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Assemblies of God Position on Total Abstinence
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Post Assemblies of God Position on Total Abstinence Classical Pentecostal
From the AG Position Paper which can be found on their website:

Alcoholic beverages should have no place in the life of the Christian. We declare unequivocally our conviction that total abstinence from alcoholic beverages is the only acceptable way of life for the Christian.
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9/1/09 11:56 pm


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Post John Jett
Any doubt which side starts most of these threads? Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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9/2/09 9:15 am


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Post Re: Assemblies of God Position on Total Abstinence bradfreeman
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Classical Pentecostal wrote:
Alcoholic beverages should have no place in the life of the Christian.


I wonder why nobody told Jesus.


He's not AG, so it doesn't matter. Rolling Eyes
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9/2/09 9:22 am


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Post c6thplayer1
Lord Chancellor wrote:
John Jett wrote:
Any doubt which side starts most of these threads?


Nope. Not at all. But my side (the correct, Scriptural and Biblical-based side) gets accused of starting all of them.

I enjoy how the arguments always seem to go, though. It's quite entertaining and humorous. When the side with the inaccurate and un-Scriptural view (that consumption is sin) realizes they have no Scriptural support and that theoir view is Biblically errant, they flip the argument and resort to posting Practical Commitments and statements of denominational unfaith, abandoning their failed attempt to prove consumption as sin. Sometimes, they'll even make a statement like, "Forget what the Bible says.." which is deserving of double the laughter. And then they'll blame us for starting the thread they started.




Laughing Laughing Laughing




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9/2/09 9:23 am


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Post Hold on LC Omega
Lord Chancellor wrote:
John Jett wrote:
Any doubt which side starts most of these threads?


Nope. Not at all. But my side (the correct, Scriptural and Biblical-based side) gets accused of starting all of them.

I enjoy how the arguments always seem to go, though. It's quite entertaining and humorous. When the side with the inaccurate and un-Scriptural view (that consumption is sin) realizes they have no Scriptural support and that their view is Biblically errant, they flip the argument and resort to posting Practical Commitments and statements of denominational unfaith, abandoning their failed attempt to prove consumption as sin. Sometimes, they'll even make a statement like, "Forget what the Bible says.." which is deserving of double the laughter. And then they'll blame us for starting the thread they started.




Laughing Laughing Laughing


I assume you were talking about my post when I said " Forget what the Bible say's". You are smart enough to know what I was saying, but not smart enough to understand.
Even from a logical / social standpoint it points to the dangers of alcohol. I don't not drink just because of the PC's. I don't drink because I had to work very hard along with the Lord helping me to break the hold the addiction that alcohol brings. You guys got it backwards. It isn't freedom to do those things now...It a freedom Christ brings to NOT do those things.
I believe that it isn't the church taking authority over Scripture by them instructing us to obstain, but that it is part of Christ giving authority to the church to name some things as things we should not partake.
Mt 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

I believe the Lord knew we would encounter issues that may seem vague concerning any particular generation so He gave us authority. It isn't that a drink of wine would send someone to hell. But it's the Church standing on it's given authority to mention some things off limits. If our Church allowed it's members to drink in moderation can you imagine what some define as moderation. And would you honestly want a church where we assemble and many have been drinking?

It's kinda funny...some guy said on one of the recent threads about not drinking alcohol in a social setting so as to ruin his testimony to unbelievers. I think that's it right there. Most unbelivers even know that drinking is wrong. They know it's wrong...because they know it's power over them. Cool Cool
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9/2/09 2:24 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC Link
Omega wrote:

I believe that it isn't the church taking authority over Scripture by them instructing us to obstain, but that it is part of Christ giving authority to the church to name some things as things we should not partake.
Mt 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven


What about all the Christians throughout history before the temperance movement of the 1800's and all the Christians today who drank alcohol in moderation. If they don't join in on your binding, can your binding drinking alcohol make it sinful for them.

This is a conscience issue for the most part. The only problem comes when people reject Christ's instructions to drink the cup over the issue of alcohol. I suppose grape juice is allowed, though the wine that was considered kosher for passover back then was fully fermented and had the dead yeast that floated to the top removed from it.
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Post Dave Dorsey
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Post this horse just got beat on last week..... Joe Nail
its dead !!!!! it ain't movin!!! i believe it has begum to stink....

father lawerance thought it one of best task to get to shop for the wine served in his monistary...... oh yeah he was catholic... he was not christian any way ....sorry Embarassed
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9/2/09 4:19 pm


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Post I agree Omega Dean Steenburgh
Omega wrote:

Quote:
I believe the Lord knew we would encounter issues that may seem vague concerning any particular generation so He gave us authority. It isn't that a drink of wine would send someone to hell. But it's the Church standing on it's given authority to mention some things off limits. If our Church allowed it's members to drink in moderation can you imagine what some define as moderation. And would you honestly want a church where we assemble and many have been drinking?


It's near blasphemy for some of these guys to assert that Jesus was willing to be controlled by an alcoholic beverage. Just the mere idea makes me sick to think that my Lord would allow a foreign product to alter his control, which is what wine does. Many people say that one glass will get them drunk & these characters want to believe that Jesus would bend to the level of consuming something that has the potential of great harm. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Well why don't they fall on their swords when it comes to weed. It's legal in many places and the bible doesn't say it's a sin. Why not smoke it in moderation & we all know a few joints will not send anyone to hell. So what if you get the munchies or it alters your senses, after all, God allowed it to grow and He probably put it here so that man could get high once in a while ...just like when He wanted man to get drunk occasionally ...right??? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Oh forgive me, they won't get drunk because everything is done in moderation & when we allow moderate drinking everyone will abide by that ruling Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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9/2/09 6:04 pm


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Post Re: Hold on LC Omega
Link wrote:
Omega wrote:

I believe that it isn't the church taking authority over Scripture by them instructing us to obstain, but that it is part of Christ giving authority to the church to name some things as things we should not partake.
Mt 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven


What about all the Christians throughout history before the temperance movement of the 1800's and all the Christians today who drank alcohol in moderation. If they don't join in on your binding, can your binding drinking alcohol make it sinful for them.

This is a conscience issue for the most part. The only problem comes when people reject Christ's instructions to drink the cup over the issue of alcohol. I suppose grape juice is allowed, though the wine that was considered kosher for passover back then was fully fermented and had the dead yeast that floated to the top removed from it.


I tend to the notion that there are some things that fall under a catagory that the Church can govorn due to the authority given the Church. Our Church under it's authority has decided to draw the line in the sand and discourage it's members from drinking alcohol due to the dangers of bondage it brings. It's really simple...if you don't like it go somewhere else. Laughing
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9/2/09 6:13 pm


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Post Omega
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Dean, are you on meds?


To LC, if you disagree with him , your either a Pharisee or on drugs. I sometimes wonder if you aren't under the influence of something much more powerful. Surprised
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Post Re: Hold on LC Omega
Lord Chancellor wrote:
Omega wrote:
has decided to draw the line in the sand and discourage it's members from drinking alcohol due to the dangers of bondage it brings.


And that's fine. I don't think anybody has a great problem with that. I discourage it for the same reasons. I believe it is wise to abstain, but not a mandatory requirement of holiness or salvation, as some would decieve people into believing.

My point is that it is not sin, so we shouldn't go condemning everyone who doesn't practice what we practice on this particular issue, because it is not sin. Period.

And contrary to Dean's ramblings, Jesus drank alcohol- fermented wine. And that's just the way it is.


LC, what do you think about John 20:23? Isn't that Christ giving the Disciples authority of some issues to call them sin?
What about Matthew 18:18? Isn't that Christ giving the church authority over certain matters so as to provide protection for the people?
One last thing and I'll not beat this horse again at least for a while. The PC's were in place when you decided to become a COG pastor. It's not like they come up with the PC's after you were already in. My question is why would you puposely align yourself with a denomination that you disagree with so much? It's not about one issue but it's about you accusing the COG of taking authority over the Bible and what Christ teaches. I would not spend one minute in the COG if I felt they did that. I just don't get where you're coming from. Very Happy Very Happy
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9/2/09 7:14 pm


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Post Poor taste Dean Steenburgh
LC wrote:
Quote:
I believe it is wise to abstain, but not a mandatory requirement of holiness or salvation, as some would decieve people into believing.

My point is that it is not sin, so we shouldn't go condemning everyone who doesn't practice what we practice on this particular issue, because it is not sin. Period.

And contrary to Dean's ramblings, Jesus drank alcohol- fermented wine. And that's just the way it is.


I honestly believe that you are a sick man & your constant mantra of trying to convince people that Jesus drank an alcoholic beverage is mind numbing. The Son of God would not drink a beverage that could alter His emotions or His behavior.

The way you believe, the following example could play out like this: If Jesus was living in Atlanta & He partook as you suggest, He then gets in His car & gets pulled over for weaving in traffic??? What, is someone going to give Him a breathalyzer test? Could He be found intoxicated with a blood alcohol level of more than .08??? You're demanding that we accept YOUR fact that Jesus drank wine & came under the influence of that numb warming sensation of relaxation? I do believe that you have a bent understanding and it is not based on the word of God at all, it's based on your demented opinion that wine is "OK", in moderation of course.

Like I said before son, when you've been in the ministry for over 30 years and you've dealt with numerous drunks and problems associated with the animal called alcohol, you try justifying your beliefs then. Until then, ask the Lord if your convictions need a tune up, mine always have and still do.

BTW, I don't believe I ever said wine consumption was a sin! I know it is against our PC's which we are to uphold.

Lastly, I take offense at your comment from the top: " ...but not a mandatory requirement of holiness or salvation, as some would decieve people into believing." Our CoG founding fathers lived a life of holiness as unto salvation & I don't believe that they were trying to deceive anyone with the original church documents. That comment from you was in poor taste, but I guess I should expect that from you. Embarassed
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Post Dave Dorsey
Dean, I hope you can tolerate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I just have this mental image of you standing in the corner with your arms crossed as the fruit of the vine Jesus promised He'd drink with us is passed around. Laughing Now 67% friendlier!
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Post Wade Hinson
I am now convinced that all of these threads are created by closet alcoholics screaming out for help. I think we should create a section on this forum called Actscelerate Alcoholics or AA for short.

Also Dean I apologize because I too thought you were saying the glass of wine was a sin in and of itself and after you defended yourself I went back and reread a lot of your post proving myself wrong on that point.

I say again why is this a point that keeps being argued there are people out there who have never drank, never smoked and are still going to hell. This is a PC and that is it, so yes lets not drink but why continue to focus our efforts on it?
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9/2/09 8:16 pm


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Post Re: I agree Omega David Branson
Dean Steenburgh wrote:
Omega wrote:

Quote:
I believe the Lord knew we would encounter issues that may seem vague concerning any particular generation so He gave us authority. It isn't that a drink of wine would send someone to hell. But it's the Church standing on it's given authority to mention some things off limits. If our Church allowed it's members to drink in moderation can you imagine what some define as moderation. And would you honestly want a church where we assemble and many have been drinking?


It's near blasphemy for some of these guys to assert that Jesus was willing to be controlled by an alcoholic beverage. Just the mere idea makes me sick to think that my Lord would allow a foreign product to alter his control, which is what wine does. Many people say that one glass will get them drunk & these characters want to believe that Jesus would bend to the level of consuming something that has the potential of great harm. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Well why don't they fall on their swords when it comes to weed. It's legal in many places and the bible doesn't say it's a sin. Why not smoke it in moderation & we all know a few joints will not send anyone to hell. So what if you get the munchies or it alters your senses, after all, God allowed it to grow and He probably put it here so that man could get high once in a while ...just like when He wanted man to get drunk occasionally ...right??? Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Oh forgive me, they won't get drunk because everything is done in moderation & when we allow moderate drinking everyone will abide by that ruling Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad


I tend to stay out of these debates...BUT....who says that Jesus would allow himself to be under control of a substance?
That is a bit of a stretch.

AND weed IS forbidden. ONE joint....actually just a couple of tokes will send in to the corner to contemplate life.

Whereas a drink or two does nothing but wet your throat.

That "Be sober and vigilant" kicks in when discussing weed.

I wanna make clear that I am not drinker and nor do I condone it, but a substantive argument should be used...not hyperbole.
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Post Dean Steenburgh
Dean, I hope you can tolerate the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I just have this mental image of you standing in the corner with your arms crossed as the fruit of the vine Jesus promised He'd drink with us is passed around.

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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9/2/09 9:10 pm


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Post Analyze This... c6thplayer1
IF it takes 10 alcoholic drinks to get you drunk.. then is it safe to assume that the consumption of one drink would classify you as 1 tenth drunk?

Not to stir things anymore than necessary...
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9/2/09 9:11 pm


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Post Dean Steenburgh
Brandr wrote:
Quote:
I tend to stay out of these debates...BUT....who says that Jesus would allow himself to be under control of a substance?
That is a bit of a stretch.

AND weed IS forbidden. ONE joint....actually just a couple of tokes will send in to the corner to contemplate life.

Whereas a drink or two does nothing but wet your throat.

That "Be sober and vigilant" kicks in when discussing weed.


If a guy takes a drink of booze, he is potentially under another influence period!
Where is weed forbidden?
And a drink does way more than wet your whistle. It changes your mood & ability to make good decisions.
"Be sober and vigilant" kicks in when discussing booze, in fact it is mentioned 12 times in the NT alone!

.

.
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9/2/09 9:21 pm


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Post Randy Johnson
I think motivation plays a part in this argument.

The main reason I have never drank alcohol is that there is really no good reason to drink it. The only reason I can think of for drinking alcohol is that it does alter your mind, and that is why the Scripture warns against being drunk on it.

Our aim should be to be controlled by the Holy Spirit at all times, not controlled by a chemical that affects us physically and mentally. I have argued on this thread and others like it that Scripture does not teach total abstinence from alcohol. That is because it simply doesn't. Period. Scripture teaches instead that we are to be self-controlled in our consumption of alcohol. People who cannot exercise self-control in alcohol should not drink at all ever!

The question I think should be asked by Christians who do drink alcohol, even in moderation, is "What is your motivation for drinking alcohol?" As Paul quoted, "'All things are lawful for me', but not all things are beneficial. 'All things are lawful for me', but not everything is constructive. 'All things are lawful for me', but I will not be mastered by anything."

Everything we do in word and deed is to be done in the name of Lord Jesus, and we are to purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. So the real question when it comes to even moderate alcohol consumption is the motivation of our hearts.

I had an uncle who made his living working for a liquor distributor. He wasn't just a beer truck delivery person, he ran in the high class social circles in my hometown. He played golf everyday with the important people in town and served liquor at their parties at night. For him, alcohol was a social status symbol, he sneered at people who got drunk, especially the rest of my mother's siblings who were poor and could only afford a couple cases of beer on the weekends.

I wonder, to some degree, if this is the motivation behind moderate alcohol consumption for some Christians? They never intend to get drunk and possibly never will, but it just comes down to a "pride of life" issue (the boasting about what a man has and does). Even without drunkenness, this motivation does not come from the Father, but from the world.
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9/2/09 9:41 pm


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