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Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus?
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Post Da Sheik
sheepdogandy wrote:
To return yet again to Doyle's question.

Will these people ever achieve leadership positions in your denomination?

Would you vote for any of them at General Assembly?


I would think not. Those who are divisive over trivial matters such as the wearing of cosmetics or slacks do not posess the perspective to lead such a diverse group of believers. I would not cast my vote for anyone who mentions ear bobs in a sermon.
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1/25/11 10:29 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
sheepdogandy wrote:
Nope, I'm talking about excess.

Tammy Faye and Jan Crouch excess.



Okay so let me get this straight, Andy. Is it your view that the CoG as a whole has gone the way of Tammy Faye and Jan Crouch excess? Is that what you mean by 'charismatic' as opposed to 'classical Pentecostal'?

I suppose there could be some somewhere, but I honestly don't know any CoG pastors' wives who remotely resemble Tammy Faye or Jan Crouch.
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1/26/11 12:40 am


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Post sheepdogandy
The Charismatic influence in the eighties (when I was there) was obvious.

Refer to Bro Randy's post for a good definition.

"Another distinction between the Classical Pentecostal and Charismatic is their view of the working of the Spirit. Classical Pentecostals tended to view the work of the Spirit as something that "came down" or "came upon them"; an almost irresistible takeover of their physical faculties by the Spirit of God. As a result, CPs viewed speaking in tongues as something only the Holy Spirit could "make them do" when He "came on them".

Charismatics, on the other hand, were taught for the most part) that the Holy Spirit already lived within them (either when they were confirmed in liturgical churches or 'saved' in more evangelical churches) and rather than receiving something that needed to come down from heaven on them, they needed to release the Spirit who was already in them and allow Him to manifest Himself in and through them.

Since the Holy Spirit was already in all believers from salvation, then everyone could speak in tongues if they wanted to, and they could do so whenever they wanted to, because the Spirit was always there to give them utterance. From this point of view, the phrase "receiving your prayer language" replaced the old Classical Pentecostal phrase "getting the baptism".

Leadership in the C/G embraced it in order to boost the numbers.

It's a philosophy, one of the evidences is excess in appearance.

It was like women were taking their pound of flesh for having to dress consertively for so long. Very Happy

We're not gonna take it anymore and we're not gonna do it anymore.

When the State Overseer's wives began to add to their wardrobe (little by little) the dam broke.

From my perspective at that time.
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1/26/11 9:54 am


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Post bradfreeman
sheepdogandy wrote:
When the State Overseer's wives began to add to their wardrobe (little by little) the dam broke.

From my perspective at that time.


I have never seen pink hair (Jan) or TF style makeup on a pastor's or overseer's wife.

Can you describe the breaking dam for me? Attractive clothes? Short hair styles? Jewelry? Makeup?

When you say "add to their wardrobe", are referring to a particular style of clothing?
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1/26/11 10:04 am


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Post Look at usefull
Marcus and Joni lamb and you see the best example of the CoG, more so that Tammy or Jan Friendly Face
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1/26/11 10:45 am


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Post NPS39
I think this is painting with a broad brush, classifying an entire denomination by the actions and attitudes of some.

What you also found were people that did not necessarily believe in the outward expression but were abiding by it due to loyalty to the church teachings. I know a pastor's that had her ears pierced prior to becoming CoG, in honor of her commitment she refrained from wearing earrings, but would put them in from time to time to keep the holes open...so were our keeping of the commitments heart felt or true convictions, or were we abiding by something we were taught to be correct?

I think the greater evil is that we in many places are losing our distinction as a Spirit-Filled church, has nothing to do with outward expression, but with a desire to fit in and be like everyone else.

We may have in many ways put too much emphasis on spiritual gifts and manifestations, but now we may not be putting enough. Our emphasis has to be on our relationship with Jesus Christ, living and operating in the power of the Holy Spirit, and allowing that power to enable us to reflect Christ and witness to others the story of Who He is and what He can and will do in their lives.

It doesn't have to be and isn't supposed to be a war between conservative or liberal, or labeling of classical or charismatic...we need Jesus and one another!
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1/26/11 10:55 am


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Post Randy Johnson
bradfreeman wrote:
Can you describe the breaking dam for me? Attractive clothes? Short hair styles? Jewelry? Makeup?

When you say "add to their wardrobe", are referring to a particular style of clothing?


"Attractive" to what? Attractive to the eyes of men other than their husbands. Or if they are unmarried, attractive to men to make them more (the women) sexually desirable.

What it all boils down to is a subtle downgrade and changing of the heart and mind that the world isn't as bad as our parents and grandparents made it out to be. The growing perception that we can love the world and Jesus too (in spite of clear Scriptural injunction that we cannot).
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1/26/11 11:09 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Randy Johnson wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Can you describe the breaking dam for me? Attractive clothes? Short hair styles? Jewelry? Makeup?

When you say "add to their wardrobe", are referring to a particular style of clothing?


"Attractive" to what? Attractive to the eyes of men other than their husbands. Or if they are unmarried, attractive to men to make them more (the women) sexually desirable.

What it all boils down to is a subtle downgrade and changing of the heart and mind that the world isn't as bad as our parents and grandparents made it out to be. The growing perception that we can love the world and Jesus too (in spite of clear Scriptural injunction that we cannot).




Kind of nails it down does'nt it.

To answer Doyle's question.

NO, there is no room at the table for these believers who practice conservative standards in dress and conduct.

They will never be elected to state or general office in the Church of God.

To many of you (I dare say the majority) this provokes a sigh of relief.

There are examples of excess in personal appearance among the wives of Administrative Bishops. They set the standard for their state, you all know it.

The Church has been led away from the principles her inception.

Maybe it's just a sign of the times.

Remember these are my perceptions, based upon my experience and observations over the years.

I have no agenda neither am I on a crusade to effect the folks at Cleveland at all.
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1/26/11 12:41 pm


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Post sheepdogandy
Striper?
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1/26/11 1:30 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
Tom Sterbens wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:
Randy Johnson wrote:
bradfreeman wrote:
Can you describe the breaking dam for me? Attractive clothes? Short hair styles? Jewelry? Makeup?

When you say "add to their wardrobe", are referring to a particular style of clothing?


"Attractive" to what? Attractive to the eyes of men other than their husbands. Or if they are unmarried, attractive to men to make them more (the women) sexually desirable.

What it all boils down to is a subtle downgrade and changing of the heart and mind that the world isn't as bad as our parents and grandparents made it out to be. The growing perception that we can love the world and Jesus too (in spite of clear Scriptural injunction that we cannot).



Kind of nails it down does'nt it.


Doesn't "nail it down" for me at all. It is an opinion... and the issue is relative not absolute. I don't know that you can just look at a believer and based on their dress code then decide, "they love the world more than God."


Tom, I didn't say "more than", I said "both". They love both the world and Jesus, or at least attempt to. And there is the problem. We have learned to accommodate the world and its desires and values and "stay Christian".
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1/26/11 1:39 pm


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Post Quiet Wyatt
Man judges on the outward.

It is not evident how a person wanting to look their best necessarily means they love the world and its ways. It is also not clear how wanting to look as plain and homely as possible is necessarily a sign of loving God.
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1/26/11 1:47 pm


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Post Here's the real bus story aprilmay
The real story about the bus.

First, thereís no way the classical Pentecostals are on the back of the bus. They were the original group so when they got on the bus, the sat in the front. Then when other groups got on the bus, they had to go to the back because there were no seats in the front.

However, once the bus filled up, the emergents (who were really on the back of the bus) with their silver tongues, shaved heads (like francis chan) and their slick keynote presentations (see travis johnson) actually convinced the classical Pentecostals that the back of the bus was the front of the bus and the front was the back.

This reversal theology could not be proven since in fact the bus was not moving. No one could tell which end was front and which the back was.

Solution: Get off the bus. How can anybody get saved on a bus where everybodyís already saved?(and they donít know where the front is) Get out of the salt shaker and quit caring about who gets what seat where.
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1/26/11 2:08 pm


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Post Re: Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus? bradfreeman
doyle wrote:
"Today there exists an opposite discrimination if a woman does not wear the makeup, jewelry, short hair and pants TO CHURCH.


I will confess that, when I see someone dressed like this, I feel like these folks are missing out. I love them and appreciate that part of my heritage and their role in the Kingdom. Certainly, someone's views on clothes shouldn't disqualify them from leadership either way--old-time holiness or progressive.

Quote:
She is automatically assumed to be a long tongued, hateful, mean spirited person.


I've been in Pentecost long enough to know there are those sorts of people in every crowd. There are also some of the most loving and kind folks I know among the Pentecostals.
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1/26/11 5:32 pm


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Post First off... Clint Wills
I am coming into this a little late, and I have not read all of the posts prior to this, so forgive me if I am repeating something.
From my experience the reason that a "classical pentecostal" would be left in the back of the bus, or pushed aside is simple: they are generally less motivated to evangelize. I have not been around it a lot, so my experience is somewhat limited. However, most of the people that I have been around would be the ones turning their nose up at a homeless person walking in the church doors, and taking it upon themselves to "convict" people. I am BY NO MEANS suggesting this is everyone who believes like that. One our best Sunday school teachers would fit this model to a T, and she is the most tender and soft-hearted person you'd ever meet. Even with her, though, there is not an outward focus. She is a fantastic teacher and her students love her, but that is the extent of it. She is a great person, and we need wonderful Sunday School teachers and I will always honor that. However, even "inside the church walls" ministries MUST have an outward focus.
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Post Nick Park
sheepdogandy wrote:

NO, there is no room at the table for these believers who practice conservative standards in dress and conduct.

They will never be elected to state or general office in the Church of God.


At the last General Assembly everyone that was elected to general office appeared to be consevatively dressed to me.

None of the brothers elected appeared to be wearing cosmetics, or earrings, or had purple hair like Jan Crouch.

(In the interests of accuracy I should declare that it's 32 years since I had purple hair, and the holes in my ears closed up long ago since I haven't worn earrings for a similar length of time. The heyday of punk rock seems a long time ago now.)
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1/28/11 6:44 am


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Post Quiet Wyatt
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Post Travis Johnson
Nick Park wrote:
(In the interests of accuracy I should declare that it's 32 years since I had purple hair, and the holes in my ears closed up long ago since I haven't worn earrings for a similar length of time. The heyday of punk rock seems a long time ago now.)


Bring it back! You could rock a mohawk and facial studs as long as you're wearing a suit and tie in an Executive Council meeting couldn't you?!
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Post Nick, I bet that if we met the last time I was in Europe Rafael D Martinez
Nick Park wrote:
sheepdogandy wrote:

NO, there is no room at the table for these believers who practice conservative standards in dress and conduct.

They will never be elected to state or general office in the Church of God.


At the last General Assembly everyone that was elected to general office appeared to be consevatively dressed to me.

None of the brothers elected appeared to be wearing cosmetics, or earrings, or had purple hair like Jan Crouch.

(In the interests of accuracy I should declare that it's 32 years since I had purple hair, and the holes in my ears closed up long ago since I haven't worn earrings for a similar length of time. The heyday of punk rock seems a long time ago now.)


.. in 1982, I would bet you probably had a Bob Geldof thing going.


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Post Re: re: sheepdog Rafael D Martinez
musakman wrote:
You may be the exception to the rule sheepdog.


he is .. and your observation makes a point well.

We have our little rules about people that we don't like reality to rock too much, so we hold fast to them.

We think that if sister Aint has no makeup, hair to her waist and screams like a banshee in tongues, she can't possibly be as grace-oriented as sister Caint with her extensions, fishnet stockinged legs, and lower cut leather bustier as she stands there in church (or vice versa).

That of course is not a good way to look at things. One of our ministry associates, before he met his wife, used to work with in a store where a certain UPC girl with a massive mane of long straight hair and completely virginal and non-mascaraed face had a - shall we say - rather overactive missionary zeal for dating men for less than spiritual reasons.
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Post I emerge from exile to say.............. The strict Constructionis
.........that I have been following this thread with much interest. Some of the UPC brethren are also paying attention. One commented to me the other day, "Will this be US having this discussion in another 10 years if the Lord tarries?" Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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