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were there any female apostles
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Post Re: Junia BlessedinMsTn
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
It helps if we actually look at what the Bible says -- without reading into it our biases and prejudices -- and then examine what we find in light of the understanding of those closer to the time it was written.

1. Junia was a female apostle. The Greek is pretty clear on this and Romans 16 is a who's who of female leadership in ministry. We can play semantics (preaching/teaching; corporate/private ministry) all we want, but the Bible is clear about the role of women.

2. There are no extant referrences of a male named Junia or Junias in the first-century. In fact, Junias is not a first-century name period, contrary to the biases and eisegesis of the Dallas Theological Seminary writers. Check the archives of first-century names for the primary, unvarnished evidence. I have.

3. Chrysostum clearly understood Junia to be a female apostle and rejoiced for her ministry.

4. Women were very active in the church during the first four centuries. I am sure that it is just coincidental that the Spirit left the church about the same time that men put the brakes on the ministry of women.

We've been down this same road many times, but some just refuse to accept facts. Prejudices are more important or comforting (or controlling???) than truth.

For the record, I was against women pastors until I actually began to dig (not prooftext or eisegete) into what Scripture says.

Keith


R. Keith

Can you give us one scriptural reference of a woman being in any authority or leading or preaching in a local NT Church in the NT?

There are hundreds of references to MEN but I anticipate ONE SCRIPTURE that shows CLEARLY not vaguely .... one woman being the SPEAKER, PASTOR, TEACHER or PASTOR of any NT church.....
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Post According to the early Father BlessedinMsTn
Junia was a man

"The church father Origen (died A.D. 252) referred to Junias as a man (MPG 14: 1289), and the early church historian Epiphanius (died A.D. 403) explicitly uses a masculine pronoun of Junias and seems to have specific information about him when he says that "Junias, of whom Paul makes mention, became bishop of Apameia of Syria" (Index disciplulorum 125.19- 20).1

PLEASE READ THIS SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, [b]Men and brethren[/b], ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Where are the females among the Apostles and Elders in the CLEAR SCRIPTURAL precedence above?

Come on folks,, they didn't exist
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Post honestly PastorJackson
Omission does not mean prohibition. There is alot that we do now that is not mentioned in the New Testament. Please tell me where it is prohibited for a Woman to be used as a Apostle? Joel says in the last days the Spirit will be poured out on all mankind men and women. All Apostle means is one that is sent the great commission does this. So if you really want to split hairs technically one could call them that. So unless you don't believe in Apostles today, makes you go hmmmm. Rolling Eyes
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10/14/08 9:33 pm


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Post Re: honestly BlessedinMsTn
PastorJackson wrote:
Omission does not mean prohibition. There is alot that we do now that is not mentioned in the New Testament. Please tell me where it is prohibited for a Woman to be used as a Apostle? Joel says in the last days the Spirit will be poured out on all mankind men and women. All Apostle means is one that is sent the great commission does this. So if you really want to split hairs technically one could call them that. So unless you don't believe in Apostles today, makes you go hmmmm. Rolling Eyes


Pastor Jackson, I can go half way with you in this argument... I will be the first to note that there we Apostles in the NT that did not carry the mandate or authority of Paul or the Original 12... such as Barnabas who had no authority nor ever performed any miracles......

However, until the argument can be concretely sealed that Junias was even a woman... many church fathers disagree then the argument can go no further.... if she was truly a woman... then the next part of the argument must be fought.. was she an APOSTLE or KNOWN among the Apostles?

One the above two arguments are CONCRETLY clear then we can go to the next argument...... Does the word APOSTLE in the NT mean "someone in authority" or simply a "sent one"

Unless we believe that Paul was Bi Polar or even worse a liar... there is no way to match his statements that OVERWHELMINGLY comdemn women in leadership and then giving honor to a woman in leadership... scripture cannot contradict itself.....

In all of the references of Acts.. when Apostles and Elders are mentioned.. it is always followed with "Men and Brethren" no sisters mentioned as Apostles or Elders in the early church
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Post Re: honestly PastorJackson
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
Omission does not mean prohibition. There is alot that we do now that is not mentioned in the New Testament. Please tell me where it is prohibited for a Woman to be used as a Apostle? Joel says in the last days the Spirit will be poured out on all mankind men and women. All Apostle means is one that is sent the great commission does this. So if you really want to split hairs technically one could call them that. So unless you don't believe in Apostles today, makes you go hmmmm. Rolling Eyes


Pastor Jackson, I can go half way with you in this argument... I will be the first to note that there we Apostles in the NT that did not carry the mandate or authority of Paul or the Original 12... such as Barnabas who had no authority nor ever performed any miracles......

However, until the argument can be concretely sealed that Junias was even a woman... many church fathers disagree then the argument can go no further.... if she was truly a woman... then the next part of the argument must be fought.. was she an APOSTLE or KNOWN among the Apostles?

One the above two arguments are CONCRETLY clear then we can go to the next argument...... Does the word APOSTLE in the NT mean "someone in authority" or simply a "sent one"

Unless we believe that Paul was Bi Polar or even worse a liar... there is no way to match his statements that OVERWHELMINGLY comdemn women in leadership and then giving honor to a woman in leadership... scripture cannot contradict itself.....

In all of the references of Acts.. when Apostles and Elders are mentioned.. it is always followed with "Men and Brethren" no sisters mentioned as Apostles or Elders in the early church


Ok am I mistaken or does Paul give his opinion not a direct thus says the Lord?
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10/14/08 9:51 pm


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Post Pastor Jackson, I agree in part... Postmodern Preacher
not everything is recorded in Scripture. That is what theology is, the interpreting of Scripture.

So although the Scripture doesn't mention everything, you can't build a doctrine or belief on silence either.

We can exegete where Scripture is clear, infer and do our best hermeneutic where Scripture is not clear. But it is impossible to build upon silence, we must be silent where the Bible is silent, speak where the Bible speaks.

As such, I personally see no place where women served as apostles. They had a powerful role in all of Scripture, but apostles? Not in my opinion at this point of my study.

I'm still open and learning...

Bless you all.
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Post I believe this scriptural reference BlessedinMsTn
Brings tons of clarity to the scenery of the local churches in the NT..... this meeting took place among Apostles and Elders.. and we see who was in that meeting.... MEN, BRETHREN

PLEASE READ THIS SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.

4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Where are the females among the Apostles and Elders in the CLEAR SCRIPTURAL precedence above?

Come on folks,, they didn't exist
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Post Re: honestly BlessedinMsTn
PastorJackson wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
PastorJackson wrote:
Omission does not mean prohibition. There is alot that we do now that is not mentioned in the New Testament. Please tell me where it is prohibited for a Woman to be used as a Apostle? Joel says in the last days the Spirit will be poured out on all mankind men and women. All Apostle means is one that is sent the great commission does this. So if you really want to split hairs technically one could call them that. So unless you don't believe in Apostles today, makes you go hmmmm. Rolling Eyes


Pastor Jackson, I can go half way with you in this argument... I will be the first to note that there we Apostles in the NT that did not carry the mandate or authority of Paul or the Original 12... such as Barnabas who had no authority nor ever performed any miracles......

However, until the argument can be concretely sealed that Junias was even a woman... many church fathers disagree then the argument can go no further.... if she was truly a woman... then the next part of the argument must be fought.. was she an APOSTLE or KNOWN among the Apostles?

One the above two arguments are CONCRETLY clear then we can go to the next argument...... Does the word APOSTLE in the NT mean "someone in authority" or simply a "sent one"

Unless we believe that Paul was Bi Polar or even worse a liar... there is no way to match his statements that OVERWHELMINGLY comdemn women in leadership and then giving honor to a woman in leadership... scripture cannot contradict itself.....

In all of the references of Acts.. when Apostles and Elders are mentioned.. it is always followed with "Men and Brethren" no sisters mentioned as Apostles or Elders in the early church


Ok am I mistaken or does Paul give his opinion not a direct thus says the Lord?


Pastor Jackson.. he takes it way past his personal opinion.. when he lends credence to his command by circumventing culture and time.. he brings us to EDEN and tells us that this law of God was established in Eden....
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10/14/08 10:45 pm


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Post Bro Bob
God would have got this right if he had just let us help him understand our fine American culture.

..........................................................


If Paul, who wrote half the New Testament and almost all the doctrine of the Church referred to himself as an apostle "born out of due season", and even made allowance that some might not consider him to be an apostle...

... then what would an "apostle" born today be?

Is there a man (or woman) alive with the authority to write scripture, adding to the New Testament?

Paul addressed this also. (Para) I don't care who brings you another doctrine other than the one we have preached to you, I don't care if it is supposed to be a letter from ME. I don't care "IF IT IS AN ANGEL (EMMA?) sent from heaven, don't believe it!

In our own lifetime there have been many who claimed to be apostles.

Deceivers all.

Some of them claimed to have received doctrine from God for us, adding to the Bible or replacing it altogether. ( Joseph Smith? )

Deceivers ALL.

How many times are we warned in scripture, "Be not deceived." ? Now reckon why that is in there?

Because we are dumber than sheep!

Found yourself a modern day Apostle?

And it's a woman?

Found yourself a 17 foot tall female angel?

Is there someone that Louis Farakan says is the Messiah?

Indulge yourself. Let me know how that turns out for you.

I think I'll just stick with the w o r d. I will stand here flat footed all by myself if I have to.

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Post Bro. WHitt BlessedinMsTn
Hey Bro. I am waiting for your response as I would love to see what examples you can share
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Post Re: Bro. WHitt R. Keith Whitt
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Hey Bro. I am waiting for your response as I would love to see what examples you can share


Shane:

I've offered on two occasions to send you a copy of the lesson I wrote on Romans 16 for the Evangelical SS Commentary and you said you want it, but you never did give me an email address to which to send it.

Others and I have shown you the Scriptures dealing with women in ministry many times, but you use the tired it-doesn't-mean-what-it-says argument. Time for me is too precious to spend it arguing with someone who cannot be convinced.

I've stated my preliminary evidence. When you refute it -- from primary sources -- we'll continue.

Keith
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Post Re: Bro. WHitt BlessedinMsTn
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Hey Bro. I am waiting for your response as I would love to see what examples you can share


Shane:

I've offered on two occasions to send you a copy of the lesson I wrote on Romans 16 for the Evangelical SS Commentary and you said you want it, but you never did give me an email address to which to send it.

Others and I have shown you the Scriptures dealing with women in ministry many times, but you use the tired it-doesn't-mean-what-it-says argument. Time for me is too precious to spend it arguing with someone who cannot be convinced.

I've stated my preliminary evidence. When you refute it -- from primary sources -- we'll continue.

Keith


Bro. Witt, I fail to see why I must spend tons of times reading writings that belabor the point and try to create a picture from ones own understanding of scripture.... when we can quickly and pointedly address one issue here on the board

The question is simple.....

Is there ONE EXAMPLE of a woman LEADING, PREACHING or PASTORING in the NT local churches? We have many recorded sermons of men.. but not one of a woman, why?

Is there one CLEAR SCRIPTURE that shows a woman preaching in the NT.. without having to try and create something from silence?

If there is not then why is more study deemed necessary? The fact would be simple, no women were included among the Apostles or Elders... only the "Men and Brethren"
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Post Link
Jason Adams wrote:
UNCbluebleeder, the text says, "who are of note among the apostles".

It does not say 'who are of note to the apostles'.

The word among strongly suggests she is one of the apostles. For centuries the male chavinists among us have argued against women having any leadership role in church.

That tradition certainly continues today.



This passage is ambiguous in English. Are Andronichus and Junia apostles who are notable? Or are they non-apostles whom the apostles considered notable?

I asked a retired Classics (Greek and Latin) professor who was the chair at a state university, and is now involved in teaching ministry and eldership, about this. He said the passage is ambiguous in Greek as well.
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Post Re: I believe this scriptural reference Link
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Brings tons of clarity to the scenery of the local churches in the NT..... this meeting took place among Apostles and Elders.. and we see who was in that meeting.... MEN, BRETHREN


I need to ask someone who knows Greek about this, but I operate under the assumption that a masculine plural can refer to all men or to both men and women. 'Brethren' may refer to men and women as I understand it. many languages are like that. I may have heard or read the same about Greek. But I'm not sure.

Does anyone know for sure?
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Post Re: I believe this scriptural reference BlessedinMsTn
Link wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Brings tons of clarity to the scenery of the local churches in the NT..... this meeting took place among Apostles and Elders.. and we see who was in that meeting.... MEN, BRETHREN


I need to ask someone who knows Greek about this, but I operate under the assumption that a masculine plural can refer to all men or to both men and women. 'Brethren' may refer to men and women as I understand it. many languages are like that. I may have heard or read the same about Greek. But I'm not sure.

Does anyone know for sure?


Are you going to also try to tell us that MEN doesn't really mean Men? I mean come on when will the madness stop... .it says what it says.... I can show you plenty of times where Paula adresses congregations and mentions the sisters... and DOES NOT call them Brethren

Mark 10:30 - But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters,

No Greek is needed to see that when he was referring to WOMEN he knew how to include them by saying SISTERS

Luke 14:26 - If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
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Post Re: I believe this scriptural reference R. Keith Whitt
Link wrote:
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Brings tons of clarity to the scenery of the local churches in the NT..... this meeting took place among Apostles and Elders.. and we see who was in that meeting.... MEN, BRETHREN


I need to ask someone who knows Greek about this, but I operate under the assumption that a masculine plural can refer to all men or to both men and women. 'Brethren' may refer to men and women as I understand it. many languages are like that. I may have heard or read the same about Greek. But I'm not sure.

Does anyone know for sure?


Link:

According to Blass & DeBrunner's excellent grammatical tool -- and Dr. French Arrington, the best Greek scholar I know -- the masculine plural (and the vocative masculine singular, in context) can refer to both men and women. Thus, the common Greek word "anthropoi" (often translated "men"), as well as "adelphoi" (often translated "brethren") can be a generic term for "humanity." Even the Greek grammars of the early to mid 20th century (pre-gender concerns) allow that "aner" (usually translated "husband" or "male" can be "someone, a certain person, or "an individual."

Keith
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Post Re: Junia R. Keith Whitt
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
R. Keith Whitt wrote:
It helps if we actually look at what the Bible says -- without reading into it our biases and prejudices -- and then examine what we find in light of the understanding of those closer to the time it was written.

1. Junia was a female apostle. The Greek is pretty clear on this and Romans 16 is a who's who of female leadership in ministry. We can play semantics (preaching/teaching; corporate/private ministry) all we want, but the Bible is clear about the role of women.

2. There are no extant referrences of a male named Junia or Junias in the first-century. In fact, Junias is not a first-century name period, contrary to the biases and eisegesis of the Dallas Theological Seminary writers. Check the archives of first-century names for the primary, unvarnished evidence. I have.

3. Chrysostum clearly understood Junia to be a female apostle and rejoiced for her ministry.

4. Women were very active in the church during the first four centuries. I am sure that it is just coincidental that the Spirit left the church about the same time that men put the brakes on the ministry of women.

We've been down this same road many times, but some just refuse to accept facts. Prejudices are more important or comforting (or controlling???) than truth.

For the record, I was against women pastors until I actually began to dig (not prooftext or eisegete) into what Scripture says.

Keith


R. Keith

Can you give us one scriptural reference of a woman being in any authority or leading or preaching in a local NT Church in the NT?

There are hundreds of references to MEN but I anticipate ONE SCRIPTURE that shows CLEARLY not vaguely .... one woman being the SPEAKER, PASTOR, TEACHER or PASTOR of any NT church.....


Shane:

I have and you said it didn't mean what it says. I can't win, when you are the only and final authority on Scripture....

Keith
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Post Bro. Witt BlessedinMsTn
This is exactly what I am talking about... there should be no room for argument if you have a clear and compelling example.. for instance we have CLEAR and CONCISE passages of scriptures showing us that men preached in the NT..... it says so.. it says they PREACHED.. not Prophesied but PREACHED... I have listed the numerous scriptural references before... and yet we do not have ONE compelling scripture that tells us a woman preached......

If what you present leaves any room for argument.... then this would not be a clear and compelling scripture... for example we read where PETER PREACHED..... now no one on this board could argue that Peter was not a preacher..... we have CLEAR scripture that needs no interpretation.. in all fairness all I am asking for is the same evidence for a woman preaching in the NT.....
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Post Greek Travesties BlessedinMsTn
I Tim 5:1 - Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;

The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.

Paul shows us clearly that the ladies in the church were commonly referred to as SISTERS not BRETHREN
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Post curly
I believe that God can and does use women. I do not doubt that. I was just wondering if female apostles was Biblical. Acts Enthusiast
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