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were there any female apostles
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Post John Jett
Yes Shane, (I wasn't quite that sleepy)I understand that, but you were referring to a "spiritual head" of the church and saying that one person, a male pastor is called the "spiritual head". I immediately thought of the scripture you're quoting here, but it sounds like you're trying to replace Christ with a pastor. Where does the scripture say that a pastor/bishop/evangelist/apostle is the spiritual head of a local congregation? I understand that it is inferred, but I was just wondering if you were taking it a bit far by saying that a pastor is the head of a local church in the same way that Christ is. He is a shepherd, but is he "the head"? Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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10/24/08 9:22 am


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Post BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
Yes Shane, (I wasn't quite that sleepy)I understand that, but you were referring to a "spiritual head" of the church and saying that one person, a male pastor is called the "spiritual head". I immediately thought of the scripture you're quoting here, but it sounds like you're trying to replace Christ with a pastor. Where does the scripture say that a pastor/bishop/evangelist/apostle is the spiritual head of a local congregation? I understand that it is inferred, but I was just wondering if you were taking it a bit far by saying that a pastor is the head of a local church in the same way that Christ is. He is a shepherd, but is he "the head"?


Did Christ not leave the Pastor as his gift to the church? As a result is Christ not leading his church through that gift? the Pastor?

If so then Christ through his gifts is the Head of the Church, even the local church.......

Let me put it this way........ Does the President of the US not have a presence in Russia at all time? Yes, through his Ambassador;...... if I live in Russia can I disregard the Ambassador as non important and having no presidential authority? If the President in fact not operating through his APPOINTED AMBASSADOR? Is Christ in fact not operating through is PASTORS?
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10/24/08 9:34 am


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Post John Jett
Sure He operates through pastors, I love pastors! They are shepherds though, not the "Vicars" of Christ. Apostolic succession is a tenant of Catholicism. When the clergy began thinking in terms of authority and power and even to claim more and more power through "Apostolic succession" it began to corrupt them. I just don't think we should use terms like "head of the church" for a pastor when that is reserved for Christ.

To bring this point back on topic, your reasoning for a woman to not be a pastor can not be tied to Ephesians 5:23

I find the NT to be very servant-to-all oriented in spirit. When you read Ephesians 5:23 do you think that Paul is saying that the man is the head so that he can tell the woman what to do? Or, could it be that the man is the head of the woman in that he, as Christ is the head of the church, must lay down all to lift her up and "save" her just as Christ did in Philippians 2:6 . I don't find much in the NT in the way of showing and giving authority as much as receiving glory and honor because of what is done for someone. The glory and "headship" that the husband should be looking for comes from God's reward to him for honoring, loving, and cherishing his wife. Which if you really think about it flew in the face of near-eastern culture where a wife was little more than property to the husband!
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10/24/08 10:02 am


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Post curly
Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this? Acts Enthusiast
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10/24/08 1:10 pm


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Post John Jett
curly wrote:
Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this?


I'm not that old (3Cool, but when I was a kid in the COG in TX, women prayed at one altar and men at the other.
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Post PastorJackson
curly wrote:
Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this?


That is Biblical Hermeneutics, that is the study of the reasons things were done, that is the reason that Paul made the admonition to be silent because the woman and men were separate and they would ask their husbands question and cause disruptions.
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10/24/08 1:30 pm


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Post So tell me brother BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
Sure He operates through pastors, I love pastors! They are shepherds though, not the "Vicars" of Christ. Apostolic succession is a tenant of Catholicism. When the clergy began thinking in terms of authority and power and even to claim more and more power through "Apostolic succession" it began to corrupt them. I just don't think we should use terms like "head of the church" for a pastor when that is reserved for Christ.

To bring this point back on topic, your reasoning for a woman to not be a pastor can not be tied to Ephesians 5:23

I find the NT to be very servant-to-all oriented in spirit. When you read Ephesians 5:23 do you think that Paul is saying that the man is the head so that he can tell the woman what to do? Or, could it be that the man is the head of the woman in that he, as Christ is the head of the church, must lay down all to lift her up and "save" her just as Christ did in Philippians 2:6 . I don't find much in the NT in the way of showing and giving authority as much as receiving glory and honor because of what is done for someone. The glory and "headship" that the husband should be looking for comes from God's reward to him for honoring, loving, and cherishing his wife. Which if you really think about it flew in the face of near-eastern culture where a wife was little more than property to the husband!


Did Annanias and Sapphira lie to men or the Holy Ghost? Were they not answering the questions of mere men? The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ and this Spirit was operating directly through these men... does this not make them SPIRITUAL HEADS?
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10/24/08 2:42 pm


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Post ITs a dead horse BlessedinMsTn
curly wrote:
Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this?


Yes. I used the same argument back in the days when I was a woman preachers biggest defender... only problem is its pure conjecture
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10/24/08 2:43 pm


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Post Bump for John Lett BlessedinMsTn
I would like to dig into more of the conversation as to who Annanias and Sapphira lied to .. men or the Holy Ghost? If these men were not the SPIRITUAL HEAD why would God kill them for lying to mere men?
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10/24/08 5:37 pm


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Post Re: ITs a dead horse PastorJackson
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
curly wrote:
Some one told me that Joyce Myer said that the custom back in those days was that all the men would sit on one side, and all the women would sit on the other side, and back then the women were not allowed to speak out in church. Has any one heard any teaching like this?


Yes. I used the same argument back in the days when I was a woman preachers biggest defender... only problem is its pure conjecture


How do you figure it is argument or conjecture? If you look at my post it is called hermeneutics, why is it if it does not agree with what you like it is conjecture but if you say it, it is correct and we are all wrong. I am getting annoyed at your talking to me and others like we are beneath you. You have no idea how much or little education I have. I do not try to flaunt what I know, the way you can tell how smart a person is, is when they realize how little they truly know. Please be patient with us mere mortals if we are a little slow. Wink I am really not trying to come down on you, you might not realize that you come across that way.
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10/24/08 9:51 pm


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Post Re: So tell me brother curly
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
John Jett wrote:
Sure He operates through pastors, I love pastors! They are shepherds though, not the "Vicars" of Christ. Apostolic succession is a tenant of Catholicism. When the clergy began thinking in terms of authority and power and even to claim more and more power through "Apostolic succession" it began to corrupt them. I just don't think we should use terms like "head of the church" for a pastor when that is reserved for Christ.

To bring this point back on topic, your reasoning for a woman to not be a pastor can not be tied to Ephesians 5:23

I find the NT to be very servant-to-all oriented in spirit. When you read Ephesians 5:23 do you think that Paul is saying that the man is the head so that he can tell the woman what to do? Or, could it be that the man is the head of the woman in that he, as Christ is the head of the church, must lay down all to lift her up and "save" her just as Christ did in Philippians 2:6 . I don't find much in the NT in the way of showing and giving authority as much as receiving glory and honor because of what is done for someone. The glory and "headship" that the husband should be looking for comes from God's reward to him for honoring, loving, and cherishing his wife. Which if you really think about it flew in the face of near-eastern culture where a wife was little more than property to the husband!


Did Annanias and Sapphira lie to men or the Holy Ghost? Were they not answering the questions of mere men? The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ and this Spirit was operating directly through these men... does this not make them SPIRITUAL HEADS?



Without looking up the scripture, I believe he said thou hast not lied unto men but unto the Holy Ghost.
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10/28/08 1:12 am


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Post Re: Pastor Jackson PastorJackson
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
FOLLOW ME as I FOLLOW CHRIST

We must believe that PAUL was the VOICE of his church age and as such he was FOLLOWING CHRIST... He told us to FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS

To now try and say "Well that was Paul"

Paul said if we preach any other doctrines than he preached.. it doesn't matter wer'e an Angel... we would be cursed.. thats a pretty concrete voice to follow......dont ya think?

So why try to diminish his commands to women as if its just a man speaking?

I love how you guys try to make this sound like just some chauvanist man speaking in a chauvnistic society and perhaps this was not Gods command....

Very next verse he took care of those who would try to say "he didn't mean what he said" he took it waaaaaay past his personal opinions...

VERY NEXT VERSE

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

You see.. he brought it back to GOD and the BEGINNING... telling us that his teaching transcends custom and time


Excuse me what do you mean you guys? I have never tried to make it sound like that, next I see what you are saying, but this really contradicts Joel. Why would God pour out his Spirit and all of the gifts that are for "everyone" if he did not want them to be used by 1/2?


Pastor Jackson... do you not read my writing? Honestly, I have always said that women were in perfect order to PROPHESY... but not to teach, preach, correct. lead or instruct men in the ways of God... it puts her out of her place.. her husband is to teach her and the children in the ways of God....

Propesying in every instance of scripture is telling something of DIVINE UTTERANCE>. it is not a prepared sermon of instruction.. When Abagus PROPHESIED he told what was gonna soon happen to Paul...

Women are perfectly in their right to prophesy....... this is not a Five Fold Ministry position in the church.. it is a gift and every believer is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit

Yes I do, jeeze. Perhaps I was not clear, I am talking of the 5 fold. This is for every believer so why exclude the women?


No Pastor the Five Fold is not for women.. because this is the headship of the church.. the gifts that are given to CORRECT the church... and women are forbidden to Rebuke or Correct the Sons of God... it would be just as wrong as allowing your children to correct your wife... nothing against the children but it is out of Divine Order



apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, evangelist First we are all called to be evangelist, so that alone makes your argument false, since that opens women to the 5 fold. Also preacher is open to women. So that is 2 areas that you are wrong on. I am waiting for a rebuttal thanks.
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10/28/08 9:30 am


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Post Re: Bump for John Jett John Jett
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
I would like to dig into more of the conversation as to who Annanias and Sapphira lied to .. men or the Holy Ghost? If these men were not the SPIRITUAL HEAD why would God kill them for lying to mere men?


Sorry I didn't see this Shane, but I think Curly and LordChancellor both answered well, it is obvious that they died for lying to God and it specifically says they did not lie to men.
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10/28/08 10:00 am


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Post Re: Pastor Jackson curly
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
FOLLOW ME as I FOLLOW CHRIST

We must believe that PAUL was the VOICE of his church age and as such he was FOLLOWING CHRIST... He told us to FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS

To now try and say "Well that was Paul"

Paul said if we preach any other doctrines than he preached.. it doesn't matter wer'e an Angel... we would be cursed.. thats a pretty concrete voice to follow......dont ya think?

So why try to diminish his commands to women as if its just a man speaking?

I love how you guys try to make this sound like just some chauvanist man speaking in a chauvnistic society and perhaps this was not Gods command....

Very next verse he took care of those who would try to say "he didn't mean what he said" he took it waaaaaay past his personal opinions...

VERY NEXT VERSE

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

You see.. he brought it back to GOD and the BEGINNING... telling us that his teaching transcends custom and time


Excuse me what do you mean you guys? I have never tried to make it sound like that, next I see what you are saying, but this really contradicts Joel. Why would God pour out his Spirit and all of the gifts that are for "everyone" if he did not want them to be used by 1/2?


Pastor Jackson... do you not read my writing? Honestly, I have always said that women were in perfect order to PROPHESY... but not to teach, preach, correct. lead or instruct men in the ways of God... it puts her out of her place.. her husband is to teach her and the children in the ways of God....

Propesying in every instance of scripture is telling something of DIVINE UTTERANCE>. it is not a prepared sermon of instruction.. When Abagus PROPHESIED he told what was gonna soon happen to Paul...

Women are perfectly in their right to prophesy....... this is not a Five Fold Ministry position in the church.. it is a gift and every believer is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit

Yes I do, jeeze. Perhaps I was not clear, I am talking of the 5 fold. This is for every believer so why exclude the women?


No Pastor the Five Fold is not for women.. because this is the headship of the church.. the gifts that are given to CORRECT the church... and women are forbidden to Rebuke or Correct the Sons of God... it would be just as wrong as allowing your children to correct your wife... nothing against the children but it is out of Divine Order



apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, evangelist First we are all called to be evangelist, so that alone makes your argument false, since that opens women to the 5 fold. Also preacher is open to women. So that is 2 areas that you are wrong on. I am waiting for a rebuttal thanks.


Just to clarify your statement, not all Christians are called to the office of an Evangelist. What you mean is that all Christians are called to be witnesses and disciples.
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10/28/08 5:31 pm


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Post Poimen
John Jett wrote:
Yes Shane, (I wasn't quite that sleepy)I understand that, but you were referring to a "spiritual head" of the church and saying that one person, a male pastor is called the "spiritual head". I immediately thought of the scripture you're quoting here, but it sounds like you're trying to replace Christ with a pastor. Where does the scripture say that a pastor/bishop/evangelist/apostle is the spiritual head of a local congregation? I understand that it is inferred, but I was just wondering if you were taking it a bit far by saying that a pastor is the head of a local church in the same way that Christ is. He is a shepherd, but is he "the head"?


I have not read this thread, just a few of the posts on the last page. But I wanted to comment to the above/.

Look into the Greek for elder and you will find that they (not him) are charged with the care, oversight, instruction, and shepherding of the church. Here's just one passage to consider:

1 Peter 5:1-4

Quote:
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.




Now Christ is the only person called "THE" head of the church. But elders are designated as under shepherds to Him whose the sheep are. They share in His authority. However, it is not a single pastor who has that authority over a single church, but rather a group of pastors or elders who are to share the work.

That is why Peter uses the inclusive term indicative of sharing in the whole of something when he calls himself an elder (sumpresbeteros) instead of just presbeteros (which means elder). He is identifying himself as one among several, a portion of the whole, a part of the eldership (a plurality).

In Acts 20 when Paul sent word to Ephesus did he call for the (single) elder/pastor of the church there or did he call for the (plural) elders/pastors of the church there?

When James instructs the sick among us to call for prayer does he instruct them to call the (single) elder/pastor or to the call the (plural) elders/pastors?

When the writer of Hebrews instructs us to be obedient to leadership does he say obey Him that has the rule over you or does he say obey them that have the rule over you?

When Paul charges Titus and Timothy with helping church plants get full established does he instruct them to appoint a single elder/pastor or a plurality of elders/pastors?
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Post Poimen Bro Bob
Very good, thoughtful post.

Revealing.

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10/28/08 6:57 pm


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Post Original poster is causing confusion The Crumudgeon At Large
I think the original poster of this thread is sowing discord, causing confusion, supporting heresy and ought to be defrocked immediately. Friendly Face
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10/28/08 7:34 pm


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Post Re: Pastor Jackson PastorJackson
curly wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
FOLLOW ME as I FOLLOW CHRIST

We must believe that PAUL was the VOICE of his church age and as such he was FOLLOWING CHRIST... He told us to FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS

To now try and say "Well that was Paul"

Paul said if we preach any other doctrines than he preached.. it doesn't matter wer'e an Angel... we would be cursed.. thats a pretty concrete voice to follow......dont ya think?

So why try to diminish his commands to women as if its just a man speaking?

I love how you guys try to make this sound like just some chauvanist man speaking in a chauvnistic society and perhaps this was not Gods command....

Very next verse he took care of those who would try to say "he didn't mean what he said" he took it waaaaaay past his personal opinions...

VERY NEXT VERSE

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

You see.. he brought it back to GOD and the BEGINNING... telling us that his teaching transcends custom and time


Excuse me what do you mean you guys? I have never tried to make it sound like that, next I see what you are saying, but this really contradicts Joel. Why would God pour out his Spirit and all of the gifts that are for "everyone" if he did not want them to be used by 1/2?


Pastor Jackson... do you not read my writing? Honestly, I have always said that women were in perfect order to PROPHESY... but not to teach, preach, correct. lead or instruct men in the ways of God... it puts her out of her place.. her husband is to teach her and the children in the ways of God....

Propesying in every instance of scripture is telling something of DIVINE UTTERANCE>. it is not a prepared sermon of instruction.. When Abagus PROPHESIED he told what was gonna soon happen to Paul...

Women are perfectly in their right to prophesy....... this is not a Five Fold Ministry position in the church.. it is a gift and every believer is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit

Yes I do, jeeze. Perhaps I was not clear, I am talking of the 5 fold. This is for every believer so why exclude the women?


No Pastor the Five Fold is not for women.. because this is the headship of the church.. the gifts that are given to CORRECT the church... and women are forbidden to Rebuke or Correct the Sons of God... it would be just as wrong as allowing your children to correct your wife... nothing against the children but it is out of Divine Order



apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, evangelist First we are all called to be evangelist, so that alone makes your argument false, since that opens women to the 5 fold. Also preacher is open to women. So that is 2 areas that you are wrong on. I am waiting for a rebuttal thanks.


Just to clarify your statement, not all Christians are called to the office of an Evangelist. What you mean is that all Christians are called to be witnesses and disciples.


Yes we are not called to the office but we are all called to do the work of an Evangelist so what really is the difference?
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10/28/08 8:03 pm


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Post Re: Pastor Jackson curly
PastorJackson wrote:
curly wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
FOLLOW ME as I FOLLOW CHRIST

We must believe that PAUL was the VOICE of his church age and as such he was FOLLOWING CHRIST... He told us to FOLLOW HIS COMMANDS

To now try and say "Well that was Paul"

Paul said if we preach any other doctrines than he preached.. it doesn't matter wer'e an Angel... we would be cursed.. thats a pretty concrete voice to follow......dont ya think?

So why try to diminish his commands to women as if its just a man speaking?

I love how you guys try to make this sound like just some chauvanist man speaking in a chauvnistic society and perhaps this was not Gods command....

Very next verse he took care of those who would try to say "he didn't mean what he said" he took it waaaaaay past his personal opinions...

VERY NEXT VERSE

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

You see.. he brought it back to GOD and the BEGINNING... telling us that his teaching transcends custom and time


Excuse me what do you mean you guys? I have never tried to make it sound like that, next I see what you are saying, but this really contradicts Joel. Why would God pour out his Spirit and all of the gifts that are for "everyone" if he did not want them to be used by 1/2?


Pastor Jackson... do you not read my writing? Honestly, I have always said that women were in perfect order to PROPHESY... but not to teach, preach, correct. lead or instruct men in the ways of God... it puts her out of her place.. her husband is to teach her and the children in the ways of God....

Propesying in every instance of scripture is telling something of DIVINE UTTERANCE>. it is not a prepared sermon of instruction.. When Abagus PROPHESIED he told what was gonna soon happen to Paul...

Women are perfectly in their right to prophesy....... this is not a Five Fold Ministry position in the church.. it is a gift and every believer is entitled to the gifts of the Spirit

Yes I do, jeeze. Perhaps I was not clear, I am talking of the 5 fold. This is for every believer so why exclude the women?


No Pastor the Five Fold is not for women.. because this is the headship of the church.. the gifts that are given to CORRECT the church... and women are forbidden to Rebuke or Correct the Sons of God... it would be just as wrong as allowing your children to correct your wife... nothing against the children but it is out of Divine Order



apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher, evangelist First we are all called to be evangelist, so that alone makes your argument false, since that opens women to the 5 fold. Also preacher is open to women. So that is 2 areas that you are wrong on. I am waiting for a rebuttal thanks.


Just to clarify your statement, not all Christians are called to the office of an Evangelist. What you mean is that all Christians are called to be witnesses and disciples.


Yes we are not called to the office but we are all called to do the work of an Evangelist so what really is the difference?


Oh, brother, there is a major difference. One for example, is the 5fold ministry gifts are the love gifts from Jesus to His body, the church who is here on the earth. They are for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry, and for the edifying of the body. They carry a much greater responsibility and greater level of anointing than those who are not called to function in that office.
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10/28/08 9:00 pm


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Post curly - please explain MayB2Day
You suggested:

Quote:
They carry a much greater responsibility and greater level of anointing than those who are not called to function in that office.


Are you only applying these gifts to preachers? If so, what is your scriptural support for this position/claim?

Do you not think that layman can be gifted in these ways?

Do you not think that a small group leader in a church can be gifted as pastor/teacher?

Would you like to tell layman such as the late Charles Beach or Leonard Albert or Al Taylor that they don't have the gift of evangelism?
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10/29/08 8:51 am


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