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Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus?
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Post sheepdogandy
I never address the issue of appearance.

We have general guidelines in our Church Covenant, however we DO NOT DISCRIMINATE!

By the way, I do most enthusiastically endorse the ministry of RDM.

Once I prayed thru about the Yankee part, everything was great. Laughing

Some of the sweetest Christian ladies I know wear makeup, jewelry and pants.

It's the law of love folks.

Spurling was right.
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1/24/11 8:55 pm


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Post re: sheepdog musakman
You may be the exception to the rule sheepdog. Friendly Face
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1/24/11 9:51 pm


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Post Classical Pentecostals revstevef
I think a Classical Pentecostal is one who hold to the Biblical traditions of the church. Someone mentioned the Church of God has become "Charismatic". That label has come to embrace a lot of "crazy", fanatical stuff that happens in the church. Some of this tried to infiltrate the COG, but most older congregations are still mainly traditional, classical pentecostals.

I base this not on "clothesline" tradition, but true pentecostal doctrine and worship. Clothing and apperance styles change with time. I believe most churches could be classified progressive, classical Pentecostals.

We may have sign teams, projectors, powerpoint, contemporary music, etc., but the doctrinal stance has not changed.

We have those who adhere to the strict dress code, and also those who are more casual in there attire. Yet if you came to our service, you would see a more traditional format to our worship.

To me what really matters is if you are winning the lost. Some people like the old time holiness, some a more progressive style. They need that type of church to fit in.

Even though I may not care for those churches who are leaving traditional pentecostal styles, I thank God they are in place. My Dad's church was different than mine, my kids church will be even more different than what we have today. However, as long as the Spirit of God is moving with the same fervor, that what matters to me.

Just on my soapbox,

Steve
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1/24/11 10:28 pm


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Post Classic Pentecostals moved to the back of the bus TnTidings
Brother Doyle, while I do not see change as a bad thing and while I do my very best to change with the change I am having a difficult time with some of the things I see as a part of modernizing the Church. There seems to be an irereverence for sacred and Holy things that are promoted by the Denomination. In the recent Evangel, the official voice of the Church of God, I see an article where there is pictured a COG Bishop, Babtizing converts in the open water. The Preacher is wearing a T shirt and a baseball cap, turned around backwards, while doing a sacred thing as commanded by Jesus himself. He is a wonderful young Leader, a brilliant man of the Word, but, is there any sacred thing left for the Church to do with reverence. Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 10:50 pm


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Post Classic Pentecostals moved to the back of the bus TnTidings
Brother Doyle, while I do not see change as a bad thing and while I do my very best to change with the change I am having a difficult time with some of the things I see as a part of modernizing the Church. There seems to be an irereverence for sacred and Holy things that are promoted by the Denomination. In the recent Evangel, the official voice of the Church of God, I see an article where there is pictured a COG Bishop, Babtizing converts in the open water. The Preacher is wearing a T shirt and a baseball cap, turned around backwards, while doing a sacred thing as commanded by Jesus himself. He is a wonderful young Leader, a brilliant man of the Word, but, is there any sacred thing left for the Church to do with reverence. Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 10:52 pm


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Post ibelieve
If he was wearing a Yankee cap, he should be excommunicated! Twisted Evil Hey, DOC
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1/24/11 10:57 pm


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Post Re: Classical Pentecostals pushed to back of COG bus? bradfreeman
doyle wrote:
Some (a minority) in the Church of God do hold their own Camps and Camp Meeting in order to practice the faith in a environment free of Charismatic excess.


If, by Charismatic excess, you mean tolerating the wearing of pants, makeup and jewelry by women, then I would agree that this is the likely motivation of the ultra-conservatives who are divisive enough to hold a separate camp-meeting. I would, however, tend to believe it is less about freedom (as they are free to wear, or not wear, what they like) as it is about intolerance and making a statement to the powers that be that they don't like the direction the church is headed.

The cure is NOT separate camp meetings. The cure is acceptance and love on non-core issues.

Quote:
When the Charismatic Movement took over the Church of God (and everyone knows that happened) those who retained Classical Pentecostal convictions were moved to the back of the bus."


Perhaps I don't know which specific Charismatic distinctives you are referring to. I have preached at Church of God churches in many states and around the world--I have not seen what I believe to be a Charismatic take-over in those churches. I have seen a trend toward praise/worship music. I have seen a trend away from clothes-line religion. If these are what you mean by a Charismatic take-over then...thank God for the Charismatic influence.
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1/25/11 8:29 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Nope, I'm talking about excess.

Tammy Faye and Jan Crouch excess.

I understand the attitude mentioned, a haughy, prideful behavior that looks down on others. I remember the daughter of a pastor many years ago proudly proclaiming that her hair had NEVER been cut, burned or pulled

She was so very PROUD of that fact.

I get it.

What I am saying is the opposite of that is now in effect.

Those with conservative convictions and practice have been ostricized and those who flaunt their "liberty" have a good riddence attitude.


BTW, they are having Camp Meeting at Macclenny Church of God in Florida.

Wish I could be there, some great men preaching. Very Happy
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1/25/11 9:24 am


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Post Defining Classical as Conservative Bullseye77
I suppose I would be described as "Classical Pentecostal" having used that term at times to describe myself. I think that a better term may be "conservative." My fellowship within the Church of God has been somewhat limited because of me being perceived as conservative. I get a handshake and a "howdy" at state meetings. I am looked upon with disdain by fellow ministers, passed over as someone who is a bit ignorant, not with it, out of the mainstream, etc. Back of the bus? Feels like it.
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1/25/11 10:03 am


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Post Classical vs Charismatic Randy Johnson
I think part of the problem in trying to define Classical Pentecostalism in the context of the COG is the fact that the COG was a Holiness Church before it was a Pentecostal Church. As a result, we mix up the standards of holiness with the practice of Pentecostalism.

If you talk to a Church historian such as Vinson Synan, I think you would find his definition of Classical Pentecostalism to focus more on tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism and "come-outism" [of dead churches and denominations] versus the Charismatic view of tongues as an available gift to all, but not the evidence of Spirit baptism and "stay-putism" [that is, stay in your historic church denomination and try to bring renewal to it].

This was the difference between Classical Pentecostals and first generation Charismatics. The issues regarding apparel and adornment are really Holiness issues, not Pentecostal issues. They seem like Pentecostal issues because of Holiness people who became Pentecostal. Speaking in tongues and manifesting the Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) have nothing to do with clothing, makeup or jewelry, but the issues became muddied by the mixing of Holiness standards with Pentecost.

The Charismatics, even the first generation, didn't have the Holiness standards to shed to begin with. The churches they belonged to were considered liberal, dead, and not really saved by the Holiness people.

Another distinction between the Classical Pentecostal and Charismatic is their view of the working of the Spirit. Classical Pentecostals tended to view the work of the Spirit as something that "came down" or "came upon them"; an almost irresistible takeover of their physical faculties by the Spirit of God. As a result, CPs viewed speaking in tongues as something only the Holy Spirit could "make them do" when He "came on them".

Charismatics, on the other hand, were taught for the most part) that the Holy Spirit already lived within them (either when they were confirmed in liturgical churches or 'saved' in more evangelical churches) and rather than receiving something that needed to come down from heaven on them, they needed to release the Spirit who was already in them and allow Him to manifest Himself in and through them.

Since the Holy Spirit was already in all believers from salvation, then everyone could speak in tongues if they wanted to, and they could do so whenever they wanted to, because the Spirit was always there to give them utterance. From this point of view, the phrase "receiving your prayer language" replaced the old Classical Pentecostal phrase "getting the baptism".
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1/25/11 10:41 am


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Post sheepdogandy
Great post Bro Randy.

Puts it into historical perspective. Very Happy
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1/25/11 1:42 pm


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Post You should be glad aprilmay
If you're forced to the back of the bus. That's the way it's supposed to be. The bible says that you're blessed when people speak all manner of evil against you. Jesus said you will have trouble in this world but be of good cheer I have over come the world. It's a good thing to be last, least, and abased. The whole kingdom of God is built on that principle.

Perhaps the greater issue is when people think they should be preferred instead of someone else. When they think they are entitled to something like sitting on the front of the bus.

Get over it. [/img]
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1/25/11 1:59 pm


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Post Re: Classic Pentecostals moved to the back of the bus Travis Johnson
TnTidings wrote:
Brother Doyle, while I do not see change as a bad thing and while I do my very best to change with the change I am having a difficult time with some of the things I see as a part of modernizing the Church. There seems to be an irereverence for sacred and Holy things that are promoted by the Denomination. In the recent Evangel, the official voice of the Church of God, I see an article where there is pictured a COG Bishop, Babtizing converts in the open water. The Preacher is wearing a T shirt and a baseball cap, turned around backwards, while doing a sacred thing as commanded by Jesus himself. He is a wonderful young Leader, a brilliant man of the Word, but, is there any sacred thing left for the Church to do with reverence.


I'm not sure that I track with you on this. But, I'd certainly make room for people to choose whether or not they feel comfortable with a pastor wearing a ball cap. In the case of the guys being baptized, the older brother came to Christ after his younger brother walked in on him with a gun in his mouth. The last thing on his mind was the degree of reverential attire at the beach.

And, in the context of the discussion in this thread, I'm not exactly sure how that baptizing people with a hat on moves anyone to the back of the bus.

The truth is that our Pentecostal, Holiness heritage calls us to work out our extra-Bibilical Convictions with fear and trembling according to Philippians 2:12-13. So, my holiness roots have caused me to completely abstain from alcohol and tobacco (never had it once in my life). Yet, I've never felt a compulsion to not wear a hat. Nor, have I felt it necessary to lay that burden on anyone else.

I think this discussion should be along the lines of what someone else suggested. And, that is that we should prefer one another. So, the bus we all should seek to develop is one where a diverse expression of preferences drive and ride together in unity and brotherly love, laying down our own personal preferences at the fellowship's edge. I'd dare say that some of the most influential and treasured relationships I have are with people whose ministry persuasion and faith expression is aesthetically much different than mine. We're all necessary. If we all had the same ideas, personalities, expressions, shapes, and styles, we'd be a monotonous bunch.

I say, pull up a seat next to me. The view from the back of the bus is a bit bumpier than it is up front. But, we're also a little more rowdy and festive back here. As such, the fellowship is great! Wink

Much love, brother!
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Post sheepdogandy
To return yet again to Doyle's question.

Will these people ever achieve leadership positions in your denomination?

Would you vote for any of them at General Assembly?
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1/25/11 4:34 pm


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Post NPS39
sheepdogandy wrote:
To return yet again to Doyle's question.

Will these people ever achieve leadership positions in your denomination?

Would you vote for any of them at General Assembly?



I think we have in times past, one of things we've been known for in past years has been continuity in belief and practice. May not be the case presently, as people are learning to find and be themselves rather than conforming to a uniform way of life.

With that said, I think some of our leaders are more conservative than others, none of those in present leadership in my opinion would be considered excessive. I think most of our state and international leaders remain rather traditional, they continue to hold a strong devotion to our doctrine and structure.

Will we elect someone as strong in their belief as Wade Horton was? Probably not, but who knows, I think God will raise up who we need when we need them.
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Post Hey travis aprilmay
If you're going to reference my post then man up and quote me or at least cite me.

And I better not show up in some sermon at your church without proper annotation either. Lol
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Post Re: Hey travis Travis Johnson
aprilmay wrote:
If you're going to reference my post then man up and quote me or at least incite me.


There, I fixed it for you. Wink
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Post Cite insight excite aprilmay
Whatever. Just get on the back of the bus. Lol Acts Enthusiast
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1/25/11 9:30 pm


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Post Cojak
I have read this with interest, since I find myself in the middle. sometimes I do not know where I fit. I have found myself more comfortable in a Methodist church at times and it hurts.

Every COG we visit my wife feels she is out of place if she sees all dresses on the ladies. She then knows she is wrong. Funny isn't it, I as a man don't have to worry about that. Jeans or a suit is accepted for men. I know that is a personal problem, but we try to do some research if possible before we visit because she doesn't want to offend anyone. (or be offended).
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1/25/11 9:36 pm


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Post Re: Cite insight excite Travis Johnson
aprilmay wrote:
Whatever. Just get on the back of the bus. Lol


"IN the back of the bus."

What do you think this is? A 3rd world country or something?
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