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Calif AB appoints woman as D. O: Violation or progress?
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Post Omega
The point is, why do we come together every two years as a General Council and General Assembly, if men on an individual basis can bypass the will of the GA? How can any one man or committee just throw out the will of the GA? Why even show up in two years if it evidently means nothing? Very disappointed here. Friendly Face
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1/13/11 8:47 pm


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Post Re: In order to answer the thread question Omega
Maverick_Iceman wrote:
Dean Steenburgh wrote:


I look forward to the day when women will serve in much higher offices as respected leaders!


Colonel Nathan Jessup agrees with this sentiment.


It may seem agreeable right now, but I wonder how agreeable we would be if our bylaws are circumvented in something we don't agree with?

If it can be circumvented in one area, it can be in others. How comforting it is to know that the will of the GA can be overturned because of personal opinions. Embarassed
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1/14/11 10:41 am


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Post Dean know as much about this as he does.... Phil Akin
football.
I am with you 100% Gerald!!! I am totally against this, period. I am getting tired of some in leadership that think the Minutes have nothing to do with them.

To answer Bro. Bob's question, they have changed the districts around, but I know of 2 off the top of my head that are OB's: Danny Maynard and Rod Ritchie.
I don't know how many churches are in the new West L.A. district.
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1/14/11 11:17 am


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Post Bro Bob
Thank you for the answer Bro Akin. That sums it up for me, I guess that's all I need to know.

Now I am going to have to talk to God about it, and since he already knows all my thoughts, (and much of the Church of God know also), this will be a lot of listening.

The hard part will be preparing myself for his instruction. I'm not looking forward to it. I am getting tired of making excuses for my church, and he seems to be tired of hearing it.

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1/14/11 11:55 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Phil Akin wrote:
Quote:
I am with you 100% Gerald!!! I am totally against this, period. I am getting tired of some in leadership that think the Minutes have nothing to do with them.


Maybe this is something you should talk with the leadership about rather than accusing the leadership of circumventing the minutes which are actually the bylaws.

I'm sure AB Darnell had a justified reason for his selection & it's not our place to question his reasoning if it doesn't effect our local ministry.



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1/14/11 2:14 pm


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Post Gerald Abreu
Dean,

MHO, is that until the GA says this is proper it shouldn't be done. Personally, I'm not against SW or her leadership. But if you or I went against the GA how long would we maintain our credentials? In my case, at least, I don't think it would take long. I am unclear about the re-districting but I didn't take Phil's post as an attack only as being disappointed that our leaders can circumvent our bylaws, if indeed, that is the case. Then what is the point?
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1/14/11 4:34 pm


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Post Omega
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Phil Akin wrote:
Quote:
I am with you 100% Gerald!!! I am totally against this, period. I am getting tired of some in leadership that think the Minutes have nothing to do with them.


Maybe this is something you should talk with the leadership about rather than accusing the leadership of circumventing the minutes which are actually the bylaws.

I'm sure AB Darnell had a justified reason for his selection & it's not our place to question his reasoning if it doesn't effect our local ministry.



.


You two guys need to cool it. No matter how you feel about the issue, you are brothers first. You are NOT COG first or left or right of the issue first. You are brothers is Christ first. So take a deep breath and do a refreshing thing by taking a step back and being civil. You never know, you might see each other in a meeting somewhere! Laughing
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1/14/11 5:05 pm


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Post what about Irvine!!!! Phil Akin
Dean, was on here giving his opinion about the Exec. Committee going against the minutes in allowing J. Franklin to take the property and pastor in 2 denominations, it is the same premise. The minutes were violated in both cases. One he liked and one he didn't. I dislike both!!! Friendly Face
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1/14/11 5:39 pm


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Post Bro Bob
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Simply said, this is indicative of the things that feed the distrust that exists within our fellowship. We have a trust and integrity problem.

I am of the opinion that it is just an integrity problem. As long as pastors who reject the authority of the body are seen as bold, innovative and progressive, and are appointed as ABs, who then directly violate the will of the General Council / Assembly, and are then elected by that same General Council to the IEC, it is foolish to expect behavior to change. It feeds on itself. There are tares in our wheat, and we are not sorting it out.

I thought this was the administration that saw it as a major concern that trust be restored.

How is that going so far?
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1/14/11 5:47 pm


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Post Gerald Abreu
Bro Bob wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Simply said, this is indicative of the things that feed the distrust that exists within our fellowship. We have a trust and integrity problem.

I am of the opinion that it is just an integrity problem. As long as pastors who reject the authority of the body are seen as bold, innovative and progressive, and are appointed as ABs, who then directly violate the will of the General Council / Assembly, and are then elected by that same General Council to the IEC, it is foolish to expect behavior to change. It feeds on itself. There are tares in our wheat, and we are not sorting it out.

I thought this was the administration that saw it as a major concern that trust be restored.

How is that going so far?


Good point.
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1/14/11 7:46 pm


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Post oldschooler
legal? Probably
Wise? No
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1/14/11 9:07 pm


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Post Well according to AB Darnell Dean Steenburgh
To whom I spoke with this afternoon, he had other options but the OB's in relation to that district requested not to serve due to other matters. There are only 4 churches on the district & Sue is the Senior Pastor of one of those 4. So AB Darnell ran the idea by the EC & they agreed with his decision ...Period!

Besides that, nowhere does it say a woman can't serve as D.O. in the minutes. Just because the minutes are gender sensitive doesn't mean it excludes women from serving. The EC signed off on this decision & that my friends is where it will stand, if you don't like it you can always offer your opinion to higher sources other than a talk board. If an Ordained Minister is ready to serve, so be it, even if it's a woman!

This particular subject is not one to hang your hat on when you consider we have other concerns that rile us as a majority.

And Phil, for your information I was upset at the notion of allowing a double standard with the Irvine situation hence why I questioned so many of the EC decisions, but this is not any where equal to that event. I had strong support of my disagreements from former members of the EC as well as members who currently serve on the EC. Actually it was Acts2grind who had the bigger argument, I merely agreed with our former AB & our former State Council.

Time to let this subject become part of our history. We should embrace such decisions that would allow women to become involved in higher levels of our leadership. Who knows, one day we might elect a woman to serve as PB. Wink






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1/14/11 9:21 pm


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Post In the history of the Church of God.... Phil Akin
how many women have been District Overseers? To my knowledge it has never happened before. It has always been against the minutes of the church. If it wasn't why did they bring it up at the GA? Why haven't they already done this before? It doesn't make any difference if Bro. Darnell was given permission from the E.C., none of them have the right to override the GA.
I see the Church of God becoming like the Obama Administration. The people didn't want Obamacare, but the democrats said you're getting away. The GA just voted in July that women could not be OB's and placed in Leadership, but the current administration said you're getting it away.

There are some things that can be done about this and I am praying about what my next step is.


Last edited by Phil Akin on 1/15/11 8:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/15/11 10:59 am


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Post Gerald Abreu
Dean,

thanks for the update. Man I need some of your mojo with the AB Cool
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1/15/11 11:06 am


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Post Bro Bob
Quote:
... he had other options...

Yes he did, just like every other AB that went before him.

Quote:
... but the OB's in relation to that district requested not to serve due to other matters. There are only 4 churches on the district & Sue is the Senior Pastor of one of those 4. So AB Darnell ran the idea by the EC & they agreed with his decision ...Period!

Dean, that isn't a period, it is an exclamation mark, and you used it appropriately.

Quote:

Besides that, nowhere does it say a woman can't serve as D.O. in the minutes.

You are correct, it does not say that, directly. Neither does it say directly that a woman cannot serve as AB, IEC member, nor PB. And the exact same wall you tear down to get her in as District Overseer is the wall between her and all those others. NO difference.

The transitive property proves that if A > B, and B > C, then A > C.

What the MINUTES do say, and what was overwhelmingly re-affirmed at this past assembly, is that women cannot be Ordained Bishops.

Of the three classifications of credentials, only Ordained Bishops have included in their Rights and Authorities the office of District Overseer. The MINUTES do not say women cannot be ABs, or members of the IEC, or Presiding Bishop. But they do list those rights exclusively under the Rights and Authorities of the Ordained Bishop.

If what you say is true, Dean, then half this last General Assembly was un-necessary. If any female minister can be a District Overseer, then she can already be a State Overseer or the General Overseer.

IF your interpretation can hold water, Dean, then we can eliminate the General Assembly by electing a woman as Presiding Bishop, who cannot be on the floor and conduct business during a general council session! (exclamation point)
................

There are other things she CAN do, that to my knowledge have yet to be done.

You do not have to be an OB to be a state youth director, state evangelism director, or serve on the state world missions board. (They even accept laymen at world missions.)
..................

It makes no difference what the MINUTES say, unless your state office has the integrity to abide by them. Unless the IEC has the integrity to abide by them. Unless the pastor, errantly appointed, proves her integrity by refusing to be the guinea pig for this scheme being imposed upon the body by those with an "agenda".

Is there even one Stephen among the brethren willing to force this group to put heir hands to their ears? Anyone willing to die today?

I would bring the charge, but under the rules I do not have standing.

So Dean, please. Please stop saying that there is some sneaky subtle end run back door legal trick that is at work. The MINUTES are not vague. The body was not inconclusive. I would much rather deal with a Lee Roy Brown, who is at least honest enough to say:

Quote:
So I ask who is going to stop us? The AB who praises what we are doing? The former ABís who have praised what we are doing? The General and First General who have spoken at our church for a regional leadership meeting and praised what we are doing? Certainly the one lone ranger board member couldnít stop what we are doing. The man told me he could and he would. It reminded me a lot of you. You know what I told him????


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1/15/11 1:07 pm


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Post Phil Dean Steenburgh
Akin said:
Quote:
There are some things that can be done about this and I am praying about what my next step is.


I suggest you contact your leadership first if you have such leanings as to accuse the AB of wrong doing.
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1/15/11 9:17 pm


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Post Gerald, Dean Steenburgh
I have no mojo with the AB, in fact the reason I called him had nothing to do with this matter at all, but at the end of the call he responded to my inquiry about Dr. Webb.

I'm just saying that if our AB has the green light from the EC & if the minutes don't don't hinder a woman from serving as D.O., then we can move on ...right???

To hear Phil Akin & whoever Bro. Bob is, you would think that the CoG was about to be invaded by women in every leadership position. I remember when Phil compared the notion of accepting homosexuals as ministers to that of accepting women as Ordained Bishops. The fear in this denomination when it comes to women serving in leadership is mind numbing. Apparently we are the only mainline pentecostal denomination that is living according to the actual word of God & all others are in violation to the word of God, to hear certain opinions be thrown around without regard of the hurt being caused.
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1/15/11 9:28 pm


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Post Gerald Abreu
Dean,

I'm only messing with ya.

Phil,

I'm as disappointed with this as are you. I don't have a problem with women in ministry. My wife does a lot of ministry. I don't have a problem with SW. I appreciate her work. Me, you and Dean all work with her here in CA. I have a problem with how this appears to be something against the GA.

Have a great Sunday guys.
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1/16/11 12:27 am


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Tom wrote:
Quote:
As I said before...I applaud the courage exhibited by AB Darnell. Just don't want it to be seen as another bureaucratic end run. This stuff hurts us.


I have spoken with AB Darnell & he is not the 'end run' kind of guy who will try to sneak one past the guards. If Steve Darnell wanted to do something he would simply do it with the backing of the powers to be and then move on.

If you or I were in his shoes what would we do? The district in question is a small district that has limited O.B.'s & according to the AB they have not been able to serve, for various reasons as the D.O.

Dr. Sue Webb was ready to serve as she has served this state in various ways & she isn't the kind of person who would engage in some kind of Tom Foolery (sorry Tom, couldn't pass it up) in order to advance the role of women in the CoG. In fact if you were to tell her that she is the only woman D. O. in the whole nation she would get a big laugh out of it & it would then become a moot point on her behalf. She would be impressed with the honor for about as long as it would take her to laugh off the notion or facts.

It's just not a big deal & with all the factors involved it serves to reason why this came together like it did. The timing after this previous GA is nothing more than coincidence. Let's applaud her appointment & enjoy our own personal appointments which have been ordered by God ...just like her's have. Shocked Shocked Shocked



.
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1/16/11 11:47 am


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Post delete Phil Akin
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Last edited by Phil Akin on 1/18/11 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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1/16/11 6:52 pm


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