Actscelerate.com

Golf Cart Mafia Underboss Posts: 3682 **9/21/09 9:20 pm**

I don't see why we need to stop appearing so Pentecostal. I can understand some may not get it, but the Bible does say that tongues are a sign to unbelievers. I think that they need to get a taste of what God is doing in and through His people. I understand being seeker-friendly, but isn't there a way to do it that doesn't quench the moving of the Spirit? Let people experience the power of God, not just a nice, non offensive sermon.

I am a younger minister that wants desperately to win younger unbelievers. I want to draw them in, but I want them to know that there is a God who knows them, loves them, and wants to change them via His Spirit.
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UNCbluebleeder

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1397 **9/21/09 9:30 pm**

I'm not surprised. I've visited the AG church where I live recently and it's far from pentecostal. I hope the AG doesn't go the way of the Methodist church.
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NPS39

Been To A Church of God Lately?

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1458 **9/21/09 9:52 pm**

MS7777

The A/G and tongues issue

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **9/22/09 7:26 am**

As an AG pastor and leader of long standing, this particular issue has been a source of contention for some time now. This article correctly expresses our problem. As a movement we have been at the the forefront of church planting as a means to evangelize and grow the church. However, the church growth movement is primarially a Baptist, seeker movement. Now it is emergent, missional or whatever but the premise is Sunday morning is time to evangelize and make people "comfortable" in a "Christian" setting. Ergo, nothng should be done to make people "uncomfortable". Tongues or the gifts of the Spirit makes people uncomfortable (at least in this line of thought) so don't allow it, don't teach it.

IMHO tongues and other manifestations may make people somewhat uncomfortable but if the leader/pastor would teach about it, explain it froma scriptural standpoint then it could be allowed. So many of our young pastors have this mindset of no tongues, that there was felt the need to affirm our doctine by a resolution at our most recent General COuncil. Each year, our credential renewal forms ask if we still beleive and preach on the initial evidence and manifest tongues. Most of our preachers are being disengenuous when they fill out the form, because they either don't believe it or do not preach it.

One last point, one of our Executive General Presbyters who pastors a 6000 member church told me that tongues and physical manifestations had no role int he church today. He said that this is just our "old time pentecostal" mindset and that mindset will keep your church below 300 people forever. He said he prays in tongues but when asked when or where the baptism of the spirit is taught or allowed to be manifested he could give no answer. This situation is not unique and will become the split of the AG (it is already occuring as many are taking their churches out of the fellowship or letting their credentials lapse as they join other denominations or go independent).

Pray for the AG, and by the way, from the things I read on this board, it seems the COG is not far behind!

Maranatha
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Acts 1:8

FG Minister

Today's Church...

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **9/22/09 8:18 am**

is certainly different than when I was raised in the COG. Being raised COG I only thought there were two gifts of the Spirit - tongues and interpretation of tongues. That was pretty much it. If you spoke with tongues, you were in the elite. If you also had the gift of Interpretation of Tongues - you were in the super elite. I did not realize until I left my home church and went to a non-Pentecostal college and seminary that there are actually 25 gifts of the Holy Spirit and in so many ways the other 23 are of more benefit to the local church than tongues and interpretation of tongues. That does not diminish tongue speaking at all - it just means there is variety in the operation of the Holy Spirit.

My home church stayed small because the emphasis was on tongues and the unspoken gift, which many possessed, -- "judging others." My home church could have benefited had our pastors had the gift of administration and some of our members possessed the gifts of mercy or hospitality. These gifts were in short supply, but man could we talk in tongues.

I now pastor a non-denominational church where we believe and practice all 25 gifts (well, not all - few pray for the gifts of poverty and celibacy). I think we are more well-rounded. It is true that tongue speaking does not occur much at all in public worship, but many of the other gifts do. I prefer the balance we now have and I pray in tongues almost every day.

MS7777

25 Gifts? This is exactly the problem!

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **9/22/09 8:33 am**

While God gives "gifts" to His children, these might more accurately be defined as "talents". There are 9 SUPERNATURAL Gifts of Charisma (1 Cor. 12:4-10) including the Gift of tongues which, although simialrto, is distinct and different from the the initial evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The idea of 25 gifts waters down the supernatural aspect of the true gifts and makes people more comfortable with the fact they haven't received the the real baptism in the Holy Spirit. THis is exactly the problem in our churches today. This kind of thinking and teaching minimizes the power of God and relegates Him to gifts of celibacy, poverty, etc which may be God-given but are more likely personal prefences and pre-dispositions.

God deliver us from such thinking. We need the power of God today as never before. I know others disagree but the only entry way into the Gifts of the Spirit is by being Baptized in the Holy Spirit and the only way (yes, I said the ONLY way) to know if you have been baptized in the Spirit is by some outward evidence. THat's what the Apostles believed (see Acts 11 for Peter's remarks to the church in Jerusalem after he witnessed the outpouring of the Spirit at Cornelius' house.

THis is what the AG supposedly believes and what the COG believes and states in their doctrinal foundations (I may be wrong about the COG - if so excuse me.)

FG preacher, don't give up the FULL GOSPEL - Supernatural impartation of 9 gifts!
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Acts 1:8

MS7777

One More Thing

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **9/22/09 9:04 am**

In the article cited at the beginning of this thread, it was mentioned how Supt. Wood dealt with this Resolution on the Council floor. The Exec. Committe NEVER wanted to deal with this but they were forced to because a District Council voted on it and sent it in. THis can of worms will split our Fellowship (which is exactly why Supt. Trask stepped down from his position two years early - he did not want the split to occur on his watch and he feared it might). Bro. Wood is trying to play both sides against the middle - so a voice vote was taken at the end of the council when many had already left the Council and no debate was allowed. Be sure of this, if this doctrine is allowed to be changed there will be rejoicing in some quarters and a stampede out in another quarter.

Already those of us who hold to this doctrine are being made to feel marginalized and patronized as "old-timers" who just don't "get it". I get it but don't be surprised when the "stuff" finally hits the fan, in the AG and COG and anywhere else that still holds to this way of thinking (COGOP? others).

BE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT!
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Randy Johnson

Randy Johnson · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **9/22/09 11:35 am**

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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Randy Johnson

Re: Been To A Church of God Lately?

Randy Johnson · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **9/22/09 11:41 am**

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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Randy Johnson

Re: 25 Gifts? This is exactly the problem!

Randy Johnson · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **9/22/09 11:43 am**

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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

FG Minister

Let Me Recommend Two Books

Acts-celerater Posts: 875 **9/22/09 11:51 am**

Dr. C. Peter Wagner wrote a book, with a spiritual gifts assessment, entitled: YOUR SPIRITUAL GIFTS CAN HELP YOUR CHURCH GROW. He lists 25 spiritual gifts. Another book is entiled: 19 GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT - WHICH DO YOU HAVE by Leslie Flynn. If interested, these might help your understanding of my position.

For example - some people desperately need someone to show them mercy (a spiritual gift) and then lead them to Christ before they need someone to speak in tongues. Or it could be that a local church is in such disarray, that no matter how spiritual they may be, they need structure and direction. Someone with the gift of administration may be just what they need over some of the vocal gifts.

Have you ever considered that some of the non-vocal gifts might be needed to prepare for the proper operation of the vocal gifts? I think a church that has the gifts of hospitality and mercy are perfect churches for the vocal gifts. I do not see the reverse. Please consider that all 25 gifts are from the Holy Spirit and are needed in the church. Of course, we still need healing and miracles and tongues, but don't discount the others. As I stated - I grew up in a church that only operated in the vocal and/or demonstrative gifts, and it was the most unloving, uncaring church I ever attended. I never want to go back to that again. There was no balance.

MS7777

Response 1

MS7777 · Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **9/22/09 12:54 pm**

First of all, to FG Minister: A am quite aware of the Wagner-Houts Spiritual Gifts assessment and have no real arguement with them per se. True the church needs to be balanced, that word is a summation of what I have tried to be in the ministry having witnessed excess from so many people and seen the destruction unbalance leaves in its wake. However, the problem I have is that too often people are left untaught and unencoruaged to seek after the real baptism with evidence which is still THE entry way into the supernatural. Having the "gift of mercy" is fine but if 1 Cor 12 is to be believed, EVERY person can have a supernatural gift of the 9 listed. ! Cor. 14 tells us to DESIRE spiritual gifts and covet to prophesy. Not to the exclusion or excess but so the church can be edified, comforted and encouraged by God personally through the Word of God to His church and by the Gifts of Faith, Wisdom etc. Most of the teaching regarding Wagner's gifts seem to indicate the gifts are already in you which tends to teach and imply that you don't need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit with evidence. Remember, Wagner is a "Third-Waver" (his words) and NOT a classical Pentecostal.

Non-Vocal gifts of hopsitalaity and others are wonderful and should be in every beleiver but they seem to me to be more of the "fruit" of the Spirit life and less of the Gifts of the Spirit.
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Acts 1:8

Randy Johnson

Re: Let Me Recommend Two Books

Randy Johnson · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **9/22/09 2:08 pm**

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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Link

Re: 25 Gifts? This is exactly the problem!

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/22/09 6:13 pm**

Link

Re: Let Me Recommend Two Books

Acts-perienced Poster Posts: 11849 **9/22/09 6:22 pm**

Randy Johnson

Re: 25 Gifts? This is exactly the problem!

Randy Johnson · Hon. Dr. in Acts-celeratology Posts: 5431 **9/23/09 6:16 am**

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Randy Johnson, Pastor
Ickesburg Church of God
85 Tuscarora Path
Ickesburg, Pennsylvania

Rafael D Martinez

NOMINATED: THREAD OF THE YEAR

Acts-dicted Posts: 7766 **9/23/09 6:37 am**

fwiw .. so glad this one got stickied
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MS7777

I have appreciated the civil dialogue

Acts-celerater Posts: 725 **9/23/09 10:05 am**

Thanks to all who have posted. I do want to add one more thing however. The original post has a link to a Christianity Today article that was quite accurate and an apt description of the tension in the two camps in the AG.

I didn't want this thread to devolve into an intial physical evidence thread, it is not. Whether anyone chooses to believe this doctrine is immaterial to the discussion. The AG (and as far as I know the COG) has it as part of their foundational doctrine. The tension that exists in the camp is what role should the manifestation of the Holy Spirit (the 9 gifts of 1 Cor. 12 and more specifically the vocal gifts) have in our normal worship services?

My concern, and many others' concern, is that our churches have bought into a mindset (that is most often promulgated by the "Seeker/Emergent/Missional" church growth adherents - not that all of them do - just many) that not just diminishes the manifestions, it outright makes them unwelcome in our churches. While this is fine in churches who do not have this doctrine as part of their DNA, it is quite something else to have a name on a church that says one thing and in practice be something else.

Throughout the world as I preach, where we are seeing the most success evangelistically and where the church is growing the most, is where the Holy Spirit and His manifestations are made welcome (yea invited and expected) in the services. It is tragic that we in America and the Western church which launched Pentescost to the world have become too sophisticated to allow Him in our meetings today.

This turn of events prompted my first post and still moves me and makes me promote the Cause of Holy Spirit to my peers (not to the exclusion of the rest of the Gospel). I want a church where the Spirit of God is embraced and welcomed and where everything is done " decently and in order". We have been frightened off by wild fire so we toss the baby out with the bath water. Teach your people, do not be afraid of the Holy Spirit, train them how to act but by all means stop grieving the Spirit in our churches.

be blessed, my brothers and sisters.
Maranatha
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Acts 1:8

Ichthus77

Pentecostal Growth

Acts Enthusiast Posts: 1270 **9/26/09 10:46 am**

What I don't understand in this desire to "remove Pentecostal elements" like speaking in tongues in order to be "not offend anyone" and thereby grow faster is:

Don't they realize that the very nature of Pentecostalism and those very elements is WHY Pentecostalism and Charismatic type churches are the fastest growing religion?? I mean, duh....

SOMETHING attracted people to these movements like A/G and COG to make them grow from little obscure groups from 1914 (A/G) to 50-60 million around the world today. Or like the COG only existing since 1886 and from the hillbilly woods to what it is today. Double duh....
Something draws people to this kind of church and it ISNT video vignettes and secular rock clips, or dancers shaking their hips, or Starbucks coffee. All that stuff is the last few years or so....

And these movements grew swiftly even when they were clothes-line legalistic!!! Even look at the UPC today, millions strong, and still strict and emotional. It's not dying or disappearing.

Baptists and others have been around for CENTURIES and yet Pentecostals have become the fastest growing religious phenomena in under 100 years. They didn't get that way by softening their distinctives, or underplaying their differences. In fact why do you think Baptists are now raising their hands, and using Praise /worship music instead of hymns at times, etc. It is the influence of Pentecostalism!

The very things that make the Penteocstals different are what have made them grow like wildfire, and are the very things that non-Pentecostal churches are now imitating to some extent.

Sure, on a local level, you can surely find many COG dead and boring and stuck in the 1950s and up the street a seeker sensitive church with lively music and 5000 attendees. But the growth hasn't stopped in those COG churches because they haven't adopted new styles or fads, but rather becuase they have become luke-warm and indifferent and lost the true Pentecostal fire. As well as losing the evangelistic zeal. True Pentecostals have always been intensly evangelistic and fervent in sharing their faith down thru the years, even with their wild emotional services and strict legalistic clothes-line preaching. And they grew like crazy!! Not from new methods or new fads, or from "toning things down" even the least bit,but from zeal and the fire of the Holy Ghost baptism.
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Pastor Jim L. Hamby

Maybe I am "old school" BUT...

Friendly Face Posts: 258 **10/1/09 4:37 am**

I still believe in a demonstration of the Holy Spirit and that includes a public gift of speaking in tongues and interpretation of those tongues. Of course, I know there is a difference in devotional tongues and the public gift of tongues and I want the devotional tongues in a service to be prvate and quiet.

I still preach and strongly believe that Jesus is coming back for the same kind of church that He left when He ascended on the Mt. of Olives; a church that is seeking all that He has for them (including speaking in tongues). I know that they did not become pentecostal for 10 days after He ascended but they went straight to the upper room and sought Him intensely until the Comforter came and then they went out and turned the world upside down.

Why are we not affecting our society like that early church did? Maybe it's because we have put our pentecostal distinctive on the back burner.