9/11 and go from there with practical application of this theology and specific things the US should have done in response. I don't intend to disagree or argue, I just want to see how it works because I can't envision it.

Theology is useless unless it can be practically applied to our every day lives. You, Daniel and others are advocating this as the theological position for 9/11, the war on terror, the killing of Bin Laden, etc. Please now explain how you view this theological position taking hold practically. Thank you in advance.
Now 67% friendlier!
Posts: 12224
5/4/11 9:28 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
As one who formerly was persuaded that Jesus taught absolute pacifism, I certainly do appreciate the intent to follow Jesus' teachings to the best of one's ability, though I have said in another thread why I don't find absolute pacifism persuasive.

Of course it is true that Christians are already more than conquerors through Christ, and that the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but spiritual.

However, since I don't see Jesus as actually teaching absolute unconditional pacifism, and as it seems almost too obvious to mention that Jesus was not calling nation-states to be His disciples, the idea that a modern nation-state should adopt a pacifistic policy in all things is, well, doubly absurd. (Not saying Jonathan Martin is saying this; in fact he does not appear to say this. I'm just responding to the subject of pacifism itself at this point).

How one gets from Jesus telling individuals to love their enemies like the Father loves His enemies to the idea that a modern nation-state should be pacifistic simply does not compute.
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 12405
5/4/11 10:49 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Dave Dorsey
Bump for Daniel. Now 67% friendlier!
Posts: 12224
5/4/11 4:12 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post What if... diakoneo
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry...etc. were of that mindset. What if Lincoln would have said, "live and let live." What if we decided to let the Japanese slide about bombing Pearl Harbor. You know, turn the other cheek.

Is there a just war?

Daniel, you and Fisher need to read the story of Sargeant Alvin York and how God helped him in WWI. He began his Christian life a pacifist too. Here is a link: http://acacia.pair.com/Acacia.Vignettes/The.Diary.of.Alvin.York.html

Sometimes you gotta fight for what is right!
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3253
5/4/11 4:37 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Daniel Rushing
Poll: How many of you actually read the whole article?

Dave, I appreciate your inquiry. Again, I wonder if you read the whole blog article? If so, I think you would understand what is being said here. To answer your question- I honestly don't know all the ins and outs of it... I'm just not that smart.

What I do know, is the posture of the church in the midst of international war and upheaval is to be one of peace- and not war. There are peaceful men and women of the cross, who understand the real enemy, that are at war all across the globe armed with nothing but the gospel. Jesus spoke in very clear terms that the world would be filled with wars, rumors of wars, natural disasters, and the like. The death OBL is just another one of those reminders of the kind of death and evil that is in the world- indeed his life was a vessel of such violence. And while kingdoms go to war with other kingdoms- the church should not stand on the sidelines and cheer one side or the other begging for blood upon blood.

What it looks like after 9/11 is kingdom people who understand that evil has dealt a deadly blow- but Christ has already stripped the power of death and wickedness and made it a public spectacle. Instead of a people who cheer the vengeful endeavor of returning violence for violence- we should be people who understand the volatile nature of the kingdom's of man- while praying earnestly "thy kingdom come, thy will be done".

I am glad OBL is dead. I am glad an oppressor and violent man is no longer able to carry out his wicked deeds. But it really doesn't matter-- because the real enemy will still be carrying out wicked deeds and works of darkness will still try to darken the souls of men. What it looks like, in practical ways, is a church that refuses to take sides when violence is returned for violence- but instead seek to be salt & light, love & peace, hope & courage to the souls of those caught in the middle of the cosmic struggle that Christ has already put to rest with his victory at the cross and resurrection.

I guess I am an alien- or maybe willing to admit my ethical struggles with all of this a little more openly than some. But I can not reconcile with the celebration of violence with the gospel. I just can't. And I don't expect our government too either. It's just odd when the lines of what we believe about our government and the government of Jesus blurred. What's even more odd- is when the church is completely ok with the blurring of the two. Since we can't logically make the teachings of Jesus work in every instance, we somehow write them off quickly to hold on to our patriotic or nationalism leanings.

I don't have the answers- and I am glad that 9/11 hasn't happened again, or Pearl Harbor. But I am not so glad that I celebrate the violence and blood shed. I think it's sad when we can't have this conversation. Especially when Jesus stepped into a politically charged culture with zealots, and oppressors, and an empire of violence and made no bones about his way of peace. He unabashedly confronted a generation of violence with the gospel of peace.


Last edited by Daniel Rushing on 5/4/11 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
5/4/11 4:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Eddie Robbins
What do we wrestle with? Acts-pert Poster
Posts: 16159
5/4/11 5:04 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Fwiw Poimen
Daniel, I didn't read the whole article. Nor did I find anything I disagree with in the portion you quote. Indeed, the church should follow the example of Jesus.

How some conflate the church here with America I'm not sure. Likewise with he confusion of the church's pacifism and mission of peace with American policy and military action. America may indeed have to war against other nations and people, but the church does not.
_________________
Poimen
Bro. Christopher

Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay."
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5656
5/4/11 5:10 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Reply with quote
Post Quiet Wyatt
Daniel,

I read the whole article. If you grant his premises, the rest was well thought out, though I'm not exactly on the same page as Jonathan Martin on this particular issue.
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 12405
5/4/11 7:09 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Members not going to war Mat
Members not going to war, was a teaching of the early Church of God movement prior to WWI. A. J. Tomlinson's own son, Homer, violated this teaching during WWI by joining the army. It is said that he got "gassed" by the Germans and was never the same, which could explain a lot. However, somewhere between WWI and WWII the COG movement dropped that teaching. Instead they adopted a very "patriotic" view of war; i.e., God is on our side because we stand for the right. Since WWII it seems that there has been a "mixture" of patriotic zeal and perceived spirituality.

I do believe that a nation/government can "bare the sword" for the protection of its citizens and that is the primary role of government. When we talk of missionaries going to Islamic countries "armed" only with the Gospel, we should remember that they are willingly responding to the "call of God." This is different then going about your peaceful and law abiding life in your own country when forces from without try to kill you and/or your family. Individuals did not seek revenge on the terrorist; it was our elected government which engaged in its duty to protect its citizens that brought force to bear.

Even Gandhi supported the English in war against the Nazis. He knew the "Christian" nature of the English could be appealed to through words and works of non-violence. He also knew that some oppressors have no such nature. I have no doubt that God can use a good "Christian soldier", just ask Cornelius.

Mat
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1669
5/4/11 7:41 pm


View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Reply with quote
Post Jonathan Martin Posted A Response Daniel Rushing
Jonathan has posted a response to some of the comments made on this forum in a new blog article. You asked, he answered...

http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/osamagate-pt-2-a-naive-response-to-critics-of-yesterdays-post/
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
5/4/11 9:53 pm


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Re: Jonathan Martin Posted A Response Quiet Wyatt
Daniel Rushing wrote:
Jonathan has posted a response to some of the comments made on this forum in a new blog article. You asked, he answered...

http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/osamagate-pt-2-a-naive-response-to-critics-of-yesterdays-post/


One of the numerous problems with saying Jesus taught pacifism (which He actually didn't--but be that as it may) is that if true, it means followers of Jesus cannot righteously be involved in the military or police force.

If Jesus taught absolute pacifism for His followers, He is a complete hypocrite for doing so, and in fact misrepresented God the Father in this aspect too.
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 12405
5/4/11 10:27 pm


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Post Stanley Hauerwas (L) p5harri
I read both posts completely.

I really love Jonathans tweets on Twitter. He has that fired up mentality.

However, I think that Stanley Hauerwas and Duke University may have had a great influence on how he views things.

http://today.duke.edu/showcase/mmedia/features/911site/hauerwas.html
_________________
We are beating the bushes for mice and the lions are tearing us apart.
Acts Enthusiast
Posts: 1705
5/5/11 7:21 am


View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Reply with quote
Post Re: Stanley Hauerwas (L) Daniel Rushing
p5harri wrote:
I read both posts completely.

I really love Jonathans tweets on Twitter. He has that fired up mentality.

However, I think that Stanley Hauerwas and Duke University may have had a great influence on how he views things.

http://today.duke.edu/showcase/mmedia/features/911site/hauerwas.html


An allegation he would not deny. Great piece BTW, thanks for sharing this link. I didn't even know it existed.
Hauerwas writes:
Quote:
Yoder convinced me that if there is anything to this Christian “stuff,” it must surely involve the conviction that the Son would rather die on the cross than for the world to be redeemed by violence. Moreover, the defeat of death through resurrection makes possible as well as necessary that Christians live nonviolently in a world of violence. Christian nonviolence is not a strategy to rid the world of violence, but rather the way Christians must live in a world of violence. In short Christians are not nonviolent because we believe our nonviolence is a strategy to rid the world of war, but rather because faithful followers of Christ in a world of war cannot imagine being anything else than nonviolent.
Golf Cart Mafia Consigliere
Posts: 3063
5/5/11 9:47 am


View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Reply with quote
Post Dave Dorsey
I really appreciate Pastor Martin's response to my post, and I hope he strolls by here again to see that.

Nevertheless, I still feel like there is unaddressed tension. I do not disagree in the least with any of his assertions concerning the church. But I also do not agree that the sort of hard line of separation he and others appear to be drawing between the church and the state.

How does the theology he has presented -- which, again, I take absolutely no issue with, especially as it concerns me individually and my personal heart attitude toward Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, or anyone else -- practically inform and effect, for example, the leaders I support and vote for? How does it practically inform and effect the national policies I support or endorse?

I agree absolutely that the best thing the Church can do is "be really good at being the Church." And so far as I am concerned as an individual I see no tension there. I can pray that our enemies would repent and turn toward God, and I can love them as God loves them.

But that leaves a LOT of tension -- not only unaddressed, but unacknowledged -- concerning how I practically apply the same in my interaction with the government and nation of which I am by God's grace and choice a part.
Now 67% friendlier!
Posts: 12224
5/5/11 10:16 am


View user's profile Send private message
Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Actscelerate.com Forum Index -> Hot Discussions Post new topic   Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Acts-celerate Terms of Use | Acts-celerate Policy
World News Network | Acts-celerate Chat
Contact the Administrator.


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group :: Spelling by SpellingCow.