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The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link)
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Post The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
I would like to hear feedback on eschatology. I'm really not interested in starting big debate per se, just a discussion as to Why you believe as you do concerning the end times. I'd like to hear from those who believe in the pretrib theory, please cite Scripture verses supporting that belief. If your view happens to not be pretrib, also feel free to give the reasons why you believe as you do, most importantly citing scriptures in support of your view of this.

I unequivocally affirm the CoG Declaration of Faith. As you may know, the CoG has no specific stance regarding the timing of the rapture, whether pre, mid, or post tribulational. All our DoF officially affirms is premillenialism.

The following article was one of the first I came across several years ago, which prompted further study of the tribulation, rapture, etc. I would love to hear substantive feedback and/or criticism of the article:

http://www.twtministries.com/articles/4_eschatology/rapture.html

I am definitely open to any evidence that can be presented in support of the pretrib rapture theory. Thus far all I have found have been inferences drawn from the "readiness" verses of scripture, which really don't prove any particular eschatology whatsoever.

I would sincerely love to be proven wrong for doubting the pretrib theory, but I simply find the evidence in support of the pretrib theory virtually absent.

Thanks,

John
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3/31/06 2:33 pm


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Post One possible scripture... Yo Dude
Theolo,

There is a scripture (don't have it handy right now) that states that God will "cut it short in righteousness."

I have taken that to mean, from my reading of scripture, that the rapture will come BEFORE the "seven years" of the tribulation (which time frame is NOT in the Bible) is complete, thus making the mid- and post-trib positions synonymous (i.e., what would have been the mid-trib rapture had the tribulation kept going for the supposed full time of 7 years, will instead be the END of the tribulation, and thus be the post-trib position instead).

BUT...

That same "cut short" can be used for the pre-trib. That is, someone could claim that the readiness factor is because JESUS COULD COME at any moment, cutting it all short in righteousness.

And if so, then Bro. Hughes was indeed right, Jesus COULD come tonight!

Love.
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3/31/06 3:05 pm


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Post Not trying to prove you wrong... Anakrino
This is my view...

2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

I personally believe that the restrainer (referred to with a personal pronoun, "he," in vs 7) the Apostle speaks of here is the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit dwells and works to restrain evil by means of the church; therefore, a removal of the Spirit, in this NT context, entails a removal of the church. Once the church is raptured the Antichrist will be revealed. This certainly does not mean that the Holy Spirit will have absolutely no influence on the earth during this period. He will have influence similar to his influence before Pentecost when he came to dwell in believers as Jesus prophesied. As Christ's body, indwelt by his Spirit, we are more than conquerors and a city set upon a hill in this world. However, this restraining influence (the church) will be removed to allow the Antichrist to come to complete power. It is interesting to note that whatever it was that restrained, the Thessalonians were knowledgeable of it.

Also, I believe that the fact that the word church (ekklesia) is not mentioned in Revelation chapters 4 through 18 supports the pretribulation rapture theory.
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Yo Dude,

I think you're referring to Rom 9:28. I haven't ever heard that verse used in support of the pretrib theory, but...

The context indicates that Paul is here discussing the remnant of Israel that were being saved in Paul's day. I don't see the rapture mentioned anywhere in that passage, but I could be missing something.

Thanks for your input.

John
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Hi Anakrino,

Thanks for your input, brother. I really do appreciate it when we can reasonably and benevolently discuss the Scriptures like this.

As far as who the restrainer might be, the early church fathers all believed that the Roman Empire was the restrainer. It seems to me that we must begin with a belief in the pretrib theory to find it in this verse, but I will do some further study on the subject.

As far as the church not being mentioned in Rev. 4-18, that is at best an inference. Also, John sees visions of heaven during these chapters too, so does his lack of mentioning of "the church" mean the church won't be in heaven, either? Further, there is no specific mention of the term "church" in chs. 19-22, either.

If you would, please examine the article I linked. I would really like to hear some solid pretrib critique of the article. I am not personally posttrib, but I do find the pre-wrath view to make a lot of sense scripturally and logically.

Thanks again for your input, brother.

Blessings, as always.
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3/31/06 3:36 pm


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Post Thelo...about the "cutting short" Yo Dude
The following imply that there may indeed be something to the "cutting short" I mentioned in an earlier post:


Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Yo, that's interesting. My first thought is that just because the same term, "shortened" is used in different contexts does not require that they refer to the same subject being shortened.
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Post I'm pre-trib Porpoise Driven Neptune
I'm pre-trib - but it's not something I really feel convinced enough to want to argue about.

I think the framing of the wording of the CoG Declaration of Faith was extremely wise. It allows various shades of premillenial belief to co-exist in one church. (It also allows Wesleyans to co-exist with Once-saved-always-saved folks, but that's a whole different subject!)

One verse (& it's far from being a clincher) that appears to me to support the pre-trib or pre-wrath position is Revelation 6:8
Quote:
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.


At least at this stage of the tribulation all those who are being killed are unbelievers, because they going to Hades after death.
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3/31/06 4:28 pm


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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) notwanghere
I believe a key element of this is the identity of the 24 elders. If we reach the conclusion that they are the Church then the pre-trib position gains much credibility. Acts Enthusiast
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Post Mrs Layperson and I disagree on this subject. Layperson
She wanted me to post her thoughts (I will post mine later)

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on all the world"

Dr. David Jeremiah in his book "Escape The Coming Night" points out that the Lord did not say he would keep us through the hour of trail, but from the hour of trial. Dr Jeremiah also points out on the same page that in chapters one through three, the church is mentioned 19 times. After chapter four the tribulation is described but the church is not mentioned.

My wife believes this is because the raptured church is in heaven.

I Thess 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
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3/31/06 10:29 pm


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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Not to hijack my own thread, but I honestly don't see how anyone could get from our DoF that "once saved, always saved" (OSAS) was compatible with CoG doctrine. The OSAS doctrine teaches that how one lives subsequent to being born again does not affect one's salvation one way or the other, that a person can indeed live a life of absolute licentiousness and yet at the same time be saved, due to their past experience of regeneration.
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) Porpoise Driven Neptune
TheoloJohn wrote:
Not to hijack my own thread, but I honestly don't see how anyone could get from our DoF that "once saved, always saved" (OSAS) was compatible with CoG doctrine. The OSAS doctrine teaches that how one lives subsequent to being born again does not affect one's salvation one way or the other, that a person can indeed live a life of absolute licentiousness and yet at the same time be saved, due to their past experience of regeneration.


That is one version of OSAS, but one unrecognizable to many I know who hold to the doctrine of eternal security.

They would believe that their salvation is a done deal, that it can never be taken away from them. But they believe that they are saved to live in holiness. Furthermore they believe that if they were to commit a sin such as adultery or murder then that would actually be proof that they were never born again in the first place. I don't agree with their beliefs, you may find it easy to point out flaws & inconsistencies, but I don't see how they are inconsistent with the CoG Declaration of Faith.

John, Pentecostals have often suffered unfair criticism from people like John McArthur Jr who takes the worst excesses of Pentecostalism as if they were typical of the whole movement. We can behave, I believe, with more charity.
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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Funny how murder or adultery get singled out as sins worthy of condemnation, but "little" sins don't. (I see this happening in our churches, too, by the way). 1 Jn 3 says that he who commits sin is of the Devil. I have yet to find a single OSAS proponent who denies that they sin "daily, in word, thought, and deed." What's up with that?

While I can certainly understand how an individual's motivation can be one of unloving censoriousness, it is not clear how it is necessarily inconsistent with charity/benevolence simply to point out errors in doctrine and practice. For instance, I have no doubt whatsoever that you have had a benevolent motive in all our doctrinal disagreements. I do not detect that you have argued against me personally, nor that you have had any interest but the truth of things in all our disagreements.

It is also not clear how this relates to John MacArthur's blanket condemnation of virtually all charismatics and Pentecostals.

I realize that the "eternal security" doctrine as taught by some genuinely seeks to avoid antinomianism, and that they will say if you go back into gross sin you never were saved at all. My objections to the ES/OSAS doctrine are first biblical (I do not find the Bible to teach OSAS) and then practical (I have personally seen the pernicious effects of this damnable doctrine).

When I was in college years ago, as a backslidden Pentecostal (which I am definitely not proud of) at a Southern Baptist liberal arts university, all of my drinking, carousing, fornicating, partying, fraternity brothers, when asked, considered themselves definitely saved, regardless of what degree of sinning they were willfully participating in. To my eternal shame, I willfully joined in with their heathen lifestyle, but I never had a doubt in my mind that I was headed for hell while living as I was. Thankfully, in kindness God lead me to true repentance and restoration of personal salvation through Christ. I cannot say for certain what became of all my old drinking buddies, but in their minds, they were saved no matter what they did.

I saw a friend of mine who was an elder in a church have an affair and leave his wife for the other woman, all the while claiming he was still "saved" because Jesus had already paid for all his sins, "past, present, and future," and he said nothing, not even open, unrepentant sin could take him from God's hand.

I could relate many other examples every bit as tragic and heart-rending as these.
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Post I'm changing from Pre-Trib to Pan-Trib Anakrino
It's all gonna pan out like God planned it in the first place.
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Post Best PostTrib site (Link) coelestius
The best post-trib site out there is Tim Warner's Last Trumpet site, at http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/index.html

[/url]
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Post Pritrib Is Not A New View ImHisChild
John, the link you posted at the beginning of this thread makes much of the fact that the pretribulation rapture of the church is a relatively new comer to truth. The writer cites many great theologians and seems to conclude that because they believed in post-trib the argument for that position is somehow validated. I believe in historic truth as well, and we are wise to see what those before us have said. Too bad that truth is not necessarily enhanced by successive generations.

I want to point out that even before the earliest of recorded theologians there were great men of God who believed in the imminent return of the Lord. They were Jesus Himself, Paul & Peter. One could even perhaps believe that all the original twelve were convinced of His imminent return.

Jesus when answering the questions posed by His disciples at the beginning of Matthew 24 uses language that speaks of the nearness the coming events.

Matthew 24:1-3
1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2“Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” 3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
The very first thing He says,
Matthew 24:4
4Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
He uses the first person present tense in preface to all that He is about to say. Space will not permit me to cite all the instances that He uses the third person present tense, but many times. The whole context makes the reader sense as though the events could take place today, including His return. Had He been directing His directly to some future generation, why not make that clear by using futuristic terms as the prophets of old did.

The Apostle Paul makes his position clear on the return of the Lord in 1 Corinthians and 1&2 Thessalonians.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
2 Thessalonians 2:1
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
Notice that in each case he uses a present tense form of the pronoun – we. In 1 Thess the we that is used to proclaim faith that Jesus died and rose again and the we that believes that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep, is the we who are still alive and will be caught up together in the clouds. The only time he refers to “they” and “them” is when is speaking of those who have preceded the we in death. Once again had he been referring to a future generation why not say so. The answer is simple – the Holy Ghost is conveying the truth of the imminent return of the Lord.

Peter as well believed the Lord was coming at any time:
2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. 11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
Here the same message is sent to the Church – it is about you and we, not they and them.

The rest of Jesus followers could have easily believed this as well:
Acts 1:11
11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Now I realize the angels never directly promised that they would see Him return, but certainly I can understand why they would believe that they would.

So I am convinced that the pretrib return is the oldest position of the Church, not the newest as many have claimed.

For your consideration, could the real truth that the Bride sets the date of the return of the Bridegroom?

God bless
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4/4/06 3:20 pm


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Post Re: The Pretrib Rapture Theory...(Link) TheoloJohn
Hi ImHisChild,

Thank you for your input. It is a matter of historical fact that the pretrib rapture theory was absolutely unknown to Christianity until the 1830s. Though certainly the Bible teaches that we must be ever-ready for his return, it just as certainly teaches that the gospel shall be preached into all nations (people groups) for a witness, and then shall the end come, so it cannot be true that Jesus could have returned any time before the present. With all due respect, none of the passages you cited require the pretrib rapture theory.

Blessings in Christ,

John

P.S.: I'm a bit rushed for time right now, but will do my best to respond further later.
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Post Theolojohn & Imhis child Gradofcogts
Theolojohn:

I don't see how you feel the Scriptures used by imhischild has no reference or relevance to eschatology?

Also you mention the year 1830 as a starting point for pre-trib and that the early church fathers did not embrace this doctrine.

But a study of the early church fathers find them wrestling with the Trinity, humanity of Christ, bringing together the canon and teachings of the apostles, etc..............

My point being that all main stream arguments concerning the catching away were in fact late other than the Scriptures used by imhischild.

So how do you with one swipe dismiss them as not "required" for pre-trib with no explanation other than what you say? He did use the Scriptures and while they are part of the classical argument they are enough for many to stand with that doctrine.
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4/4/06 8:57 pm


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Post Pre-trib (link) stp89
TheoloJohn wrote:

Thank you for your input. It is a matter of historical fact that the pretrib rapture theory was absolutely unknown to Christianity until the 1830s.


Hi Theo- I'd like to submit This link for your viewing. It would seem that not everyone shares your conclusion regarding the origins of the pre-trib rapture "theory". Very Happy

I hope to share more later as time allows
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4/4/06 9:12 pm


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Post The Whole World Has Heard ImHisChild
John wrote,
Though certainly the Bible teaches that we must be ever-ready for his return, it just as certainly teaches that the gospel shall be preached into all nations (people groups) for a witness, and then shall the end come, so it cannot be true that Jesus could have returned any time before the present.


The requirement for the gospel to be preached into all nations was fulfilled according to the Apostle Paul before he died.

Colossians 1:6
6that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and understood God’s grace in all its truth.

Colossians 1:23
23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Romans 1:8
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

So I must conclude that Paul by the Holy Ghost believed that the whole world had heard the gospel and had a chance to receive its provision. Therefore, I am convinced that nothing stands between us and the rapture other than the condition of the church.

God Bless


Last edited by ImHisChild on 4/5/06 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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