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Why didn't Jesus pray for the World?
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Post Why didn't Jesus pray for the World? BlessedinMsTn
Why did he only pray for the elect, those who's name were written in the lambs book of life before the worlds were created>

Note in John 17:9-10
Here Jesus clearly is not praying for the whole world but only for an elected people, a select portion... I am looking for open discussion on why Jesus said he was not praying for the World.
I pray for them : I pray NOT for the world, but for THEM which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine, and I am glorified in THEM
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Post Nightsky4
Good question, Blessed. The full answer is probably hidden withint the deep things of God, but I would say that He didn't pray for them because they were not the elect. He prays for those whom He 'foreloved.'

Why are some elect and some not? Same quandry--only God knows.

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5/17/06 7:18 am


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Post Nightsky, I believe your answer is exactly right BlessedinMsTn
When I tell people that there are some people who will never be saved no matter how hard you try and reach them I get some funny looks... However, those whose names were written in the lambs book of life before the foundations of the World, Jesus came to seek and to save THEM.....

Now it is Gods desire for every man to be saved for whosoever will.. However, when he came and died he knew the ones who were going to accept his call and walk in his salvation and those and only those are the ones he came and died for...

There are people who do not have it in them to be saved,,, they are hollow inside,, they can hear the greatest gospel sermon and never flench,,, for those people Jesus did not pray for,, he prayed only for the elected lady
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Post Brenda
From the readings of the "The Complete Bibllical Library."


The disciples were the ones through whom the world woud hear the gospel.
Therefore, Jesus focused His request on His disciples.
(Verses 21 and 23 assure us of the Lord's interest in the world.)

He asked that His own be kept, be full of joy, be sanctified, etc. But when He prayed for the world, He prayed that they might believe and know His mission.

Jesus' exclusion of the world from this particular prayer is no evidence of lack of love for the unconverted. This prayer was specifically one for preservation, sanctification, and glorification. Those who are in the world can also become the object of His priestly intercession only after they are converted.
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Post Brenda, he is still only praying for the believers BlessedinMsTn
In the verses you made reference to his prayer is still only for those whom he FOREKNOWS will accept his message and be part of the Bride Company. He is praying for them in the present and in the future

Verse 14: : : I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

He did not come for the world he came for them,, who is them,, them who he foreknew would receive his message...

Also he is not just praying for the twelve disciples, he is praying her for every believer that has received his message for his hour... he is praying for them,, NOT THE WORLD< his concern is only for the elect....

Verse 16 - They are not of the world

Verse 20,,, Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

Not one time does he pray for the world,,, he is praying for the Bride present and future,, never for the world,, he knows who is elected lady is,, he knows who will make up the Bride Company and he is praying only for her


Verse 23::: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me

This verse clearly states that the world will know that God has loved THEM, this is the same THEM all the way though this chapter,, the ones who believe
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5/17/06 9:37 am


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Post If I may interject....... UNCbluebleeder
John 17 is Christ praying for His disciples as they were about to go into the world to spread His gospel, in no way do I see this one event as Christ ignoring the world. He spent the three and a half years of His earthly ministry preparing and equipment His disciples, and since He was about to go to the cross, thus leave the earth, He was praying for His disciples to carry on His ministry; just as we pray for our fellow believers and not necessarily the world. Were told to go into the world, not necessarily pray for it.

Furthermore, your assertion that only certain individuals can be saved is very concerning to me. If that was correct, then why did Christ give us the Great Commission; to try and find those certain special people? I don't see that. If someone doesn't receive the offer of salvation it isn't because God didn't predestine/choose them, it because of either the hardness of their heart or they just flat out reject Christ (point being, it's the individuals choice, not God's so-called non-selection of them). This line of thinking totally does away with the free-will that God gives. Not trying to cause a stink here, just some clarification from my view. Very Happy

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Post UNC Bluebleeder stp89
I agree with you, but you should never debate with a Calvinist- you are predestined to fail.

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5/17/06 12:08 pm


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Post Blessed MrSmith
I just don't understand (not even getting into the debate of what you are speaking)...

If you believe what you believe concerning this scripture - why would you even tell someone or "your church" that there are those "in their family" "their friends" that will never be saved - no matter how hard they try?

How does that help anyone? How does that make them want to witness or share the gospel with anyone else?

I just don't understand that kind of thinking.
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Post Mr Smith, it gives the believer reason to be thankful BlessedinMsTn
that they were counted worhty of this calling, that before the foundation were framed they were already saved in the mind of God.. When someone is listening to you preach and they are in the kingdom of God this message gives them ultimate joy to know that they have accepted their position that they were born for . . .

Remember, the potter makes somes vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor... When we think of our being saved and what a special calling we have in the light of predestination it gives the believer soo much to be thankful for.....
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Post Re: Mr Smith, it gives the believer reason to be thankful Nightsky4
BlessedinMsTn wrote:

Remember, the potter makes somes vessels unto honor and some unto dishonor... When we think of our being saved and what a special calling we have in the light of predestination it gives the believer soo much to be thankful for.....


Yes, that is so true. And the glory all goes to God who is the one that predestines.

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Post I thought....... UNCbluebleeder
that God was "no respector of persons". According to your thinking, God doesn't even care about those who are not chosen, since they can't be saved anyway.

I don't see how God supposedly picks and chooses whom to be saved, my Bible says "whosever will, let him come".
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Post Re: I thought....... Nightsky4
UNCbluebleeder wrote:
that God was "no respector of persons". According to your thinking, God doesn't even care about those who are not chosen, since they can't be saved anyway.

I don't see how God supposedly picks and chooses whom to be saved, my Bible says "whosever will, let him come".


To be a respector of persons means that an individual is given preferential treatment based on some merit present within that particular individual. This is not the case with the predestining work of God. Romans 9 makes it clear that God elects whom He elects based on nothing that the individual does--it is not based on merit, therefore God is no respector of persons.

Predestination is a biblical concept. Read again Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. You will see that God does indeed pick whom will be saved. That is what predestination is. And yes, whosoever wills may come. Predesination does not nullify a person's choosing to come to Jesus. Rather, it renders it certain.

Blessings,
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Post Whatever!!! UNCbluebleeder
I can see this debate is going to be like trying to nail down jello. Confused

Peace!!!
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Post Nightsky4, it is so hard for people to grasp what they cant BlessedinMsTn
comprehend,,,,, to make God a good who has mercy on whom he will have mercy makes us human powerless and therefore takes away our selfish pride,,, so we dare not make God all Sovereign... I mean since we cant imagine him electing some and not others,,, surely he cant do it,, after all we are great theologians and it just dont make sense to us so therefore it cannot be.... I choose to believe that he is the great creator God and there were some such as Judas who was born only to fulfill scripture as Jesus said in John 17,, he said,, I have lost none of them that thou gavest me except the son of perdition and that was only that the scripture might be fulfilled

Pharoah was created to be the evil man that he was,, he played into Gods great drama... Babylon the evil empire was called a GOLDEN CUP in the HAND OF THE LORD that he used to pour out wrath.... Oh this goes so against the God that is preached in this flaky church world now
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Post Nightsky4
Yes, Blessed, if God is sovereign then we therefore aren't. It seems many/most people want to sacrifice God's sovereignty rather than their own. God's glory is diminished in the process.

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Post TheoloJohn
To use this reference as proof-text for Calvinism is a textbook study in reading one's theology into a particular text. Just because Jesus prays only for His disciples in this instance in no way requires us to think that He never prayed for anyone else.

From Albert Barnes' commentary on this passage:

Joh 17:9-10 -
I pray for them - In view of their dangers and trials, he sought the protection and blessing of God on them. His prayer was always answered.
Not for the world - The term world here, as elsewhere, refers to wicked, rebellious, vicious men. The meaning of this expression here seems to be this: Jesus is praying for his disciples. As a reason why God should bless them, he says that they were not of the world; that they had been taken out of the world; that they belonged unto God. The petition was not offered for wicked, perverse, rebellious men, but for those who were the friends of God and were disposed to receive his favors. This passage, then, settles nothing about the question whether Christ prayed for sinners. He then prayed for his disciples, who were not those who hated him and disregarded his favors. He afterward extended the prayer for all who should become Christians, Joh_17:20. When on the cross he prayed for his crucifiers and murderers, Luk_23:34.

Blessings,

John
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Post TheoloJohn
From Robertson's Word Pictures:

Quote:
Not for the world (ou peri tou kosmou). Now at this point in the prayer Christ means. In Joh_17:19 Jesus does pray for the world (for future believers) that it may believe (Joh_17:21). God loves the whole world (Joh_3:16). Christ died for sinners (Rom_5:8) and prayed for sinners (Luk_23:34) and intercedes for sinners (1Jo_2:1.; Rom_8:34; Heb_7:25).


Also, to say that those who don't find Calvinism convincing somehow deny God's sovereignty and would instead enthrone their own sovereignty is a classic example of a "straw man" and ad hominem argumentation. The conclusion only follows if in fact the Calvinist's definition of sovereignty (unilateral absolute coercion) is the only way God ever exercises His sovereignty as revealed in Scripture. It is admitted on all sides that God in some cases does act unilaterally, but it does not follow therefore that He does so in all cases.
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Post Thats the problem Peter, I have read it as a whole BlessedinMsTn
many times actually and I find a recurring theme in the entire book;;;

He came to seek and to save THAT which was lost . . . .there are those that were not his from the beginning therefore he didnt lose them but there was an elected Bride from before the foundations of the world he came fo her

MY SHEEP know my voice,, the good shepard only laid down his life for the SHEEP,,,, the ones who were of his pasture in his foreknowledge

He didnt hope that if he would come down and die a few people might think that this is a real good deed that Jesus did,, feel sorry for him and call him Lord... Oh how silly Peter . . .No No No,, contrare, contrare,, he saw the ones before they were born who wanted to say yes and for them he died....

Not for the world but for the Bride

In Luke 17 he prayed NOT FOR THE WORLD,, no where in that chapter did he pray for the world,, he prayed for the bride present and the bride future,, those who had already came into their positions and those who would soon come into their Bride position

Dont you know that any cant get saved that wants to,, oh no,, the Father must draw them and he only draws those that are his... thats why people can be in the middle of the ocean as my father was on a ship with nothing but sinners all around him and the Holy Ghost began to draw him unto repentence,, he was saved by the drawing of the SPirit, why> Because int he foreknowledge of God he was already saved and the Spirit was calling him,, deep was calling unto deep....... Great is the Mystery of Godliness
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Post Nightsky4
Nevermind. Watermelon Assassin
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Post Peter you show utter disdain for many great men of God BlessedinMsTn
Many great and noted men of the church have proclaimed Calvanism, some of our greatest preachers in history in fact.. its soo sad to see how one man can demean their legacies by calling them clowns

but to each his own
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