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were there any female apostles
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Post Re: Bro. Hodo BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Bro Bob Hodo wrote:
You are setting yourself up, I am just pointing out the obvious.

Quote:
Genesis 3: 14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


I'm just looking for the part that is no longer applicable. I know there are some who don't believe these words anymore, but I see no expiration date.

BB


Perfect stated..... since there is no longer male nor female in Christ.. then I personally believe we should quit preaching against men marrying men.. since we are so elevated spiritually that our natural genders are no longer applicable in this life....


That's up to you. But you make a joke of the scripture. Is it because it doesn't suite your need for superiority over women. Or does the authority of that scripture come second to your authority?


Not making joke of the scriptures.. rather trying to make sense of them.. for you to say that all natural order has been done away with because we are basically now sexless in the eyes of God,, is unbelievable.. to use that scripture to say that the OLD ORDER of women and men are done away with in Christ... is to say that there is also neither "jew nor greek anymore" or also there is no longer "bond nor free" but YES THERE IS.. Paul instructs those that are still in bonds PHYSICALLY to OBEY THEIR MASTERS....... he never taught us that our physical roles are done away with because we are redeemed... the womans desire is still towards her husband anything more or less is out of Divine Order
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Post curly
So,is God blessing those people who claim that their wife is an apostle if it isn't Biblical? Acts Enthusiast
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10/17/08 3:28 am


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Post Curly BlessedinMsTn
curly wrote:
So,is God blessing those people who claim that their wife is an apostle if it isn't Biblical?


God is so awesome that he blesses us in spite of our stupidity.....the rains falls on the just and the unjust
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Post Bro Bob
I am not sure who you are talking about Curly. It doesn't really matter.

Nor am I sure what you are using as your criteria when you say God is blessing them.

I do know that it is dangerous to focus your attention on people. The more charismatic the person, the more ostentatious their claims, the more you should examine the Biblical validity of what they are saying.

No prophet / spokesman of God can oppose his written word. The Bible, (please get this) is NOT INSUFFICIENT in any way. Everything we need to know about God is included. Everything we need to know about achieving a right relationship with him is included.

We need no new revelation. We need no new scripture. We need no modern day APOSTLE, male or female.

Do we need the book of II Acts? II Revelations? NO. A thousand times NO.

God is not a historic figure who is no longer relevant in today's modern society. Obedience is very simply all that is needed.

You need not worry about exposing them, or setting them strait. God himself will defend his eternal truths.

You need only watch, in peace, and your eyes will see it.

After you see it, tell your children so they will not be easily fooled.

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Post Slavery is OK??? John Jett
BlessedinMsTn wrote:

Not making joke of the scriptures.. rather trying to make sense of them.. for you to say that all natural order has been done away with because we are basically now sexless in the eyes of God,, is unbelievable.. to use that scripture to say that the OLD ORDER of women and men are done away with in Christ... is to say that there is also neither "jew nor greek anymore" or also there is no longer "bond nor free" but YES THERE IS.. Paul instructs those that are still in bonds PHYSICALLY to OBEY THEIR MASTERS....... he never taught us that our physical roles are done away with because we are redeemed... the womans desire is still towards her husband anything more or less is out of Divine Order


Shocked So slavery is OK because Paul said for slaves to obey their masters? I think you make my point!

"neither Jew/Greek, Male/Female", means that there is no spiritual difference, Paul wasn't stupid, he knew that in the natural there were men/women, Jew/Greek, of course, so this is a fact of liberation in the spirit. "Head of the wife" doesn't mean you get to be head of all women in the kingdom of God - I'm not arguing for the woman to become head of the home , this is about spiritual authority/equality. Hence, he asked Philemon to accept his slave, Onesimus, as a brother having been converted. So if it be equality in the Kingdom at a spiritual level, then equality it must be. So your argument taken to the end says that since there are slaves in the Bible, and the Bible doesn't condemn slavery, then slavery is the "natural order" of things. It is not, the natural and right order of things is what Christianity brings, liberty to the captive, equality of race and sex

As to the curse of Gen. 3, the "desire will be for your husband .. and he shall rule over you" that is a CURSE! (one of the mind, emotions, and will i.e. "soul") It has nothing to do with sexual desire (you wish it was, what a great deal for men that would be, the chicks want to have sex with us, and we get to tell them what to do, not much of a curse from men's perspective is it?!) Smile , it is desire to have his place, and his "ruling over her" is a curse man, its not what God intended. But right away, you see that every culture since Adam has subjugated women, and women have used sexual bartering to try to gain power over men, a sick cycle really so if you condone one, you must condone the other, they are part of the same curse of sin. Co-regency was the purpose of their union from the beginning, THAT is the Divine order, not the curse. SIN is what brought about the curse. God also cursed the ground which is the means of living (or currency in today's world, the curse is in the ground being unyielding, the financial systems of man are marked by the curse!). God also provided a way of repealing that curse as well! Its called tithing/giving ( Mal 3:11 )


Last edited by John Jett on 10/20/08 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post Re: Slavery is OK??? BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:

Not making joke of the scriptures.. rather trying to make sense of them.. for you to say that all natural order has been done away with because we are basically now sexless in the eyes of God,, is unbelievable.. to use that scripture to say that the OLD ORDER of women and men are done away with in Christ... is to say that there is also neither "jew nor greek anymore" or also there is no longer "bond nor free" but YES THERE IS.. Paul instructs those that are still in bonds PHYSICALLY to OBEY THEIR MASTERS....... he never taught us that our physical roles are done away with because we are redeemed... the womans desire is still towards her husband anything more or less is out of Divine Order


Shocked So slavery is OK because Paul said for slaves to obey their masters? I think you make my point!

"neither Jew/Greek, Male/Female", means that there is no spiritual difference, Paul wasn't stupid, he knew that in the natural there were men/women, Jew/Greek, of course, so this is a fact of liberation in the spirit. "Head of the wife" doesn't mean you get to be head of all women in the kingdom of God - I'm not arguing for the woman to become head of the home , this is about spiritual authority/equality. Hence, he asked Philemon to accept his slave, Onesimus, as a brother having been converted. So if it be equality in the Kingdom at a spiritual level, then equality it must be. So your argument taken to the end says that since there are slaves in the Bible, and the Bible doesn't condemn slavery, then slavery is the "natural order" of things. It is not, the natural and right order of things is what Christianity brings, liberty to the captive, equality of race and sex

As to the curse of Gen. 3, the "desire will be for your husband .. and he shall rule over you" that is a CURSE! (one of the mind, emotions, and will i.e. "soul") It has nothing to do with sexual desire (you wish it was, what a great deal for men that would be, the chicks want to have sex with us, and we get to tell them what to do, not much of a curse from men's perspective is it?!) Smile , it is desire to have his place, and his "ruling over here" is a curse man, its not what God intended. But right away, you see that every culture since Adam has subjugated women, and women have used sexual bartering to try to gain power over men, a sick cycle really so if you condone one, you must condone the other, they are part of the same curse of sin. Co-regency was the purpose of their union from the beginning, THAT is the Divine order, not the curse. SIN is what brought about the curse. God also cursed the ground which is the means of living (or currency in today's world, the curse is in the ground being unyielding, the financial systems of man are marked by the curse!). God also provided a way of repealing that curse as well! Its called tithing/giving ( Mal 3:11 )


tell all of this to the next pregnant woman you meet.. maybe it will work for her in the delivery room.....
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Post Re: Slavery is OK??? John Jett
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
tell all of this to the next pregnant woman you meet.. maybe it will work for her in the delivery room.....


Tell your opinion to your daughter when she is called by the Holy Ghost to preach the gospel and you somehow know better that He. Your terse, one-line, ill-conceived responses have run their course with me I will not bother responding to you any further if you can do no better. You didn't answer my question about slavery because it shows the logical conclusion of your position.
Good day.
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Post Re: Slavery is OK??? BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
tell all of this to the next pregnant woman you meet.. maybe it will work for her in the delivery room.....


Tell your opinion to your daughter when she is called by the Holy Ghost to preach the gospel and you somehow know better that He. Your terse, one-line, ill-conceived responses have run their course with me I will not bother responding to you any further if you can do no better. You didn't answer my question about slavery because it shows the logical conclusion of your position.
Good day.


I would know it was not the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost does not contradict the WORD OF GOD... and the WORD says this about my daughter, should I ever have one

I Tim 5:14 - I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

I see nothing about his desire for her to guide the House of God.. nor to preach nor to have authority... Pauls shows clearly the perfect role of a woman
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Post Re: I believe this scriptural reference Link
BlessedinMsTn wrote:

Are you going to also try to tell us that MEN doesn't really mean Men?



I am saying you need to dig deeper than how the translators translate it, and even deeper than how the glossary in strong's renders it, and find out what the Greek word means before making doctrinal proclamations.

According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia,
"Greek aner, "human," can simply designate a member of the human species, and in the plural hoi andres frequently refers to both men and women (e.g., Mt. 14:35)..."

This is similar to many other languages. Consider Spanish.

chico=boy
chica=girl
chicas=girls
chicos=boys, or boys and girls

See <http://books.google.com/books?id=6OJvO2jMCr8C&pg=PA432&lpg=PA432&dq=aner+greek+plural+male+or+female&source=web&ots=Ftm_BhqYvA&sig=Webjz3xzc6WdokvG2b-vkFg6mTU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result>
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... R. Keith Whitt
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Great stuff.....


I would say you are way too kind, but then I've talked to your staff Smile

Seriously, this is an issue that is way too important to treat with a cursory examination of a few prooftexts. We either have to admit:

1. Scripture contradicts itself (women can minister, then they can't...),
2. Blessed is right in his tunnel vision, predefined one-verse approach, or
3. We need to dig deep to see what the Spirit IS speaking to the church through Scritpure and the his leading.

Obviously, the first two just won't satisfy an enquiring mind (sorry, Blessed....)

Keith
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Post curly
Maybe we'll have to wait until we get to heaven and ask God about all of our questions. Acts Enthusiast
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... BlessedinMsTn
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Great stuff.....


I would say you are way too kind, but then I've talked to your staff Smile

Seriously, this is an issue that is way too important to treat with a cursory examination of a few prooftexts. We either have to admit:

1. Scripture contradicts itself (women can minister, then they can't...),
2. Blessed is right in his tunnel vision, predefined one-verse approach, or
3. We need to dig deep to see what the Spirit IS speaking to the church through Scritpure and the his leading.

Obviously, the first two just won't satisfy an enquiring mind (sorry, Blessed....)

Keith


Oh for the days when we took the scriptures for what they said and didnt try to explain away the things that do not FIT the times
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... R. Keith Whitt
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Great stuff.....


I would say you are way too kind, but then I've talked to your staff Smile

Seriously, this is an issue that is way too important to treat with a cursory examination of a few prooftexts. We either have to admit:

1. Scripture contradicts itself (women can minister, then they can't...),
2. Blessed is right in his tunnel vision, predefined one-verse approach, or
3. We need to dig deep to see what the Spirit IS speaking to the church through Scritpure and the his leading.

Obviously, the first two just won't satisfy an enquiring mind (sorry, Blessed....)

Keith


Oh for the days when we took the scriptures for what they said and didnt try to explain away the things that do not FIT the times



Shane:

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it Smile Or, is it something about a beam and a mote Laughing I dunno.

Curly:

I (and many others) have argued that Scripture includes intentional tension. That is, Scripture is living (God-breathed) and has an element in it that requires continual reexamination in light of our circumstances (David and the shewbread; Jesus and the antitheses -- "You have heard it said, but I say..."). If there were easy answers, we would use the Bible as a quick reference guide (like some on here do!). God intends for us to dig deep now, not wait until we get to heaven.

Keith
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... BlessedinMsTn
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
Tom Sterbens wrote:
Great stuff.....


I would say you are way too kind, but then I've talked to your staff Smile

Seriously, this is an issue that is way too important to treat with a cursory examination of a few prooftexts. We either have to admit:

1. Scripture contradicts itself (women can minister, then they can't...),
2. Blessed is right in his tunnel vision, predefined one-verse approach, or
3. We need to dig deep to see what the Spirit IS speaking to the church through Scritpure and the his leading.

Obviously, the first two just won't satisfy an enquiring mind (sorry, Blessed....)

Keith


Oh for the days when we took the scriptures for what they said and didnt try to explain away the things that do not FIT the times



Shane:

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it Smile Or, is it something about a beam and a mote Laughing I dunno.

Curly:

I (and many others) have argued that Scripture includes intentional tension. That is, Scripture is living (God-breathed) and has an element in it that requires continual reexamination in light of our circumstances (David and the shewbread; Jesus and the antitheses -- "You have heard it said, but I say..."). If there were easy answers, we would use the Bible as a quick reference guide (like some on here do!). God intends for us to dig deep now, not wait until we get to heaven.

Keith


DO you dig so deep that you dig all the way to complete rebellion against its very clear teachings? Keep digging and you will have the woman as the head of the home... after all that is the custom of our day now...

Again.... you cannot dig deep enough to make scriptures support what it vehemently denies.... I SUFFER NOT A WOMAN TO TEACH A MAN

Dig all you want and you will wind right back to the these words and unfortunately they just won't go away.....

You can dig all the way back to Genesis and find where it was forbidden... and then dig all the way to Revelations and it is still forbidden
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... R. Keith Whitt
BlessedinMsTn wrote:


DO you dig so deep that you dig all the way to complete rebellion against its very clear teachings? Keep digging and you will have the woman as the head of the home... after all that is the custom of our day now...

Again.... you cannot dig deep enough to make scriptures support what it vehemently denies.... I SUFFER NOT A WOMAN TO TEACH A MAN

Dig all you want and you will wind right back to the these words and unfortunately they just won't go away.....

You can dig all the way back to Genesis and find where it was forbidden... and then dig all the way to Revelations and it is still forbidden


1. As you know the Bible was not written in King James English. Anytime a word is translated into another language an element of the original is lost, hidden, or mistranslated (due to the bias of the translator -- that's the reason every RSV should be thrown away!). We "dig" to recover the original meaning, nuances, and authorial intent that may not be evident in English. This is then applied to the culture in which we minister, or is Scripture a concrete book for you? That is, it has only first-century meaning for us today. After all, none of us are Corinthians, Romans, Timothy, etc., so what we can apply today is really limited, according to your view.

2. Your prooftext (1 Tim 2:12) about a women not teaching a man was written in the present infinitive. It can well be translated, "At this point in time, I do not allow a woman to teach...." If he wanted to say that a woman may never teach, there were clear grammatical ways of saying that, but Paul did not use them, though he used them elswhere to prohibit things permanently. Perhaps, digging -- which is what I call intense Bible study -- is not so bad after all.

3. So you believe Scripture is contradictory?

Did Deborah (also a prophetess; Jud 4:4) not lead (i.e., exercise authority over men) Israel -- the church in the wilderness according to Stephen?

Does not a prophetess teach and conduct ministry (read Hulda's "Thus saith the Lord" to men in 2 Kgs 22:14-20; and Anna's message of salvation in Luke 2:26)?

Do female deacons (Phebe in Rom 16:1-2, where she is to be received "in the Lord") not exercise authority in the church?

Did Priscilla not help educate (teach) Apollos (Acts 18:26)? Interesting how many times she is named first, contrary to cultural norms (Acts 18:18; Rom 16:3)! What role did she serve in the church that met at her house (1 Cor 16:19)?

What do you propose that Junia did that distinguished her from others among the apostles (using your view of Romans 16:7)?

What is it your wife does, if it is not teaching? You've made it plain that you stopped her from preaching. And have you ever heard her teach? Then, did she not teach you?

Incidentally, Rev 2:20 does not condemn Jezebel for teaching (contra your view), but for the intent of her teaching -- to lead people astray.

4. If it wasn't for people digging into Scripture, there would be no Pentecostal/charismatic movement today. And you would not own a business as that would make you one of the "rich" condemned by the historical church.

5. Do you endorse slavery, which was common in the first-century and accepted in the NT (Eph 6:5-9)? If not, then are you not making part of the NT culturally relevant -- and doing what you are decrying of others, including me?

6. Things are not quite as black and white as you would like. When you actually answer these concerns -- point by point, then we can continue the discussion. I'm done arguing with someone who refuses to even consider alternate views, demands that the discussion be limited to your predifined criteria, so that you get the results you want; you avoid answering legitimate questions, then question the person's motives/ability (rebelliion??? You don't know me do you?) when they disagree and offer alternate views.

Or shall I expect another subterfuge from you?

Keith
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Post HighlyFavoured
Keith Whitt...


What an awesome post...I have been keeping track on this thread..and Blessed is really trying to pull some strings here.

I was called into the ministry at the age of 27....but held off because I wasn't sure where I stood on this subject. SO..I started digging...the more I dug in scripture the more I found that I had been taught wrong...finallly I had the Lord convict me of it...I heard him clearly ask me one day " Are you studying to validate yourself?...I called you..not man". From that day I know where I stand..

My husband always senses when I have something to preach/teach about..and gladly gives the me pulpit. I am not "in authorty" over him...I know my place...BUT he also recognizes the gift that God has placed in me and pushes me farther into my calling. He is truly a blessing in my life..he challenges me in every area.

Sorry...but I will hold firm that women can hold an office..and can preach and teach. Jesus came to change these narrow minded mind sets.

I will teach my daughter how to submit to her husband...but I will not try to drown out the call of God on her life..and I am praying that she finds a husband that can recognize it and push her farther into her destiny.
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Blessed..btw...if you have pulled your wife out of the pulpit..shame on you!!!

I remember going to your website one time...not long after ya'll went thru a fiery trial..and your wife preached the house down...I just sat there with tears streaming down my face as God moved in my life.

But I guess since that was a woman ministering to a woman..that was biblical??

Hogwash.
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Post Highly Favoured BlessedinMsTn
HighlyFavoured wrote:
Blessed..btw...if you have pulled your wife out of the pulpit..shame on you!!!

I remember going to your website one time...not long after ya'll went thru a fiery trial..and your wife preached the house down...I just sat there with tears streaming down my face as God moved in my life.

But I guess since that was a woman ministering to a woman..that was biblical??

Hogwash.


Your post is respected and appreciated. I will be the first to recognize the touch of God on my wifes life and she does as well. She and I both came to the understanding that the place her ministry would be more beneficial and placed would be to other women.. she does that full time now.. speaking to women, never trying to teach men... not only recognizing her calling but also her place.. its actually a beautiful thing....... A woman in all of history has never been allowed to rebuke a man... Preaching is filled with rebuke and correction and no matter how far you dig..... you can never find an allowance for it.... it's just in Gods order...

Again, I thank God for your calling and should you choose to walk in the calling of a preacher then I would show you nothing but honor.. if I were in a service where you were preaching I would respect the Word of God and sit and recieve...... However, if I must be honest and if you asked me I would tell you that I do not believe it is Gods perfect place for a woman to be.....

I truly hope my words do not offend you.

Blessings
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Nope..not offended.

I have full assurance that in the end...I will be held accountable to God..not man.

And I am at peace with that.

I didn't ask for this calling on my life...or to walk in the office of a prophet...but it's there...whether it's to teach/preach to men or woman..he never specified..he just said go..and I finally answered to the call.

Have a blessed day!
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Post Re: Keith Whitt - thanks for your posts on this thread... BlessedinMsTn
Bro. Whitt

May I say how much I have always appreciated the tones of your post, I have and will continue to see the Word as more concrete than you propose it to be. If not, then who is the final authority? Who should we trust to correctly interpret it all for us? Are you telling us that you have interpreted it correctly? If so, then wonderful my brother. Can you say with complete assuredness that you are have attained that level? If so, then I am ready to follow.

If not then I feel very safe standing on the plain teaching of the scriptures concerning the place of men and women.

I have read your post, please don't think I havn't just skimmed through them but have given each of your example and honest examination.... I am prepared to address them now....

To me Brother, this goes beyond a woman preaching, this comes to the subject of "Proper Place or Positiing" in Gods Divine Order. How would it see to you if Christ had tried to place himself above his Father?

He never did it? Why not Brother, and please read my words... Why did Christ not try to instruct the Father? It was out of order and has been from the beginning.

Why can you and I as men not instruct Christ? Because he is our head.. we are under him in Gods Divine Order

Why can your children not instruct you wife have any authority over her? Because it is out of order

Why can a woman not rebuke a man nor have authority over him? Because my brother, it is the perversion of Gods order, is it not?

Now, lets look at your examples.... lets look at all your "exceptions" rather than the rule......

Can you at least agree with me that in all of history the MAN is traditionally in the Word of God, the leader? Except of course for Jezebel

Does scripture not tell us "I sought for a MAN"

Even in the original covenant.. was the Covenant not made through the circumcision of the MALE? The female could only enter into Covenant with God through the male?

We are talking about a God that changes not, arnt we? So an honest observation at all of history will confirm to us Gods ideal, will it not?

YOU SAID

1. As you know the Bible was not written in King James English. Anytime a word is translated into another language an element of the original is lost, hidden, or mistranslated (due to the bias of the translator -- that's the reason every RSV should be thrown away!). We "dig" to recover the original meaning, nuances, and authorial intent that may not be evident in English. This is then applied to the culture in which we minister, or is Scripture a concrete book for you? That is, it has only first-century meaning for us today. After all, none of us are Corinthians, Romans, Timothy, etc., so what we can apply today is really limited, according to your view.

MY RESPONSE

You may not believe this but I was aware that the Bible was not written in King James English. However I do believe in the Sovereignty of God and I believe the very same God that protected his Word and used humans to give us his words was just as able to protect it through translation to King James......

With that said. I also realize human frailties and I acknowledge that some words have lost original meaning......... and concerning women in ministry I could "go there" with you unless Paul had been aware of your attempt to undermine his words........ and he made provision for that by causing the issue to transcend culture and he brings it all the way back to EDEN.


Honest questions brother.

<B> YOU SAID<B>
2. Your prooftext (1 Tim 2:12) about a women not teaching a man was written in the present infinitive. It can well be translated, "At this point in time, I do not allow a woman to teach...." If he wanted to say that a woman may never teach, there were clear grammatical ways of saying that, but Paul did not use them, though he used them elswhere to prohibit things permanently. Perhaps, digging -- which is what I call intense Bible study -- is not so bad after all.

<B>MY RESPONSE<B>

Bro. Whitt, I take comfort in the fact that Paul does not pin this subject on culture but rather on "Beginnings" and Divine Order. So may I ask you how long in your understanding does he place a ban on "Bishops being the husband of one wife" was that also for a "period of time" did he use the grammar that you said was at his disposal to clarify this subject?

<B> YOU SAID <B>

3. So you believe Scripture is contradictory?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>

NOT AT ALL

YOU SAID

Did Deborah (also a prophetess; Jud 4:4) not lead (i.e., exercise authority over men) Israel -- the church in the wilderness according to Stephen?

<B>MY RESPONSE<B>

Brother all women can prophesy. In our church any woman that has a Prophecy that she is willing to have judged by the elders is given the freedom to prophecy which is a "DIVINE UTTERANCE"

Do you not find it the least bit ironic that when referring to men in the NT. when referring to them as preaching the word prophesy is NEVER USED.. only with women......Why is this? Because not ONE TIME is a woman found PREACHING in the NT......

Let me define my understanding of preaching Bro. Whitt, you tell me where I am wrong... Actually let's let the first church age Messenger, Paul do that for us....

PREACH THE WORD - Ok, what does that mean... REBUKE, REPROVE, EXHORT

When did God ever in all of history allow a woman to rebuke a man?

Why would he start now?

Now, more about Deborah... you know as well as I do that scriptures teach us that ALL MEN had gone astray and NO MAN would do the job and just as God used a donkey... or even sinners before he will use what he must.. his ideal is to use a man

Deborah was referred to as a "mother in Israel" she WAS NOT Israels spiritual leader.. she was their JUDGE.. the JUDGES were the political leaders.. in war and otherwise....

Even Deborah knew she was OUT OF PLACE.... let her tell us in her own words

Judg 4:5 - And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.


Did they come to her for anything else besides her political position? NO.. she was a JUDGE.. she was a political leader.. not their PASTOR

God has always allowed women in political leadership because that is NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.. that is the KINGDOM OF DARKNESS of which Divine order means nothing

Lets continue


She begged Barak a MAN to lead the people of God.. he was too much of a coward to take his rightful place the leader and SHE KNEW SHE WAS OUT OF ORDER..... and she told him so

Judges 4:9 - And she said, I will surely go with thee: notwithstanding the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh.

SHE TOLD HIM that the HONOR should go to a MAN not a WOMAN but because he WOULD NOT LEAD - she had to..... she was the EXCEPTION and NOT THE IDEAL

But look at what she says here once the battle is over

She did not say she arose as a PASTOR or LEADER she simply served a MOTHER to keep the nation together until Gods MAN would RISE UP and this man would be BARAK

Judges 5:7 The inhabitants of] the villages ceased, they ceased in Israel, until that I Deborah arose, that I arose a mother in Israel.

Then finally watch as Israel gets it IN ORDER ---- they along with Deborah recognize that Deborah is out of her place in having to lead the men of Israel -

Judges 5:12 - Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead thy captivity captive, thou son of Abinoam.


Awake Deborah and SING - Arise BARAK and LEAD

Finally the MAN God desired to use..... after Deborah served as a MOTHER in Israel.. he rose to his rightful place.. Deborah went to her rightful place.. and now BARAK is called to LEAD


<B>YOU SAID<B>

Does not a prophetess teach and conduct ministry (read Hulda's "Thus saith the Lord" to men in 2 Kgs 22:14-20; and Anna's message of salvation in Luke 2:26)?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>

No they do not brother... a Prophetess gives a "thus saith the Lord" by divine utterance..... I find it so ironic that in the OT when one prophesied they were telling about "What was gonna happen" but now you guys try to make Prophesying TEACHINg or PREACHING... tell you what to make this fair... can you show ONE INSTANCE in the OT where Prophesying was anything besides "Forthtelling"?

If you can then we will talk more about what a Prophets supposed to do. THEY PROPHESY - they FORETELL

Hulda was not TEACHING, please brother.. please at least acknowledge she was FORETELLINg

It is amazing Bro. Whitt how you try to make Huldah some kind of leader of men.. when your own scriptures tell us she was the seamstress.. keeper of the warddrobe -

II KINGS 22:15 - Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, [even] all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

WOW, a perfect example of PROPHESYING - I beg you Bro. Whitt what was she teaching? What was her sermon title? or her lesson title? She was not LEADING anyone or anything.. she was operating in the place that God has always allowed women to operate "DIVINE UTTERANCE OF FUTURE EVENTS"

Now when we arrive at the NT... you will try to tell us that when a woman is allowed to PROPHESY she is allowed to preach..... so for fair argument I beg you to show me ONE TIME in the OT where Prophesying meant anything other than what you just saw HULDAH doing........ when did the meaning change? When you dug and found the REAL meaning of Prophesying?

<B> YOU SAID <B>

Do female deacons (Phebe in Rom 16:1-2, where she is to be received "in the Lord") not exercise authority in the church?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>

Oh dear Brother Whitt. those translators might have had more Divine Protection than you acknowledge when they translated this word into Servant... could it be that they knew that GOD CHANGES NOT and he had forbidden for a woman to have any authority over a man.......

I love how you AFTER DIGGING use the word DEACON here when Paul explains rather plainly her truly role in the church... she was a SUCCOURER

a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources

She was a woman who SERVED as a patroness... she was obviously a wealthy women who used her resources to AID PEOPLE

How you can make a church Deacon out of this woman... when scripture forbids it.. just blows me away dear brother......

You cannot create what God has forbidden!

<B> YOU SAID <B>

Did Priscilla not help educate (teach) Apollos (Acts 18:26)? Interesting how many times she is named first, contrary to cultural norms (Acts 18:18; Rom 16:3)! What role did she serve in the church that met at her house (1 Cor 16:19)?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>

And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

Notice Priscilla was SITTING IN THE CHURCH LISTENING.... when she HEARD Apollos preaching..... She was not LEADINg.. she was listening.... she and her husband (THEM) invited him home together they told him about a more perfect way...

End of story.. case dismissed.. nothing more, nothing less.... a private conversation in the confines of a womans home.. whre God happens to make her queen.. of her home... she was in perfect order here with her husband.....

Again not ONE TIME do we see her leading anything....

Concerning what role did she play at the church in their home? Probably the same one she played in the local church.. sitting and listening and loving people

Again until you can answer that question concretely.. .you know better than to build a doctrine on silence.

<B> YOU SAID <B>

What do you propose that Junia did that distinguished her from others among the apostles (using your view of Romans 16:7)?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>
Again, silence, we can do nothing here.. we have nothing concrete, this scripture is debatable and you must acknowledge that.. and as such no doctrine can rest on this scripture.

<B> YOU SAID <B>

What is it your wife does, if it is not teaching? You've made it plain that you stopped her from preaching. And have you ever heard her teach? Then, did she not teach you?

<B> MY RESPONSE <B>

Brother, I would never disrespect you.. but you have mispoken here.. read her own testimony.. she came to me about her desire to speak only to men.... I made her do NOTHING



Bro. Whitt,, which questions have I refused to discuss that causes you to say that you will no longer discuss this?
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Posts: 6126
10/22/08 10:53 am


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