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 Re: @Useful |
Travis Johnson |
| The strict Constructionis wrote: | | Thanks for perpetuating the mis-representation. Why didn't you post the rest of what I said? |
Because, you put yourself in the position of an elder reprimanding someone and did so by calling that person a girl:
A. Wrong.
B. Offensive that you would lay blame at the feet of all women for the response of another poster.
| Quote: | Look, if you have no problem with your wife, daughters and sisters in Christ wearing bikinis at your CoG pool parties, then go for it. If you REALLY think God approves, then keep right on doing it.
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There you go with your assumptions again. You have no clue how my wife and daughters dress (you really should leave them out of it...that's tacky and classless). And, you have no clue about what activities we engage in within our church.
| Quote: | | But those pastors who allow such at church functions are NOT leaders. Hmm, maybe they enjoy the eye candy. |
Yet another assumptive generalization where you project sinful desires on others. In blazing speed you indict women, churches, and any number of people as being sinful, tempting, lesser than you, or lust-filled.
I'm waiting for the Soddy Prophet to pop in here and add his two centavos. This is crazy. |
Acts-dicted
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4/23/11 1:34 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| The strict Constructionis wrote: | | diakoneo wrote: | Why would a woman wear a tight dress, with a slit up the back and try to show as much cleavage as possible (and sit on the front pew)?
Motivation is what I am talking about. Maybe they are unaware of what they are doing, but I think leadership does play a role in that.
BTW is there anything a man can wear and provoke lust? I am not talking about one or two women, but the majority. Men, though are all about visual... |
According to some "leaders" on this thread, YOU are the one with the problem. |
You are the only one saying that. What diakoneo points out regarding people intentionally wearing enticing clothing is a legit problem within the church. No one said diakoneo had a problem. You are the one who continues to do that while broad brushing entire groups of people. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/23/11 1:37 pm
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| Re: Should Christian Women Dress Sexy? |
Link |
| usefull wrote: | | The strict Constructionis wrote: |
But folks, something is terribly wrong! Are we so afraid of legalism that we won't even mention Biblical modesty anymore? The LEADERS are to blame!! If the word was being preached and TRUE discipleship was taking place, this kind of junk would not be happening!! |
Really?? 
Who is making you look?? From what I understand about FB you can unfriend them. Why not do that? Oh, wait a minute, you're friends with their parents and husband...riiiight 
It is easy to pass the buck and say it is the leaderships fault that makes you look at these women. |
There is no reason here to insinuate the Strict did anything wrong. Maybe he saw the picture and turned his head, scooted the window over, or just closed the page.
There is plenty of blame to go around.
Women are to blame if they flaunt their bodies to tempt other people. Men are to blame if they look with lust on women. Leaders and the church are to blame if they do not correct erring members. Pastors and teachers are to blame if they do not teach on modesty as part of the whole council of God. Older women are to blame if they do not teach the younger women. Parents are to blame if they don't teach their children.
| Quote: |
How about being accountable for your own actions. Sounds like to me you have a problem with looking. I'm not saying what these women are doing is right, but what you are doing is no better. |
Unless a guy has almost no testosterone, most guys have to willfully refrain from looking. Is it unreasonable to expect not to be tempted while looking at a facebook page or going to church?
| Quote: |
I agree we have gotten away from biblical modesty, but put the blame and the accountability at the doorstep of where it belongs. How do you know that their pastor is not preaching a Holiness standard. People do what they want to do and justify it, no matter how much it is preached about or what the Bible says. |
Good point. We don't know what the woman is being taught. But if we know that she is still a member in her church in good standing, and she is sinning, that says something. I think Strict's point is that she is actually a licensed minister and dressing like that.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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4/23/11 1:37 pm
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| Useful, et al |
Poimen |
Concerning Strict and these images ...
1st of all, he has stated his wife relayed the information to him.
2ndly, even if he himself saw the photos, I can attest to the fact (as can probably every brother on this site) that the male mind can briefly glimpse an image and retain much information of a sexually stimulating variety. It doesn't mean he stared longingly, or looked for any considerably time. It's how he is wired.
3rd, even if he had dabbled with temptation, or God forbid sinned, it doesn't change the point either way. Such immodest presentation of oneself is unbecoming a child of God, and a detriment and hindarance to fellow believers, especially brothers in Christ. Let us see that we not put a stumbling bock or occasion to fall in our brother's or sister's path.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
4/23/11 1:41 pm
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| Re: @Useful |
Link |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Because, you put yourself in the position of an elder reprimanding someone and did so by calling that person a girl: |
I can't find in the Bible where only elders can reprimand someone. Leviticus says that if your neighbor sins, rebuke him. Jesus said that if your brother sins, rebuke him. The Bible tells us to exhort and admonish one another.
As far as guessing posters are women, that is probably not a good idea on here, but you can't tell the gender of someone by a gender neutral handle.
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Acts-perienced Poster
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4/23/11 1:46 pm
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| Re: Modest dress is still a biblical directive |
Quiet Wyatt |
| Poimen wrote: |
A link a friend shared a while back, and one I recently shared on FB, deals with the issue head on. I think everyone could be benefited by giving it a listen: What guys think about modesty. |
This is a powerfully honest (and nonjudgmental) video. Certainly reflective of the way it is for young hormonally healthy men. This incredible susceptibility to sexual fantasy only decreases in frequency and intensity gradually after age 30 or so, and even then never goes away completely in a normal healthy man.
When I was in my teens, twenties and early thirties, it was basically only when fasting or eating fruit and vegetables only (low protein) that I found the sex drive to diminish.
Seems the LORD wanted to make absolutely certain mankind would be fruitful and multiply. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/23/11 1:47 pm
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| Re: @Useful |
Randy Johnson |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | usefull wrote: |
I bet you are a woman. If you are a man saying such things, then I think you lack testosterone. |
Actually, you insinuated that one person is responsible for another's sin. Not true. One certainly can tempt another. But, only you can sin for yourself.
If you want to avoid sin, avoid it. If you want to cause the whole world not to sin so you won't be tempted, you're Christian ideal is some sort of Taliban-like fundamentalist evangelical fantasy land. |
Jesus said, to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves."
Seems to me that Jesus placed responsibility on the shoulders on the one who caused the sin, not just the one who sinned. He told them to watch themselves so that they would not cause others to sin.
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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5433
4/23/11 1:52 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Poimen wrote: | While Travis is technically correct, one is ultimately responsible for their own sins. He seems to be missing the spirit and point of the matter. Others are responsible for being temptations to sin.
Adam sinned for himself, but he didn't sin on his own. Eve offered the forbidden bite to him. Immodesty is the same sort of sin as that. |
I understand the point. But, the fact is that you cannot exist in America...at least not in my world if you aren't going to come to terms with your own personal dysfunctions.
You can't go anywhere in public here and expect not to come in to contact with people, lots of them who dress to entice. So, you deal with yourself, especially with the knowledge that we are to be missionaries in our communities.
If someone is going to avoid sin, living as a missionary, a sent one, in our apostolic role and calling, you better believe that you're going to have to crucify your own stubborn flesh. And, that's the bottom line.
The logic of teaching Christian women to dress modestly as a means for Christian men to avoid sin is a waste of time. We teach Christians to be clothed in Gospel humility and modesty as a means to honor Jesus. Address the problem: sin. Don't fail to address the problem by choosing an easier scapegoat: women.
The truth is that men and women are utterly broken, sinful, and devastatingly distant from Jesus. We need Him desperately to heal our brokenness. We can't allow Him to do that if we don't own our sin. Own it. Recognize that we are our own worst enemy in the battle to conquer our lust. Don't blame shift. Own it. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/23/11 1:56 pm
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| Re: @Useful |
Travis Johnson |
| Randy Johnson wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | | usefull wrote: |
I bet you are a woman. If you are a man saying such things, then I think you lack testosterone. |
Actually, you insinuated that one person is responsible for another's sin. Not true. One certainly can tempt another. But, only you can sin for yourself.
If you want to avoid sin, avoid it. If you want to cause the whole world not to sin so you won't be tempted, you're Christian ideal is some sort of Taliban-like fundamentalist evangelical fantasy land. |
Jesus said, to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. So watch yourselves."
Seems to me that Jesus placed responsibility on the shoulders on the one who caused the sin, not just the one who sinned. He told them to watch themselves so that they would not cause others to sin. |
I agree with that. But, even in this passage, that is the secondary concern. Every man is responsible for His own relationship with Jesus. There's no way around that. I'm not excusing anyone who tempts. I'm just stating that if your strategy for avoiding temptation is to make sure that no one tempts you then, you have already lost out. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/23/11 2:00 pm
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Link |
Strict,
I posted a video on this topic a while back. There is another post on this in this forum, now, but here is the link anyway. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRw03god3Aw
I agree with your concerns. My question is, what are you doing about it. Leviticus says not to despise your neighbor in your heart, but to rebuke your neighbor frankly lest you share in his sin. Jesus said if your neighbor sins, rebuke him.
For a number of reasons, maybe your wife could do the rebuking, especially since she saw the photos. If someone actually called this woman or visited her, and lovingly pointed out that photos like that are a stumbling block to guys, and not a good witness, it might change the other person's mind.
I think the problem with a lot of women is ignorance. Lots of churches just don't teach on this topic. Male preachers may be concerned that people who hear sermons will have thoughts about them like Strict had about you. If they teach on this, the women wearing very little in church will get offended. It is a sensitive topic. In Pentecostal churches, there can be an overreaction to clothesline religion.
Combine this with the fact that our culture puts very little value on modesty. If you watch TV or happen to magazine or tabloid at the checkout counter at the grocery store, you are bombarded by pictures of scantily clad women. My Mom commented on how whenever you find a good blouse on sale, the neckline is too low.
My wife picks up on this stuff a lot more easily than I do, sometimes. They usually dress more conservatively in her country. And I think guys just pay little attention if the woman isn't attractive to them (which doesn't mean she isn't tempting another guy with different tastes.)
I read a post from a guy once who was a guest speaker at the church. The music leader chewed women out for wearing outfits that showed their shoulders. The guest preacher said you wouldn't want anyone lusting after women's armpits. The music leader didn't like that too much. But I have noticed that if there is an attractive women showing shoulders and a bit of thigh, skin is a bit of an eye magnet for me, and I have to consciously not look. Maybe some guys are superspiritual and it isn't an issue at all. I need God's grace to empower me to keep my mind and eyes clean on a daily basis. It is God's grace that keeps us from all sin. (Btw, I was a virgin at 27 when I married, and have never had sexual relations with anyone but my wife.)
I explain in my YouTube video why women dressing like they do is an issue for men, and how it causes men to stumble. One of the comments I got on my YouTube video was from a woman who said women needed to hear men speak out on this issue.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/23/11 2:02 pm
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| Re: @Useful |
Poimen |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | I'm not excusing anyone who tempts. I'm just stating that if your strategy for avoiding temptation is to make sure that no one tempts you then, you have already lost out. |
I agree with that. I just didn't read you that way in the earlier replies.
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Poimen
Bro. Christopher
Singing: "Let us then be true and faithful -- trusting, serving, everyday. Just one glimpse of Him in glory will the toils of life repay." |
Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology
Posts: 5657
4/23/11 2:06 pm
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Link |
| Travis Johnson wrote: |
The logic of teaching Christian women to dress modestly as a means for Christian men to avoid sin is a waste of time. We teach Christians to be clothed in Gospel humility and modesty as a means to honor Jesus. Address the problem: sin. Don't fail to address the problem by choosing an easier scapegoat: women. |
No, teaching women to dress modestly to avoid tempting men is a valuable use of time. It keeps the women from sinning against Christ in this way by tempting their brothers. It helps with their sanctification.
It isn't going to keep men from tempting. Plenty atheists, New Age, and nonreligious women will provide temptation for the men.
Teaching Christian women to dress appropriately is for their own sanctification. It can help the men to not have to worry about temptation when they go to church meetings. A woman (or man) dressiing or behaving immodestly could lead to sexual sin among members of the church as well.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/23/11 2:07 pm
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| Re: Modest dress is still a biblical directive |
Link |
| Quiet Wyatt wrote: | | When I was in my teens, twenties and early thirties, it was basically only when fasting or eating fruit and vegetables only (low protein) that I found the sex drive to diminish. |
No one told me that secret when I was in my teens and early 20's. I wonder why our culture has things set up so that to be economically viable, we almost have to marry later in life. Biology seems to set the time at 15 or 16.
But I think guys are different, even at that age.
| Quote: | | Seems the LORD wanted to make absolutely certain mankind would be fruitful and multiply. |
I wonder why he gave fruit trees in the garden and herb bearing seed. He gave man meat to eat after the flood.
Of course, if you live 900 years, you could have a lot of kids eating vegetables, I suppose.
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Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/23/11 2:10 pm
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Travis Johnson |
| Link wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: |
The logic of teaching Christian women to dress modestly as a means for Christian men to avoid sin is a waste of time. We teach Christians to be clothed in Gospel humility and modesty as a means to honor Jesus. Address the problem: sin. Don't fail to address the problem by choosing an easier scapegoat: women. |
No, teaching women to dress modestly to avoid tempting men is a valuable use of time. |
Then, we should teach people to park their nice cars behind the church so we don't cause people with hoopties to covet. We should also put a tent over our nice homes. Let us keep our large families away from people who are barren. And, for those of us who are married, let's not appear to enjoy the company of our spouse so we don't tempt those who are single and want to be married to be envious or jealous.
People, the reason we teach people to follow Jesus should first and foremost be....to follow Jesus because He is God and worthy to be followed. <---this is our everything...the main thing.
The aesthetics of everything else is secondary and should flow out of our followership of Jesus. Should we remove stumbling blocks from one another? Yes. Should other's weakness dominate our existence? No. We should teach them to follow Jesus and to crucify their own rotten flesh.
That's battle enough. Pleasing Jesus is enough. If we try to please the most strict personal conviction of the most bitter, tense person, we give the trump card to all of our behavioral activities to the loudest member of the body.
Paul didn't advocate this. No one in the New Testament did. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/23/11 2:15 pm
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| Re: @Useful |
Travis Johnson |
| Poimen wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: | | I'm not excusing anyone who tempts. I'm just stating that if your strategy for avoiding temptation is to make sure that no one tempts you then, you have already lost out. |
I agree with that. I just didn't read you that way in the earlier replies. |
Perhaps, you missed the first 8 words I wrote in this thread:
Guys need to be modest. So do gals. |
Acts-dicted
Posts: 7862
4/23/11 2:17 pm
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Quiet Wyatt |
Link,
I wasn't sure it was something that would work for everybody; it was just something I stumbled onto as a single man endeavoring to seek the Lord, first by just fasting three or four days on water only. At the time I also found the transition from normal eating into a fast was much less difficult (though still difficult to be sure) if I ate only fresh fruit and vegetables and light juices the day or two prior to a fast. I was amazed to find I no longer had to struggle much at all to keep at least my sexual thoughts under control, until I went off the fast, and then the same struggle was there.
Since then I have noticed scientific studies which demonstrate that testosterone is very much impacted by protein or the lack thereof in the diet, and a high protein meal (especially animal protein) causes a surge in testosterone within less than an hour after eating.
I wouldn't want to go back to my teens for anything, except for the really good physical shape I was in otherwise back then. |
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
Posts: 12792
4/23/11 2:20 pm
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| Re: Useful, et al |
The strict Constructionis |
| Poimen wrote: | Concerning Strict and these images ...
1st of all, he has stated his wife relayed the information to him.
2ndly, even if he himself saw the photos, I can attest to the fact (as can probably every brother on this site) that the male mind can briefly glimpse an image and retain much information of a sexually stimulating variety. It doesn't mean he stared longingly, or looked for any considerably time. It's how he is wired.
3rd, even if he had dabbled with temptation, or God forbid sinned, it doesn't change the point either way. Such immodest presentation of oneself is unbecoming a child of God, and a detriment and hindarance to fellow believers, especially brothers in Christ. Let us see that we not put a stumbling bock or occasion to fall in our brother's or sister's path. |
Thank you. The fact that few will even address the point of this thread is very telling. |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
4/23/11 3:07 pm
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| Travis, humor me please |
The strict Constructionis |
Is it proper and godly for a CoG or AoG minister of ANY age or sex to post sexually provocative photos of themselves on FB?
If they do, should their State Overseer admonish them? |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
4/23/11 3:14 pm
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Link |
| Travis Johnson wrote: | | Link wrote: | | Travis Johnson wrote: |
No, teaching women to dress modestly to avoid tempting men is a valuable use of time. |
Then, we should teach people to park their nice cars behind the church so we don't cause people with hoopties to covet. |
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One thing I notice with Peter's comments on dress is that they seem very much concerned with flaunting wealth, showing gold and pearls. When I was about 20 or 21 or so I went down to the autoparts store wearing a pair of shorts and a T-shirt. I was going to a Congregational Holiness church at the time. The owners of the shop were from the Fire-Baptized Holiness church, a church where the men cut their grass wearing long sleeves. We got into a conversation about such issues. I was wearing a cheap plastic watch. That was against their rules. They could have a pocket watch. Not a gold one, but a silver one was okay. My five dollar plastic watch was forbidden, but a silver pocket watch was okay. Come to find out, one of the guys I was talking to drove a yellow Corvette.
Maybe as Christians we should be careful not to drive too flashy of a car. I agree that some of these things are culturally relative, too, and some of it isn't.
But isn't the appetite for sex different than the appetite for a fancier car? It hits men at a much 'baser' level. It's lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs. I know we are all different. I don't think of myself as that materialistic. I'm more into function. I'm okay with a minivan. It performs the same function as a Mercedes sedan-- even more. I can take the kids and a guest. Maybe some men just don't have a big appetite for sex but struggle with covetousness when they see a BMW.
I think of the desire for sex, especially for a man in his late teens and early 20s, as a more fundamental desire like the one for food.
If someone has vowed to the Lord that he is going to fast, are you going to put a nice juicy stake sacrificed to an idol under his nose and then blame him if he eats it?
"Sorry Bub, you shouldn't have given in to temptation."
Of course you wouldn't do that. And I would hope church leaders would speak out against that if it were a common practice. Paul gave numerous reasons not to eat meat offered to idols, and one of them was causing the weaker brother to stumble.
The following is an extreme example, I know, but you seem to be advocating the idea that churches should not address the modesty issue. Let's say a pastor of a church in suburban America had attractive women attending who came to church stark naked. They'd come to church totally naked. The pastor's position was that we not be concerned with externals, so he didn't say anything. Some people complained. Women who wore clothes would talk about it to their husbands, trying to convince them that there was a problem with it. After a while, the pastor got wind that this was a concern. One day, one of the female song leaders decided to go with the fashion and she went up on stage completely naked, too.
Would you have a problem with this? Do you think the pastor is being negligent? Would you be able to go to church without a problem doing this?
I have heard that Arthur Blessed, the guy who carried a cross around the world, went right into the dressing room of a strip club and shared the Gospel with naked women. Maybe he did so without sin. But I don't think most guys function that way.
What would you say to a Christian young man who said he went to strip clubs, and it was okay. He said the Bible says not to look with lust on a woman. He says he has such a firm control of his heart that he can go there, look even, without looking with lust, and so its okay. What advice would you give a man like that?
| Quote: | Let us keep our large families away from people who are barren.
And, for those of us who are married, let's not appear to enjoy the company of our spouse so we don't tempt those who are single and want to be married to be envious or jealous. |
I see all these family metaphors in the New Testament, and I see a sense of community among the saints in the church. I also see that husbands and wives are supposed to love one another. I don't see how all that fits with what you are facetiously advocating here to make your point.
But what I don't see in the New Testament are any hints that we are supposed to show a lot of flesh to each other and if the other person is bothered with lust, its their problem.
| Quote: |
People, the reason we teach people to follow Jesus should first and foremost be....to follow Jesus because He is God and worthy to be followed. <---this is our everything...the main thing. The aesthetics of everything else is secondary and should flow out of our followership of Jesus. Should we remove stumbling blocks from one another? Yes. |
Sure, I am not disagreeing with you here.
| Quote: |
Should other's weakness dominate our existence? No. We should teach them to follow Jesus and to crucify their own rotten flesh.
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Isn't teaching people to dress modestly and not to tempt other sexually with their lack of clothing teaching people to put to death the deads of the flesh?
| Quote: | | If we try to please the most strict personal conviction of the most bitter, tense person, we give the trump card to all of our behavioral activities to the loudest member of the body. |
It seems to me that you might be over-reacting to clothesline religion.
No one is advocating that. I am saying that churches should teach people not to display their bodies in a way to tempt other people sexually (spouses excluded.) Do you disagree with that statement?
This is an area of teaching where many church leaders have been negligent, IMO, and something that is very much needed in the sexually immoral culture of the day.
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Link |
Acts-perienced Poster
Posts: 11849
4/23/11 3:16 pm
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The strict Constructionis |
| I appreciate your wisdom! All was well said! |
Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
Posts: 4295
4/23/11 3:19 pm
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