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were there any female apostles
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Post HighlyFavoured
I am not going any further with this...it will be a waste of time.

Like I said before...take the scripture for what it means..and practice it...males are males whether they are 6 months old to 18....when does it cross over??

This is not a fight worth fighting...I am not called to Pastor...I do co-pastor with my husband..but I am also submitted to him and also under covering with my Pastor.. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.


But it usually takes a real man to be able to step aside and let a woman flow in her gifts and callings..and appreciate it without being intimidated.
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10/23/08 8:01 am


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Post HighlyFavoured John Jett
You are right to give up on arguing with Shane, just pray for him and be thankful that the Church in general is reforming to a correct understanding of original language and contextual understanding of scripture rather that middle-English colored interpretations. I hope that we can all at least agree that scripture requires close inductive study (study to learn what the Word says) rather than deductive (study to prove what we believe). Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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10/23/08 8:46 am


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Post Re: HighlyFavoured BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
You are right to give up on arguing with Shane, just pray for him and be thankful that the Church in general is reforming to a correct understanding of original language and contextual understanding of scripture rather that middle-English colored interpretations. I hope that we can all at least agree that scripture requires close inductive study (study to learn what the Word says) rather than deductive (study to prove what we believe).


John,, of course none of this is personal.. so I do not take your words as such... I respectfully submit that "it wasnt so from the beginning"

This was not a custom nor a teaching of the time... Paul brought it all the way to Eden
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10/23/08 9:28 am


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Post Highly Favoured BlessedinMsTn
HighlyFavoured wrote:
I am not going any further with this...it will be a waste of time.

Like I said before...take the scripture for what it means..and practice it...males are males whether they are 6 months old to 18....when does it cross over??

This is not a fight worth fighting...I am not called to Pastor...I do co-pastor with my husband..but I am also submitted to him and also under covering with my Pastor.. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.


But it usually takes a real man to be able to step aside and let a woman flow in her gifts and callings..and appreciate it without being intimidated.


I have tried to speak with nothing but respect.... to answer your question the scriptures teaches us that a boy becomes a man.... we see many instances in the Jewish custom that has been celebrated since the beginning of time when a boy becomes a man and this is typically around the age of 16...... this is why normally these young guys should be going into a class taught my a man... which makes perfect sense because they are going into a very troubling time for a young man and they will need a male perspective in how to cope with those things....

I would enjoy your re-adressing the whole issue of MALE for Bishop not really meaning a man....... the whole HUSBAND issue..... I didn't quite follow your line of reasoning
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10/23/08 9:36 am


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Post HighlyFavoured
Blessed...I have taught on this subject..for some time..my husband gets me to do series on it at our church...but I am not going to do it here...and I shouldn't have even started..so I apologize.

No matter what I say..you have your opinions and I have mine.

We can agree to disagree
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10/23/08 9:43 am


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Post Ok BlessedinMsTn
HighlyFavoured wrote:
Blessed...I have taught on this subject..for some time..my husband gets me to do series on it at our church...but I am not going to do it here...and I shouldn't have even started..so I apologize.

No matter what I say..you have your opinions and I have mine.

We can agree to disagree


I can respect that... and I do offer you nothing but my respect for doing what you feel God has called you to do..... there is one thing for sure.. .one of us is right and one is wrong....... if I am wrong I pray God reveals it to me
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10/23/08 9:46 am


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Post curly
Oh boy. I can't count the times I have been rebuked by a woman. Does that mean if it wasn't my mother, all of the rest of the women, including my wife has all been out of order. I didn't know women were not supposed to preach or teach a Sunday school class. Acts Enthusiast
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10/23/08 4:23 pm


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Post Of course they can teach a class BlessedinMsTn
curly wrote:
Oh boy. I can't count the times I have been rebuked by a woman. Does that mean if it wasn't my mother, all of the rest of the women, including my wife has all been out of order. I didn't know women were not supposed to preach or teach a Sunday school class.


A class of their subordinates.. and that should not include their head... just as a man shouldn't be teaching Christ and Christ shouldnt be teaching his Father... we should all know our place in Divine order
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10/23/08 4:24 pm


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Post John Jett
I can't believe I'm climbing back in, but I have a question? If you believe a woman should not have authority over a man, then I suppose you think all worship leaders should be men? Our worship pastor (yes, that's her title) is one of the most incredibly gifted leaders in the world, I put her up there with Darlene Zschech (and so would most that know her). I play bass in the praise band. Would you say that she has no business being in authority over me? When she chooses a song I don't necessarily love, do you think I should tell her no, pick something else? And even if you change her title to something as petty as "song leader" or just "music lady", she still has to have authority over those in the band and vocal team. Do you say that women can't be music/worship leaders in the church, something they have been doing in the COG at least since I was born, probably throughout its history! She is not "silent in the Church", and don't think she doesn't teach, she teaches us both the songs and the Word, she exhorts us to worship in the way that God leads her. What do you say?

I know by now I can't change your mind (that's up to God), but I just want you to think about it and I'd like to know your take --
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10/23/08 4:44 pm


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Post John BlessedinMsTn
As always you make very creative arguments, which I enjoy

It's funny how words have such meaning.. what you are calling the Music Pastor... we used to call the SONG LEADER.... lol

Funny how SONG LEADER doesn't sound near as powerful as MUSIC PASTOR

In all fairness John you create a thousand PASTOR titles and our Apostle Paul will only recognize one.. the one that is the SPIRITUAL HEAD of the local assembly.... the one who is commissioned to CORRECT, MATURE, REBUKE, EXHORT the local congregation.......

If your music Pastor is trying to take that place.. then yes she is out of her place.. However. if she is being a SONG LEADER then she should be just fine.... scriptures instruct all believers to make a joyful noise

Our church now has a Maintenance Pastor.... you wanna know what he does??? Cleans toilets..... fancy name, jobs the same
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10/23/08 4:47 pm


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Post Here's a thought ND5600
My husband and I were talking about this a few weeks ago. If a woman is asked to teach/preach at her church (not just teaching women and children, but the whole congregation) by her pastor - how then is she usurping authority if the pastor gave it to her to minister to the congregation? Usurp, according to Webster's Dictionary, means to seize and hold illegaly and by force. Therefore, she is not illegally seizing and holding by force the authority to minister; rather, she has been given it by her pastor. Therefore, there is no usurpation by the woman and therefore she can fulfill her calling by God to minister His word wherever He opens the door for her to do so.

Hope this makes sense.
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10/23/08 7:34 pm


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Post John Jett
I think Shane would say that the pastor would be wrong for putting you in that position. Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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10/23/08 7:52 pm


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Post Shane John Jett
Our music pastor is not the senior pastor, but she is the head of the worship/arts ministries of the church, and as such has lead many to the Lord including 89 people during a 3 night Christmas production that she lead. She has close to 30 people that she leads 3 days a week in various ministries, she is without a doubt a pastor. (In other words, she doesn't just get up in front of the mic and ask if anybody has a number) Smile If your janitor is leading men and women in the service of the church then I guess he is a shephard as well Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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10/23/08 8:02 pm


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Post Re: Here's a thought BlessedinMsTn
ND5600 wrote:
My husband and I were talking about this a few weeks ago. If a woman is asked to teach/preach at her church (not just teaching women and children, but the whole congregation) by her pastor - how then is she usurping authority if the pastor gave it to her to minister to the congregation? Usurp, according to Webster's Dictionary, means to seize and hold illegaly and by force. Therefore, she is not illegally seizing and holding by force the authority to minister; rather, she has been given it by her pastor. Therefore, there is no usurpation by the woman and therefore she can fulfill her calling by God to minister His word wherever He opens the door for her to do so.

Hope this makes sense.


Makes tremendous sense and is the same argument I used to use in support of women preaching....

but lets turn it around

If I tell my child to write a bad check.... and he does it because I allowed it... or I told him to do it? Who is more guilty me or him?

If Paul told the MAN to never allow a woman to teach or correct, preach to, rebuke or reprove a man and that man tells this woman to do this.... who is acting in rebellion now?

A man is under Christ which is the WORD.. just as the woman is under her head.. the man must be under his head.. and the word FORBIDS a woman to teach in the church..... if a man tells her to do so he is guilty of rebellion to his head.. THE WORD
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10/23/08 8:49 pm


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Post Re: Shane BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
Our music pastor is not the senior pastor, but she is the head of the worship/arts ministries of the church, and as such has lead many to the Lord including 89 people during a 3 night Christmas production that she lead. She has close to 30 people that she leads 3 days a week in various ministries, she is without a doubt a pastor. (In other words, she doesn't just get up in front of the mic and ask if anybody has a number) Smile If your janitor is leading men and women in the service of the church then I guess he is a shephard as well


Is she responsible for the souls of those in that congregation? Will they come to her to help them deal with sin in their lives? Will people counsel with her as to the doctrines of the church? Will she ever have to call men on the carpet and rebuke them for their error?

if so.... she is in the wrong place....

However, if she is simply doing a JOB she has been hired to do and she has nothing to do with the doctrine. teachings or corrections of the men of the church.. then I would see no problem with that
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10/23/08 8:52 pm


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Post HighlyFavoured
Quote:
John Jett wrote:
Our music pastor is not the senior pastor, but she is the head of the worship/arts ministries of the church, and as such has lead many to the Lord including 89 people during a 3 night Christmas production that she lead. She has close to 30 people that she leads 3 days a week in various ministries, she is without a doubt a pastor. (In other words, she doesn't just get up in front of the mic and ask if anybody has a number) If your janitor is leading men and women in the service of the church then I guess he is a shephard as well



Blessed Responded:


Is she responsible for the souls of those in that congregation? Will they come to her to help them deal with sin in their lives? Will people counsel with her as to the doctrines of the church? Will she ever have to call men on the carpet and rebuke them for their error?

if so.... she is in the wrong place....

However, if she is simply doing a JOB she has been hired to do and she has nothing to do with the doctrine. teachings or corrections of the men of the church.. then I would see no problem with that







This get's more twisted by the minute.
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10/23/08 9:22 pm


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Post HighlyFavoured
Quote:
Will she ever have to call men on the carpet and rebuke them for their error?





From the outside looking in don't you see how silly that sounds???



This means that I would and should NEVER lead a man to Christ....CAUSE I would NEVER be able to tell him the errors of his ways...like being a sinner...cause that would be considered rebuking.

God have mercy on us and our prejudice thinking!!!!
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10/23/08 9:25 pm


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Post Highly Favored BlessedinMsTn
HighlyFavoured wrote:
Quote:
Will she ever have to call men on the carpet and rebuke them for their error?





From the outside looking in don't you see how silly that sounds???



This means that I would and should NEVER lead a man to Christ....CAUSE I would NEVER be able to tell him the errors of his ways...like being a sinner...cause that would be considered rebuking.

God have mercy on us and our prejudice thinking!!!!


You are not rebuking a man who is a sinner.. you are warning him.. you have no spiritual authority over his maturity, his perfection or his doctrinal instruction......

To privatly witness to someone is not a FIVE FOLD ministry position... the woman at the well was a witness... nothing wrong with that at all... but had tried to be their spiritual head.. their Pastor or their Apostle or tried to bring them into spiritual maturity as Sons of God.. she would have been trying to have authority over her own head

Highly Favored.. honest question..... Lets say you are the CEO of a company... you have been appointed to a position in that corporation of headship.. you have a BOARD of experienced leaders that help to perfect this company.. to bring it into a strong mature company......

Well, here comes the secretary... she's no less of a person than anyone in leadership... but she is not in a position to instruct this companies CEO... and she walks into the board meeting attempting to correct this board..... how perverted would that look?

This is not about who is better than the other.. is the Man better than the Woman.. no... but their are roles that we all fill in Gods Kingdom..... Christ learns of his Father. ... Men learns of Christ... Wives learns of husbands.. children learn of their mothers....... it's PERFECT order....

anything that gets out of that order becomes perverted

I was listening to a woman preacher on Television a few nights ago.. when she stood there commanding men to confess their sins publically... I looked at her... speaking to the very ones that God placed over her... and her telling them what to do ..... was just soooooo wrong.. it didn't even make sense... it was so out of order to see this woman correcting the Sons of God
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10/23/08 10:42 pm


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Post John Jett
Its late and I can't think, but where is the basis for a "spiritual head"? Golf Cart Mafia Capo Famiglia
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10/23/08 10:51 pm


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Post The thing called the B I B L E BlessedinMsTn
John Jett wrote:
Its late and I can't think, but where is the basis for a "spiritual head"?


The head of Christ if GOD - He has a SPIRITUAL HEAD
The head of Man is Christ - He has a SPIRITUAL HEAD
The head of woman is Man - She has a SPIRITUAL HEAD


Why does this seem so strange to you.. I am actually quoting scripture
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10/23/08 11:04 pm


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