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"heal this person if it be thy will"
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Post How about... Pastor Gary
TheoloJohn wrote:
Just to clarify, if need be: I definitely did not and do not condemn anyone who may feel compelled to tack "if it be thy will" onto their prayers. I do, however, think adding that phrase often tends to unnecessarily add doubt to prayer.


How about, "Lord, I am asking you to show mercy on this brother and heal him, according to your will..."

I suppose that is an ambiguous phrase, and those who believe it is ALWAYS God's will to heal, could "AMEN!" it, and those who believe God sovereignly choses who and when to heal could also "AMEN!" it. Wink
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
Pastor Gary,

That's an interesting way to put it. In my experience, we only say "if it be thy will" if we don't have complete confidence regarding what the will of the Lord is.

As pastors, I think we do oftentimes find ourselves just "expected" to pray for people, even if we don't have a sure sense one way or the other what God's will would be in that instance, in which case I would perhaps add "according to thy will" to my prayer, though I would much prefer to first discern what the will of the Lord is in this particular situation.

As far as God "sovereignly" healing someone, apart from the rather obvious theological baggage attached to that term I would just say that anything God does is of course done sovereignly (by virtue of His own power and authority). He's God, and certainly has every right to do as He pleases. The wonder of it all is that He invites us to add our input/prayer to the equation at all, ever.

At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual. I honestly don't know why God does that to me, and I really wish He wouldn't actually, but if I feel God telling me that this particular sickness is "unto death," (will absolutely result in their physical death) I don't feel as if I can truly pray for anything in that case except for comfort and a mercifully quick death. I almost always will just keep such knowledge to myself, unless I feel the Lord telling me to reveal it to someone.

Jeremiah found that in some cases, God says He's had enough, and will not change His mind no matter how much prayer is offered, no matter even if Moses or Samuel were to pray to Him (Jer. 15).

I think we always should seek the Lord as to how to pray in any particular situation. Based on the numerous times in Scripture when God's mind/decision was said to be changed as a result of someone interceding before the throne, it seems to me that in some cases there's a definite "maybe" involved, like "If my people...then I will hear..."
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" His disciple
TheoloJohn wrote:
Pastor Gary,

That's an interesting way to put it. In my experience, we only say "if it be thy will" if we don't have complete confidence regarding what the will of the Lord is.

As pastors, I think we do oftentimes find ourselves just "expected" to pray for people, even if we don't have a sure sense one way or the other what God's will would be in that instance, in which case I would perhaps add "according to thy will" to my prayer, though I would much prefer to first discern what the will of the Lord is in this particular situation.

As far as God "sovereignly" healing someone, apart from the rather obvious theological baggage attached to that term I would just say that anything God does is of course done sovereignly (by virtue of His own power and authority). He's God, and certainly has every right to do as He pleases. The wonder of it all is that He invites us to add our input/prayer to the equation at all, ever.

At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual. I honestly don't know why God does that to me, and I really wish He wouldn't actually, but if I feel God telling me that this particular sickness is "unto death," (will absolutely result in their physical death) I don't feel as if I can truly pray for anything in that case except for comfort and a mercifully quick death. I almost always will just keep such knowledge to myself, unless I feel the Lord telling me to reveal it to someone.

Jeremiah found that in some cases, God says He's had enough, and will not change His mind no matter how much prayer is offered, no matter even if Moses or Samuel were to pray to Him (Jer. 15).

I think we always should seek the Lord as to how to pray in any particular situation. Based on the numerous times in Scripture when God's mind/decision was said to be changed as a result of someone interceding before the throne, it seems to me that in some cases there's a definite "maybe" involved, like "If my people...then I will hear..."



Good post!
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Post Me too! Pastor Gary
TheoloJohn wrote:
At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual.


Since you brought it up: I have been called to the bedside of more than one person and had the family ask me to pray for healing only to have the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit "Do NOT pray against my will... I am taking this one home now." That may fly in the face of the doctrinal views of some here, but it is the truth. In those cases I pray for God's mercy, His assurance, His peace and presence on the room... for ease of pain and rest for the suffering. Not healing, unless you refer to the ultimate healing of a glorified body free of limitations, disease and pain.
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Post Re: Me too! Porpoise Driven Neptune
Pastor Gary wrote:
TheoloJohn wrote:
At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual.


Since you brought it up: I have been called to the bedside of more than one person and had the family ask me to pray for healing only to have the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit "Do NOT pray against my will... I am taking this one home now." That may fly in the face of the doctrinal views of some here, but it is the truth. In those cases I pray for God's mercy, His assurance, His peace and presence on the room... for ease of pain and rest for the suffering. Not healing, unless you refer to the ultimate healing of a glorified body free of limitations, disease and pain.


Amen!

I too have sensed, as soon as I walked into a room, that the sickness was "unto death" & that I would be wrong to pray for healing.
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Post Re: Me too! notwanghere
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote:
Pastor Gary wrote:
TheoloJohn wrote:
At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual.


Since you brought it up: I have been called to the bedside of more than one person and had the family ask me to pray for healing only to have the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit "Do NOT pray against my will... I am taking this one home now." That may fly in the face of the doctrinal views of some here, but it is the truth. In those cases I pray for God's mercy, His assurance, His peace and presence on the room... for ease of pain and rest for the suffering. Not healing, unless you refer to the ultimate healing of a glorified body free of limitations, disease and pain.


Amen!

I too have sensed, as soon as I walked into a room, that the sickness was "unto death" & that I would be wrong to pray for healing.


The Lord has used me in the past in prayer for the sick. I distinctly verify hearing the direction of the Holy Spirit not to pray for healing for certain individuals.
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4/9/06 6:56 am


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Post Why I Believe it is ALWAYS God's Will to Heal... Yo Dude
To keep this very short and simple, let me just point out a couple of things:

There are a couple of OT episodes where God did not heal (e.g., David's illegitimate son by Bathsheba). But notice that when Jesus came, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who came to Jesus was healed.

Every one.

EVERY ONE.

EVERY SINGLE ONE.

Now, we know that there were MULTITUDES that came to Jesus. Surely, surely, surely in those multitudes there were people of all stripes--saints, sinners, homosexuals, thiefs, and what not. It's just statistically impossible to believe otherwise.

And yet He healed them everyone.

We notice, however, in James that with healing comes the forgiveness of sins, so it is my opinion that at the point of healing, they were also forgiven.

What they did with it is up to them. Did they "go and sin no more"? We don't know for sure.

All we know is that it was God's will to heal them.

Now, if I may be so blunt as to say there is a lot of covering our backsides going on in the church today when we "explain" that so few get healed due to God's will for them to suffer...God healing them by letting them die...and other stuff.

Look, I don't get what I want on some prayers. But let's not blame God! Let's just say, "God WILL HEAL--if we can but touch Him!"

If we fail for OUR lack of faith or whatever, fine. But let's not act as if God isn't a healer. Let's just say, "We prayed, we cried, we wept, we pleaded...but apparently we did not touch God in faith...for if we had, then we KNOW we have our petition."

Love.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
When in his own hometown, the Bible states that Jesus could do no mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
It seems perfectly superfluous and almost absurd to say to God "if it be thy will,"if you think about it. As if He needs us to inform Him of His sovereignty or something.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" Land of Middle Girth
TheoloJohn wrote:
It seems perfectly superfluous and almost absurd to say to God "if it be thy will,"if you think about it. As if He needs us to inform Him of His sovereignty or something.


couldn't praying "if it be thy will" also be acknowledgment of the lordship that Christ has over our lives? I see it as making that acknowledgment rather than dictating to God what we want Him to do. It's a short way of saying: "this is something that I feel I need right now. It may not be something that is necessary or compatible with what your will is in my life, so whatever your will is and weather or not it includes what I feel I need, I will rejoice and be glad in whatever you have in store for me".


Just a lay-mans opinion.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
The reason I say it is superfluous and actually absurd to say "If it be thy will," is simply this: "Why would we be praying to for something in the first place, if it weren't the case that it was up to Him?" The very act of prayer presupposes His absolute Lordship and our absolute dependence.

Saying, "If it be they will" is like trying to instruct God in theology, as if He needed any instruction.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" Land of Middle Girth
But there is a difference between asking and using God as a token in the slot machine of life.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
Land of Middle Girth wrote:
But there is a difference between asking and using God as a token in the slot machine of life.

I completely agree, but I'm not actually sure how that fact relates to what I have been saying here.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" Land of Middle Girth
All I'm saying is that prayer should not be us dictating to God what we want as much as it should be vocal support for His will. I would imagine as Christians who are "spirit filled" or mature should naturally have desires that would be congruent with the Will of God.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
While it is of course true that any true Christian should want God's will to be done, and should pray to that end (as Jesus taught us to pray) there are several places in Scripture where prayer seems to be the key to unlocking the situation, if you will pardon the expression. James says "You have not because you ask not, and that you ask amiss, that you may consume it upon your own (selfish) desires."

In 2 Kings 20, when King Hezekiah prayed for God to spare his life, the revealed, specific will of God that had just been delivered to the king by the Prophet Isaiah was, "You shall die and not live." And yet, when the king prayed, God heard his prayer, reversed His earlier decision, and healed him. Isaiah was instructed to return to the king and tell him the "revised version" of God's will for him: "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears, I will heal you....You shall LIVE and not die."

So was Hezekiah sinning by refusing to accept the initial word given to him by the prophet? If he was, we have to wonder why God responded as He did. Similarly, when Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah, were they sinning when they said, "Who knows whether God will change his mind regarding the destruction Jonah has prophesied to us?"

This is why I say we must allow that in some cases God's will is more flexible than we may think.
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" Land of Middle Girth
I understand your point and see the topic in a different light. My question in response to your answer is, why, then did Jesus, in response to the question of how we should pray, include within that answer the phrase "thy will be done?"
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Post Re: "heal this person if it be thy will" TheoloJohn
Land of Middle Girth wrote:
I understand your point and see the topic in a different light. My question in response to your answer is, why, then did Jesus, in response to the question of how we should pray, include within that answer the phrase "thy will be done?"


As I alluded to in my previous post, I think God's will is in some cases more flexible than just simply "black or white" as we may tend to think.

Of course, prayer is asking God's will to be done; however, in some passages of Scripture, God's will appears to be to a certain extent flexible.
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Post Re: Me too! revuriah
Porpoise Driven Neptune wrote:
Pastor Gary wrote:
TheoloJohn wrote:
At the risk of sounding "super spiritual," I will admit that it has almost never failed to be the case that when I hear about a desperate situation that needs prayer, the Lord witnesses to my spirit if there is no hope whatsoever this side of the grave for the individual.


Since you brought it up: I have been called to the bedside of more than one person and had the family ask me to pray for healing only to have the Holy Spirit speak to my spirit "Do NOT pray against my will... I am taking this one home now." That may fly in the face of the doctrinal views of some here, but it is the truth. In those cases I pray for God's mercy, His assurance, His peace and presence on the room... for ease of pain and rest for the suffering. Not healing, unless you refer to the ultimate healing of a glorified body free of limitations, disease and pain.


Amen!

I too have sensed, as soon as I walked into a room, that the sickness was "unto death" & that I would be wrong to pray for healing.


There is a pastor I listen via the web in the Detroit area, an A/G church, so you know that they believe in divine healing. He told the story recently how he went to visit a sister from the church in the hospital who was sick and dying. The church had been praying for her, and she had evidently lived longer because of it. While the pastor was in the room with her, she actually said to him, "I know that it is my time to go home. But you need to know that God hears the prayers of this church, and your prayers are keeping me here. Tell the church to stop praying for me."

When I read what TheoloJohn had posted about Hezekiah and Ninevah, it made me think of this situation, as well as Pastor Gary sensing that God's will was to take someone home.
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Post The prayer changes us as much as effects God.... SkyPilot
In praying, not my will but yours, I am submitting myself to God's purpose. In all things, not just healing. I am ensuring my motives are right. If we pray according to God's will he will meet any request we present. Sometimes I need to make sure I am praying with the mind of God. I add "if it be your will", to my prayer to ensure that i am thinking about what God would want. To ensure that my thoughts and motives on the subject of my prayer are pure. Some talked of knowing that the person in the hospital was going to die and that it they felt constrained to pray for healing. That is knowing the mind of God in that instance. I think in every prayer we should strive to know the mind of God.

Regretfully though, I do not always have a firm grip on what God is thinking. I ask for things out of selfishness and selfish ambition. i envy others and I am jealous. Sometimes I ask, with impure motives, and just the phrase "if it be your will" straightens me up and reminds me that I need to know God and the purposes he has for me, and that will guide my prayer life.
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