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To poster "Isa 58:12": Regarding Galatians
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Post Isa 58:12
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:

I have shown you that the Book of Galatians speaks to the legalism of the "men of G-d" @ that time which was the rabbis, not Torah, the Law of Moshe, which is the Law of Adonai Luke 2:23.


You have not shown that by any standard or principle of sound exegesis.

As I said, you leap to conclusions on the back of unrelated topical proof-texting which have nothing to do with determining contextual meaning or understanding. And there is no way to get to consider that reality even broadly.

This has turned into a "Rain Man" debate.

Topic: Let's talk about Judaizers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: Jesus hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but Paul never mentions Pharisees
Charlie Babbit: John the Baptist hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but these appear to be believers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: 613...definitely 613...613 definitely
Topic: Toothpics?
Charlie Babbit: No... 613...definitely...
Topic: 613 Laws??
Charlie Babbit: 613 Pharisees in Galatia...definitely Pharisees...proof definitely proof...Rain Man
Topic: Uh.....OK
Very Happy


Dude, really? Tom maybe you can break Galatians down for me. What is the purpose of the "letter" & is it referring to Torah in a bad way?
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Post Randy Johnson
[quote="Isa 58:12"]
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:

I have shown you that the Book of Galatians speaks to the legalism of the "men of G-d" @ that time which was the rabbis, not Torah, the Law of Moshe, which is the Law of Adonai Luke 2:23.


You have not shown that by any standard or principle of sound exegesis.

As I said, you leap to conclusions on the back of unrelated topical proof-texting which have nothing to do with determining contextual meaning or understanding. And there is no way to get to consider that reality even broadly.

This has turned into a "Rain Man" debate.

Topic: Let's talk about Judaizers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: Jesus hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but Paul never mentions Pharisees
Charlie Babbit: John the Baptist hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but these appear to be believers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: 613...definitely 613...613 definitely
Topic: Toothpics?
Charlie Babbit: No... 613...definitely...
Topic: 613 Laws??
Charlie Babbit: 613 Pharisees in Galatia...definitely Pharisees...proof definitely proof...Rain Man
Topic: Uh.....OK
Very Happy


Isa wrote:
Dude, really?


Yes, really really.
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Post bradfreeman
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:

I have shown you that the Book of Galatians speaks to the legalism of the "men of G-d" @ that time which was the rabbis, not Torah, the Law of Moshe, which is the Law of Adonai Luke 2:23.


You have not shown that by any standard or principle of sound exegesis.

As I said, you leap to conclusions on the back of unrelated topical proof-texting which have nothing to do with determining contextual meaning or understanding. And there is no way to get to consider that reality even broadly.

This has turned into a "Rain Man" debate.

Topic: Let's talk about Judaizers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: Jesus hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but Paul never mentions Pharisees
Charlie Babbit: John the Baptist hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but these appear to be believers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: 613...definitely 613...613 definitely
Topic: Toothpics?
Charlie Babbit: No... 613...definitely...
Topic: 613 Laws??
Charlie Babbit: 613 Pharisees in Galatia...definitely Pharisees...proof definitely proof...Rain Man
Topic: Uh.....OK
Very Happy


Dude, really? Tom maybe you can break Galatians down for me. What is the purpose of the "letter" & is it referring to Torah in a bad way?


You didn't ask me, but...

The primary purpose of Galatians is to put the place and purpose of the Torah into its proper place in the NT church and to clarify the doctrine of justification by faith. Torah is not referred to in a "bad" way. The book simply reveals the role, limitations, shortcomings and weaknesses of Torah.

The book simply reveals that keeping Torah will not:
    Get you saved
    Keep you saved
    Get you the Holy Spirit
    Get you miracles


The book simply reveals that trying to attain righteousness by keeping Torah will:
    Not work
    Alienate you from Christ
    Cause you to fall from grace

This is simply the reality of Torah. No one has to keep it to be saved. No one can keep it. Torah simply doesn't work for salvation which only comes by grace through faith.

Seems like waste of energy to spend too much time trying to keep a covenant that cannot give life. In fact, it not only cannot give life...it kills.
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Post Isa 58:12
bradfreeman wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:

I have shown you that the Book of Galatians speaks to the legalism of the "men of G-d" @ that time which was the rabbis, not Torah, the Law of Moshe, which is the Law of Adonai Luke 2:23.


You have not shown that by any standard or principle of sound exegesis.

As I said, you leap to conclusions on the back of unrelated topical proof-texting which have nothing to do with determining contextual meaning or understanding. And there is no way to get to consider that reality even broadly.

This has turned into a "Rain Man" debate.

Topic: Let's talk about Judaizers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: Jesus hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but Paul never mentions Pharisees
Charlie Babbit: John the Baptist hates Pharisees
Topic: Yes but these appear to be believers in Galatians
Charlie Babbit: 613...definitely 613...613 definitely
Topic: Toothpics?
Charlie Babbit: No... 613...definitely...
Topic: 613 Laws??
Charlie Babbit: 613 Pharisees in Galatia...definitely Pharisees...proof definitely proof...Rain Man
Topic: Uh.....OK
Very Happy


Dude, really? Tom maybe you can break Galatians down for me. What is the purpose of the "letter" & is it referring to Torah in a bad way?


You didn't ask me, but...

The primary purpose of Galatians is to put the place and purpose of the Torah into its proper place in the NT church and to clarify the doctrine of justification by faith. Torah is not referred to in a "bad" way. The book simply reveals the role, limitations, shortcomings and weaknesses of Torah.

The book simply reveals that keeping Torah will not:
    Get you saved
    Keep you saved
    Get you the Holy Spirit
    Get you miracles


The book simply reveals that trying to attain righteousness by keeping Torah will:
    Not work
    Alienate you from Christ
    Cause you to fall from grace

This is simply the reality of Torah. No one has to keep it to be saved. No one can keep it. Torah simply doesn't work for salvation which only comes by grace through faith.

Seems like waste of energy to spend too much time trying to keep a covenant that cannot give life. In fact, it not only cannot give life...it kills.


I'm glad you said something brad, this thread is for everyone. Ok, I see what your saying brad, but why did G-d give the Torah, Laws after adam sinned?

& have you ever read Ps 119? I'm sure you have, so how does your view of Galatians fit & flow in harmoney Ps 119?

Because there are 2 Laws that are spoken of in Galatians
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Post Isa 58:12
& I almost forgot the most important part as I'm trying to get out the door for Shabbat. The Torah will not save you, the Torah is about obedience & Blessings. Just think of why you tithe Wink
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Post I found this in my files from a loooong time ago; Isa 58:12
Gal 1:8-9 But though we, or another angel from Heaven, preach ANY OTHER gospel unto you than that which WE have preached unto you, let HIM be accursed. (O.T.)

As we said before, so say I again, If ANY man preach any other gospel unto you than ye have received, let HIM be accursed.

Now Y'shua came to preach Torah Mark 12:14. if He came to preach any other message HE would be under the curse right?

Now let’s go back to Deuteronomy 4:2 Because this verse backs up both and it says: Ye shall NOT add unto the Word which I command, you neither shall ye diminish (subtract) ought from it, that ye may keep the Commandments of the Lord YOUR G-d which I Command YOU Wink .

Now go to the last Book Revelations, the last chapter, chapter 22:14 Blessed are they that do HIS Commandments, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life, and may enter in through the city. Now it’s not giving a number is it? Go back to Matt 5:43 I want to show you something Y'shua starts that verse off with “Ye have heard” Now He’s NOT telling them something they never heard before, and He’s NOT correcting the Law, He’s correcting them. Another fact Galatians is not dismissing Torah.

Now for all the "we are under a New Covenant we don't have to obey Torah".

Heb 8:6: But NOW hath He obtained a MORE excellent ministry, by how much also HE IS the mediator of a BETTER covenant, which was established upon BETTER promises.

Not better Laws, better promises Wink ........
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Post Isa... michaelb
I've been trying to tell myself not to get involved but...

Isa 58:12 wrote:
...The Torah will not save you...


But you must keep the Torah to be truly saved?
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Are you saved? Well of course you have been atoned for, but Messiah is coming back for His spotless Yahoodim Esha, (Jewish Bride), they are the ones who love Him for who He is (Jewish) and keep His Torah and wants to be Echad “(One)” with Him.



I REALLY don't want to get in the discussion here, Isa. I have read all of your points, just trying to get clarity on your position now. A simple yes or no would be sufficient.
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Post Re: Isa... Isa 58:12
michaelb wrote:
I've been trying to tell myself not to get involved but...

Isa 58:12 wrote:
...The Torah will not save you...


But you must keep the Torah to be truly saved?
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Are you saved? Well of course you have been atoned for, but Messiah is coming back for His spotless Yahoodim Esha, (Jewish Bride), they are the ones who love Him for who He is (Jewish) and keep His Torah and wants to be Echad “(One)” with Him.



I REALLY don't want to get in the discussion here, Isa. I have read all of your points, just trying to get clarity on your position now. A simple yes or no would be sufficient.


Shalom michealb, sorry it took so long to reply. My computer got a virus & I just got it back. But the answer is "no" keeping the Torah "by itself" will not save you. We keep it "because" we are saved, its our obedience.

Its funny, Adonai reminded me of something @ Shabbat. In the N.T. in Tit 2:14 & 1 Pet 2:9 We as believers are called "".Peculiar people

& in the O.T., in the Torah Deut 26:18 says: & Adonai has avouched you this day to be "His" Peculiar people as He has "promised" you, & that you "should" keep ALL His Commandments..., found in the Torah.

Now the N.T. letters were based from the Torah & the prophets, as that was the only thing written. So now are believers in Messiah Y'shua a new or different kind of Peculiar people, or the same as in the O.T. which was Faith in G-d "&" Faith in obedience to keep His Commandments, of the Fathers Torah?

& if we are (which I believe we are) how does, or can the Book of Galatians really do away with the Torah?

Something to think about.....
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Post Here is a question Isa 58:12
How do you pastors read Gal 6:16, the Y'srael of G-d?
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Post Randy Johnson
To me, Israel is a spiritual name that was given to Jacob by God after Jacob had striven with God and men and had prevailed (Gen. 32:2Cool. It signifies the struggle we all face against our flesh, our human nature, and the victory we win over the flesh through faith.

The "Israel of God" are the people who have or are in the process of "prevailing" over the world and their flesh, living by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and walking and being led by the Spirit.

So, being a part of the Israel of God has nothing to do with genetics or biological ancestry, but with the spirits and minds of men and women, who have responded in faith to the drawing of the Holy Spirit, trusted in Jesus, been born from above by the Spirit of God, and are walking in the Spirit.
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Post Isa 58:12
Yea, the reason I asked randy is because I was reading an article saying Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Y'srael of G-d" was understood as a name for the church here.

& The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Y'srael" and "the church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.

They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Y'srael of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the church" is always carefully distinguished from "Y'srael" in Scripture.
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Post Randy Johnson
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Yea, the reason I asked randy is because I was reading an article saying Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Y'srael of G-d" was understood as a name for the church here.

& The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Y'srael" and "the church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.

They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Y'srael of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the church" is always carefully distinguished from "Y'srael" in Scripture.


It is clear to me from reading Scripture that believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel and that the Church consists of true Israelites, that is, as I said before, men and women, both Jew and Gentile, who have believed on and trusted in Jesus.

I have never believed that the Church "replaced" Israel, but I do believe the Church has always existed as people of the faith of Abraham, which finds it's end and purpose in Christ. I think the problem is between seeing the Church as an institution and seeing it as people.
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Post Isa 58:12
Randy Johnson wrote:
Isa 58:12 wrote:
Yea, the reason I asked randy is because I was reading an article saying Galatians 6:16 has become a matter of controversy in the past century or so. Formerly it was not a matter of controversy. With few exceptions, "The Y'srael of G-d" was understood as a name for the church here.

& The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with dispensationalism. Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Y'srael" and "the church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.

They are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Y'srael of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the church" is always carefully distinguished from "Y'srael" in Scripture.


It is clear to me from reading Scripture that believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel and that the Church consists of true Israelites, that is, as I said before, men and women, both Jew and Gentile, who have believed on and trusted in Jesus.

I have never believed that the Church "replaced" Israel, but I do believe the Church has always existed as people of the faith of Abraham, which finds it's end and purpose in Christ. I think the problem is between seeing the Church as an institution and seeing it as people.


Thank you for your response pastor, & sorry for my delayed response as I was Blessed with a virus on my computer....... Rolling Eyes Laughing & I am very surprised to still see this as a "sticky". But I only asked that question to see where you stood on that verse in Galatians because it goes with all the other "replacement theology" that has corrupted the Message of the Bible.

& I'm very glad you understand repacement theology & don't stand with it. & you are 100% correct in saying "believing Gentiles are grafted into Israel" (Eph 2:19) & they are also grafted into all the Covenants & Commands that the G-d of Y'srael gave to them Rom 9:4.

Shalom
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Post Russell Roberts
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Post Isa 58:12
Russell Roberts wrote:
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Thats too bad russell, i would have like to hear you on this Very Happy
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Post Randy Johnson
I'm curious, Isa, do you believe that every book of the Bible has equal authority?

Do you believe the New Testament has equal authority to the Old Testament?

Do you believe the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant?

Do you believe that the New Covenant has a different priesthood and a different law from the Old Covenant?
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Post Isa 58:12
[quote="Randy Johnson"]
Quote:
I'm curious, Isa, do you believe that every book of the Bible has equal authority?


Well yes, its one Covenant. & if G-d changed or removed anything how could anybody Trust Him to keep any promises that He has made? Thats a double minded god. & He is the G-d that does not change Very Happy

Quote:
Do you believe the New Testament has equal authority to the Old Testament?


see above.... & if you don't believe that pastor, please tell me, because qll of the New goes back to the old...

Quote:
Do you believe the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant?


I believe the Way we keep the "re-newed" Covenant is different, as Messiah Y'shua is the Goal of Torah Rom 10:4

Quote:
Do you believe that the New Covenant has a different priesthood and a different law from the Old Covenant?


Messiah is our High Priest now, that has changed, but not really Wink
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Post Randy Johnson
Randy Johnson wrote:
Quote:
I'm curious, Isa, do you believe that every book of the Bible has equal authority?


Well yes, its one Covenant. & if G-d changed or removed anything how could anybody Trust Him to keep any promises that He has made? Thats a double minded god. & He is the G-d that does not change Very Happy

Quote:
Do you believe the New Testament has equal authority to the Old Testament?


see above.... & if you don't believe that pastor, please tell me, because qll of the New goes back to the old...

Quote:
Do you believe the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant?


I believe the Way we keep the "re-newed" Covenant is different, as Messiah Y'shua is the Goal of Torah Rom 10:4

Quote:
Do you believe that the New Covenant has a different priesthood and a different law from the Old Covenant?


Messiah is our High Priest now, that has changed, but not really Wink


Thank you for answering these questions, Isa, because they bring clarity to everything. On the basis of your answers to these questions, it is evident that we will never be talking about the same things if we try to discuss Scripture, because your understanding of Scripture and the New Covenant is on an entirely different foundation from mine. Since you were kind enough to answer the questions for me, I will do the same for you.

[quote="Randy Johnson"]
Quote:
I'm curious, Isa, do you believe that every book of the Bible has equal authority?


I believe that every book of the Bible has equal authority, however, you have to follow the progressive revelation of Scripture through time to arrive at the proper belief for today.

Quote:
Do you believe the New Testament has equal authority to the Old Testament?


I believe the New Testament has equal authority to the Old Testament, but I do not believe that wherever it appears that the Old and New disagree, we don't throw out the New and cling to the Old.

Quote:
Do you believe the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant?


I believe the New Covenant is different from the Old in terms of implementation. It is clear in Jeremiah 31 that God said the New Covenant would "not be like the the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them, ” declares the LORD.

Quote:
Do you believe that the New Covenant has a different priesthood and a different law from the Old Covenant?


The book of Hebrews is quite clear that when there is a change of priesthood there must be a change of law.

Hebrews 7:11-17 wrote:
11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthoodwhy was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life.


Jesus is not a High Priest in the order of Aaron, and He does not serve as High Priest under the Law of Moses that established the priesthood of Aaron.

Jesus is a descendant of Judah, not Levi, and He is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron. There has been a change in the priesthood in the New Covenant, and because the priesthood has changed, the Law also must change (see verse 12 above)

God is not double-minded, Isa, He simply did not give the full revelation to the people who followed Moses out of Egypt. As Paul says, it was all kept hidden until Jesus came and then it was revealed through the preaching of the apostles. It is called, progressive revelation, Isa, and it is the opposite of what you have devoted yourself to, which I would call regressive revelation.
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12/9/10 12:50 pm


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Post Shalom p randy Isa 58:12
Quote:
Jesus is not a High Priest in the order of Aaron, and He does not serve as High Priest under the Law of Moses that established the priesthood of Aaron.

Jesus is a descendant of Judah, not Levi, and He is a priest in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron. There has been a change in the priesthood in the New Covenant, and because the priesthood has changed, the Law also must change (see verse 12 above)

God is not double-minded, Isa, He simply did not give the full revelation to the people who followed Moses out of Egypt. As Paul says, it was all kept hidden until Jesus came and then it was revealed through the preaching of the apostles. It is called, progressive revelation, Isa, and it is the opposite of what you have devoted yourself to, which I would call regressive revelation.


About the “levitical priesthood”, it needed to be Purified, or Cleansed of the priesthood because of Mal 2:1-9 & 3:1-4. The levitical priesthood “profaned” the Covenant Mal 2:8-9.

In
Heb 7:11-14, in verse 12 the word “changed” in the strongs #3346 is metithem which means to “transfer” (lit) transport, change sides because of Mal 2:1-9, 3:1-4.

Gen 14:18 “Melchizedek” Heb 7:11-17, Y’shua “re-took” the Melchizedek priesthood.

Messiah Y’shua is Greater than the levitivcal priesthood Heb 13:10. Which my notes say that an alter stood for the benefits of the sacrifices. In Messiah, it stands for the benefits of the death of Messiah as well as a place to meet with G-d.

Shalom
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Post Here are more notes I had.. Isa 58:12
On Gal 3:21-25, not sure if we discussed it here, I know I have other places. But they are very good, can't think of the book I got them from, Take Hold maybe, its been awhile. & any imput would be just great Laughing

Gal 3:21-25. Sha'ul Paul is comparing the Covenants the one @ Sinai & the Avrahamic, Abraham. Paul comes to the fact that the Torah was not given to impart Life. That was the purpose of the Avrahamic Covenant.
We receive Life by Faith.

Then Paul goes on to say that there are only 2 thingsthe Torah can do for those who attempt to receive Spiritual Life from obeying G-ds Torah.

1. The Torah points out our sins (vesre 22)

2. The Torah points us to the One who can remove sin (verses 23-25)
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