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To poster "Isa 58:12": Regarding Galatians
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Post Let me you guys some questions, trying to stir you all up. Isa 58:12
Let’s start @ the beginning with some basic facts. Anti-Torah ministers favorite book is the Book of Galatians. There are some parts of the Book that seem to do away with G-ds Law. & at 1st glance, it seems that people are right.

Like Paul says things like, that the Law is a curse, or a temporary school master, & those who are under the “works” of the Law are cursed. & I am noooo stranger to that here Laughing ROFL

& here are my questions……

1. Who is Paul?
2. What did people say about him?
3. What did Paul say about himself?
4. Who was the Book of Galatians written to?
5. What is Paul “really” saying in the Book of Galatians?
6. Did Paul contradict what Y’shua was saying?
7. & if he was, who is right?

All of these questions have been talked on here in different threads by people, but let’s put it all together here. These are easy keys to the Book of Galatians
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12/15/10 11:03 am


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Post Isa 58:12
OOOkaaaaay, I guess my only problem is “who do I answer first?”……. LOL Rolling Eyes ROFL

Well I guess I’ll just start with what kind of a man Paul was, Acts 22:3: I am a man which is a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilcia, yet brought up in this city @ the feet of Gamaliel, & TAUGHT ACCORDING TO THE PERFECT MANNER OF THE TORAH of our fathers, & was zealous towards G-d, as you all are this day.

Rabbi Paul was taught by Gamaliel who was a leader in the Sanhedrin, the main leader, rabbi. & Paul “was” taught according to the Perfect manner of the Torah & showed the zeal & knowledge of Torah. & probably according to Gal 1:14 he might have been equal to Gamaliel, I don’t know.

Was Paul a nice fellow? Why did Paul kill Stephen in Acts 7:54-60? Why did Paul persecute the churches? Because, as is “taught” today that the church was freed from Torah & Paul did not like that, is that True? Shocked

Acts 8:1-3: & Saul was consenting (Suneudokon: gladly consenting, or being pleased with his murder) unto his death Confused . & @ that time there was great persecution “against” the church which was @ Jerusalem; & they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea & Samaria, except the apostles.

2: & devout men carried Stephen to his burial, & made great lamentation over him. 3: As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, & hailing men & women committed them to prison.

Acts 9:1-2: & Saul. Paul yet breathing out threatenings & slaughter “against” the “disciples” of Adonai, went unto the high priest. 2: & desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found “any of this Way”, whether they were men or women, he might bring them to “bound” unto Jerusalem.

Let me ask you guys this question: What do you think made Paul, a pharisee (Phil 3:6) so mad @ “believers”, the disciples of Adonai (9:1)? I think when we read about what Paul was, knowing he was a pharisee, legalistic, keeping man made traditions, persecuting the “DISCIPLES” of Adonai, it sheds some Light on the matter. I believe the “Disciples” of Adonai were preaching “against” the legalism of the religious leaders of that day. If not, why all the persecution?

That’s what Paul knew, that’s why “if” he found any of that Way, he would bound them to Jerusalem Acts 9:2. Because think about it (& look @ people today) to go & teach against the religious leaders, pharisees, & sadducees would be going against Paul himself, & he got kind of irritated @ that.

Then he had a little “visitation” in Acts 9:3-7 Very Happy . I see Paul knowing 2 things 1. Torah & 2. finally found out who Y’shua was in verse 5 Very Happy . He knew Y’shua from revelation, not out of some book or whatever. He knew Torah, & prophets, he knew everything he needed to know about Y’shua. Because the Torah spoke of him John 5:46-47.


Hold on, more to come….
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12/16/10 11:13 pm


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Post Ok, 1 @ a time please.... LOL Isa 58:12
The religion that Paul was deeply in was Judaism, but it wasn’t “Biblical” Judaism. It was the “man made” version of Torah obedience. But, like I said above, just as Y’shua was doing, the “disciples of Adonai” were speaking against the pharisees, sadducees, & scribes. & for the “disciples” to preach & teach “against” the religious leaders was going against Paul himself Shocked .

After Paul’s little “visitation” & “revelation” (not from man) he became an “apostle”, Gal 1:1:

Paul, an apostle, neither of men, but by Y’shua Messiah, & YHVH the Father, who raised Him from the “dead”. The pharisees didn't "believe" in the Resurrection Acts 23:6. Which proves Paul was going "against" the religious leaders of his day after his encounter with Adonai & his "eye's" were opend.

What is an “apostle” Strongs 652 from N.T.649: A delegate, specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Messiah (with miraculous powers)

N.T. 649: Set apart, i e (by implication) to send out (properly, on a mission) literally or figuratively.

Paul was sent as a delegate to “represent” Y’shua, what did that look like, a Messiah with NO Torah? No, 1 Cor 11:1: Be you followers of “me”, even as I also am of Messiah. Messiah walked & taught only Torah.

I think its pretty awesome Wink , because the same word for “apostle” in the greek is the same Hebrew word shaliach, from the root word shalach. Its awesome because Moshe was a shaliach.

Ex 7:16; & you shall say unto him, the G-d of the Hebrews, has “sent” (shaliach) me unto You….

Isaiah was a “shaliach” Isa 6:2. In fact, every priest & prophet of the O.T. was a “shaliach”, or “sent one. & this was the “same Way” N.T. the apostles, shaliach’s were. They were only allowed to speak what they were told. Jonah 3:1-4 is a Perfect example.

1: & the Word of Adonai came to Jonah the 2nd time saying, Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city & preach unto it the preaching that “I” bid you. (repentance) 3…

4: … Yet 40 days & Nineveh shall be overthrown (“if” no repentance, by a Divine Message)

Who told these “shaliach’s” to speak, & what was the Message?

1 Cor 2:12-13: Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit of G-d; That we might know the things that are freely given to us. 13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which “mans wisdom teaches”, but which the Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit) speaks; comparing “Spiritual” things (Torah Rom 7:14) with Spiritual (Rom 8)

It was only the Ruach HaKodesh that Instructed the shaliach what to say. & what was the Ruach of Elohim to speak?

John 16:13: Howbeit when He, the Spirit of “Truth”, is come, He will guide you into ALL Truths (Torah Ps 119:160), for He shall NOT speak of Himself; “but” whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: & He will show you things to come Wink .

What things does the Ruach hear that’s not of Himself? He hears & speaks the Word, what Word, & what did the Word say while He was on the earth?

Matt 5:17: Think not that I Am come to “destroy” the Law, Torah, or thr prophets, I Am not come to "destroy", but to fulfill (complete) & I have WAY to many Scriptures of what was fulfilled Laughing

So now in closing to “What kind of man was Paul”, He was a Jewish rabbi taught & trained by Gamaliel who was one of the greatest rabbi’s.

He was so zealous of & for the Torah & never had anyone teach him different, especially after his visitation…..

Only the Ruach taught Paul Very Happy . The Ruach only speaks what is given to Him by our Creator who never changes Mal 3:6. & Paul only spoke what was given to him….
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12/18/10 11:06 pm


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Post Isa 58:12
I have some more stuff guys, but I wanted to hear your thoughts so far Very Happy

Shalom
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12/20/10 7:58 pm


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Post Isa 58:12
Alright guys, how about what did other people say about Paul? Acts 21:17-11:

& when we were come to Jerusalem, the "brethren" received us gladly. & the day following, Paul went in with us to James, & all the elders were present.

& when he had saluted them, he declared particulary whwt "things" Ya, G-d had wrouht among the gentiles by his ministry.

& when they heard it, they Glorified G-d, & said to him, you see brother how many thousands of Jews there are which "believe"; & they are all zealous for the Torah.

Vs 21: & they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews which are among the gentiles to forsake Moshe, saying that they ought not circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Acts 17:22-24:

What is it therefore, the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that you are come.

Do therefore this that we say to you: we have 4 men which have a vow on them; them take & purify yourself with them, & be @ charges with them, that they may shave their own heads: & all may know of those things, whereof they were informed concering you, are nothing, BUT THAT YOU YOURSELF ALSO WALK ORDERLY, 7 KEEP THE TORAH.

See guys, the Jerusalem councel didn't think Paul was against the Torah

"But" if he was against the Torah, this would have been the perfect time to pin him down to it.

Acts 21:26:

Then Paul took the men, & the next day purifying himself with them entered into the Temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, untill that an offering should be offered for eveyone of them.

Check it out Very Happy , he is waiting for an offering to be made for him. This is not anti-Torah, its TOTALLY Torah Very Happy
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12/22/10 5:41 am


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Post Another reason Paul in Gal is not speaking of Torah Isa 58:12
badly Very Happy

Look @ how Paul veiws himself, Acts 25:8:

While he answered for himself, neither against the Torah of the Jews, neither against the Temple, nor yet against caesar, have I offended anything @ all.

Acts 28:17:

& it came to pass, after 3 days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: & when they were come, toghether, he said to them, men & brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or thr customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisioner from Jerusalem into the hands of the romans.

Paul himself said he never offended the Torah. Very Happy
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Post Randy Johnson
No one here is saying the Torah is bad. The law is good if one uses it properly. The law is not made for the righteous, and who are the righteous? Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, they are the righteous, and the Law is not for them.
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12/23/10 6:42 am


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Post Isa 58:12
Randy Johnson wrote:
No one here is saying the Torah is bad. The law is good if one uses it properly. The law is not made for the righteous, and who are the righteous? Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, they are the righteous, and the Law is not for them.


Every christian I have ever talked to has always pulled out Galatians to validate themselves for not keeping Torah. As I have been showing people, Paul is not saying that @ all.

& your right pastor, the believer is made Righteous in Messiah, but do you believe that the individual that has come to Messiah doesn't have to obey G-ds Commandments?

Because the "Law" points out sin, what is Right & what is wrong. What is Holy, what is unholy, what is on, what is off. Its Light or its dark. When you got saved, did G-d reveal all @ once all of that & now you don't have to obey?

Because you would be a 1st Laughing even Y'shua had to keep Torah, & every apostle of the N.T.......... but not now?

Just throwing some things out there to think about my friend Very Happy
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Post Randy Johnson
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Randy Johnson wrote:
No one here is saying the Torah is bad. The law is good if one uses it properly. The law is not made for the righteous, and who are the righteous? Those who place their faith in Jesus Christ, they are the righteous, and the Law is not for them.


Every christian I have ever talked to has always pulled out Galatians to validate themselves for not keeping Torah. As I have been showing people, Paul is not saying that @ all.

& your right pastor, the believer is made Righteous in Messiah, but do you believe that the individual that has come to Messiah doesn't have to obey G-ds Commandments?

Because the "Law" points out sin, what is Right & what is wrong. What is Holy, what is unholy, what is on, what is off. Its Light or its dark. When you got saved, did G-d reveal all @ once all of that & now you don't have to obey?

Because you would be a 1st Laughing even Y'shua had to keep Torah, & every apostle of the N.T.......... but not now?

Just throwing some things out there to think about my friend Very Happy


The moral laws, absolutely yes. (Ten Commandments)

The ceremonial laws? No. (Circumcision, feasts)

The civil laws? No. (Stoning adulteresses, laws involving livestock)
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12/25/10 8:13 pm


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Post Isa 58:12
[quote="Randy
Quote:
The moral laws, absolutely yes. (Ten Commandments)


Pastor randy, the Law was written on the same 2 stones as the 10 were Ex 24:12. & they were written on both sides Ex 32:15.

Quote:
The ceremonial laws? No. (Circumcision, feasts)


Circumcision is an everlasting Covenant & a sign Gen 17. & the Feasts are our Creators, & they are Appointed times for the believer, & 3 are not "fulfilled" yet Very Happy .

Quote:
The civil laws? No. (Stoning adulteresses, laws involving livestock)


There are more to do with the civil laws than just stoning. & about the livestock, why would G-d remove those? & what does any of this have to do with Galatians? Laughing

I have more stuff to pull out on Galatians, probably tomorrow Wink
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Post So guys Isa 58:12
after all I have presented, I want to throw out some questions to you guys. What was Paul really saying in Galatians?

Have we really understood what we have read? Or is it possible that we have not fully understood the words of Paul, & that it is possible this has brought “confusion” to the Body of Messiah?

Because the small amount of “DNA” Jewish people coming the Faith in Messiah since Christianity is something to consider. Has “Christianity” preached “replacement theology” & Paul’s writings & his writings in the Book of Galatians to long, that there is no more Torah & the Jews?

Because maybe, just maybe we have misunderstood Paul’s writings as I have shown everybody something’s in Galatians that have been incorrect. 2 Pet 3:15-17:

15. & account that the long sufferings of our Messiah is Salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the Wisdom given unto him has written unto you;

16. As also in all his letters, “epistles” speaking in them of these things; in which something’s hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned & unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17. You therefore beloved seeing you know these “things” before, beware lest you also being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

If Peter thought Paul’s writings were too hard, maybe we have missed something’s

When we read Paul’s writings we have to remember they were letters to the churches. Paul had no idea he was writing Biblical Texts. As I have shown you, Torah & the prophets were the only thing written & the only thing Paul spoke from.
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Post Isa 58:12
Did Paul preach & teach against (contradict) Y’shua & what He said in Matt 5:17-19?

17. Think not that I AM (Yahveh) come to destroy the Law or the prophets, I Am not come to destroy, but to fulfill, or complete in the greek word pleroo. (& I have too many Scriptures to show you what He fulfilled)

18. For verily I say unto you, till Heaven & earth pass, one Aleph, (Jot) or Tav (Tittle) shall in NO wise PASS from the Law till ALL be fulfilled.

19. Whosoever therefore shall “break” on of these least Commandments, & shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do & teach them, the same shall be called GREAT in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Luke 10:25-28:

25. & behold, a certain lawyer stood up & tempted Him saying, Master, what shall I “do” to inherit Eternal Life?

26. He said unto him, what is written in the Torah, Law? How do you read it?

27. & he answering said, You shall Love Adonai “your” G-d with all your heart & all your soul, & with all your strength, & with all your mind: & your neighbor as yourself.

28. & He said unto him, you have answered RIGHT, “this” you do, & you shall live.

Luke 16:16-17

16. The Torah, Law & the prophets were until John: since that time the Kingdom of G-d is preached, & every man presses into it.

17. & it is easier for Heaven & earth to pass, THAN one Tittle to pass from the Torah, Law.

Paul, using Torah principals in 2 Cor 13:1 said: …. In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses, shall Every Word be established. Y’shua used 2 witnesses in Luke 16, Torah & the prophets…

This is what I have been saying ever since I have been here, if there was going to be a “change” or a brand “new” religion, these small examples would have been a great place to mention it. But Messiah or Paul never did, & Messiah had plenty of time to say something, but never did.

So again guys, I ask the question: Did Paul contradict Y’shua’s teachings, & if so, who is right?
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Post Who GAVE the Torah guys? Isa 58:12
Ex 24:12:& Adonai said to Moshe, Come up to Me into the Mount, & be there: & I will give you tables of stone, & a Law, & Commandments which I HAVE WRITTEN; that you may teach them.

Ex 31:18: & He gave to Moshe when He had made an end of communing with him on Mount Sinai 2 tables of Testimony, (Covenant) tables of stone, WRITTEN WITH THE FINGER OF G-D.

Deut 9:10: & Adonai delivered to me 2 tables of stone WRITTEN WITH THE FINGER OF G-D….

Lev 10:11: & that you may teach the “children of Y’sraelALL the Statutes which Adonai has SPOKEN to them by the hand of Moshe.

Neh 10:29: They clave to their brethren, their nobles, & entered into a curse, & into an Oath, to WALK in “G-d’s Law, Torah”, which was given by Moshe the servant of G-d, & to observe & do all the Commandments of Adonai our G-d, & His Judgments & His Statutes.

So it was our Creator who wrote the Torah, Law & gave it to Moshe to give to the “children of Y’srael”, the family we are grafted into (Rom 11:17) with all the Blessings, Covenants, Laws Rom 9:4. 22 times in the Scriptures G-d tells us that the “things” in the Torah are for a Statute Forever.

Messiah Y’shua said in John 6:38: For I came down from Heaven, NOT TO DO MY OWN WILL, but the WILL of Him that sent Me.

John 8:26-28: I have many things to tell say & to Judge of you: but He that sent Me is True; & I speak to the world those “things” which I have “heard” of Him. 27…..

28. Then said Y’shua to them, When you have lifted up the Son of man, then shall you know that I AM He, & that I do NOTHING of Myself; but as My Father has taught Me, I speak THESE “THINGS” (Torah)

So what I have been trying to show you guys since I have been here is that “if” Paul contradicted Y’shua & discarded everything He said about the Torah. Then we would also have to believe that Paul contradicted the direct Statements of our Creator.

Is that right? Because if it is guys, we have to throw out all of the letters Paul wrote, because they are heretical & against Elohim & against Y’shua.

But I believe like the Scriptures teach, & as I have shown you all that we have lost a lot of Truths due to replacement theology, miss-transliterations, denominationalism, etc. & because of that we have lost the True meanings of Paul’s letters to the churches.

I believe Paul never taught against the Torah. As Peter has said; We have twisted Paul’s writings to our own destruction. I believe, as I have shown you in the Scriptures that Paul taught against the traditions of man & the pagan practices coming into the Faith of Y’shua.

So does anyone have a comment on anything presented on the Book of Galatians now? I Praise Adonai for His Truths Very Happy


[
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12/29/10 11:18 pm


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Post Isa 58:12
Does anybody have anything to say before I go on, about Torah, Pauls view on Torah, did he go against Y'shua & Torah etc?
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Post Hey Isa 58:12
Where are all the people that used to bring up Galatians to me all the time from them not having to keep the Torah, Law anymore?

Has Adonai shown you guys somethings you never saw before? Maybe you guys are re-thinking the Book of Galatians, maybe? & thats awesome Very Happy

Because I have more things to write, but I think Adonai wants me to go in kind of another direction with this thread using Gen 3. Still in prayer about it, also in prayer to do it here or in another thread.

But it goes with the "therory" of the incorrect teachings of Galatians & looks @ where we are @ today without Torah.

But I really want to know what you all think..... Shalom
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Post Hopefully & prayerfully Isa 58:12
I will have a conversation on this part LOL Laughing

Another fact to consider in the Book of Galatians to why Paul is not speaking against Torah & it is for believers is found in the beginning of the Torah in Gen 3. This is after Adam & Eve sinned in the garden what happened?

Gen 3:17-19: & unto Adam He said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, & has eaten from the Tree of which I Commanded you saying, You shall not eat of it: cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life.

18: Both “thornes” & “thistles” shall it bring forth to you; & you shall eat the herb of the field.

19: In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return to the ground; for out of it was you taken: for dust you are, & to dust sahll you return.

Adam sinned, Eve sinned, the serpent sinned right? Did the ground sin guys, what did the ground do & if so why?
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Post Isa 58:12
Well lets go back a little farther to Gen 1:26: & Elohim said: Let us make man in our own Image, after our Own likeness : & let them have “DOMINION” over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, & over the cattle, & over all the earth, & over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

28: Elohim said to them, Be fruitful & multiply, & “replenish” the earth, & "subdue" it: & have DOMINION over the fish of the sea, & over the birds of the air, & over every living thing that moves on the earth.

Wow, the Creator of EVERYTHING put us in charge over everything, gave us dominion over the earth. Thats a big responsablity & Adam & Eve sinned, & the earth (ground) was cursed. They broke “1” Commandment, which by the Way was a Dietary Law…. & the ground, the earth was cursed

Lev 20:22; You shall therefore keep all My Statutes, & all My Judgments, (In My Torah) & do them: that the “land” whither I bring you to dwell therein, SPUE you out

Isa 24:4-6: The earth mourns & fades away, the world languishes & fades away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

5: The “earth” (land, our dominion) also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof: because they have transgressed the “Laws”, changed the Ordinance, broken the Everlasting Covenant.

6: Therefore has the “curse”, the “all-h” devoured the “earth”.

That will preach, the curse, the all-h has devoured the earth & the look @ the US for not keeping Torah. With all the earth catastrophies looks like were getting SUPED out. Kind of like when Messiah comes like in the days of Noach were…. “violence” of ham-s was in the earth…

"...all-h means "the curse" in Hebrew. There are two Hebrew words for curse. One is "kelalah" (singular) kelalot (plural), which is the general noun. The other is "ha all-h" or "the all-h" used only in conjunction with Israel breaking Torah, or partaking in Torah violation, which according to Hebrew
tradition brings one into a cursed state. A fascinating one is Daniel 9:11, where Daniel excuses YHWH, who is said to allow the all-h (The Curse) to
come upon Israel for her sin and transgression. Saddam Hussein's hanging was also interesting, as both he and his executioners cursed each other in the name of all-h just before his death..."

This kind of puts a whole new Light, or look @ things with the preaching & teaching of the Book of Galatians that Paul is against Torah for believers......

Something to think about fellas
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1/5/11 12:47 am


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Post Isa 58:12
Where are all my Galatians people? What I just gave you guys was hugh. The sages say that the Torah is what holds the earth together & with out the Torah the earth would implode.

You guys talk about when His Kingdom comes right? Well let me ask you guys the question: Is it a kingdom of anarchey, or is it a Kingdom of Laws?

How about it guys?
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Post Isa 58:12
Well, I'm sad to see this come down as I wasn't finished, but Adonai be Blessed & Praised for the Truths that came out. Thanks Tom for the discussion.

Now with Galatians exposed, are you guys still going to preach Galatians the way it always has been, a Torahless gospel

Thanks doyle for this time on your board & thanks for all who partcipated in this thread & others.

Shalom Very Happy
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