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Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT
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Post Travis Johnson
Kevin,

Initial physical evidence = tongues. I have no beef with that doctrine and teach it.

Substantial physical evidence = leading people to Christ.

If someone speaks in tongues but does not have a passion for lost people and does not reach people, I doubt their experience with the Holy Spirit. Afterall, its by our fruit we are known.

Anyone can fake tongues. We all have hyper-spiritual and faux-spirituality in our churches. But, you cannot fake the substance of the Holy Spirit functioning in us. The substance is leading people to Jesus Christ.

My heart is that after we have encountered the Holy Spirit post-salvation that would we get beyond the Upper Room and into the street. I know you do that. That's who you are. You've experienced the Holy Spirit and He's working in your life.

Unfortunately, some people chalk up their experience with the Holy Spirit to nothing more than tongues. They've never moved beyond that. They have meetings so they can feel good about themselves. But, they haven't put a dent in hell in years if ever.
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3/26/08 1:51 pm


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Post DHDRabbi
Quote:
Brother Stanley and I preach differently b/c we view the Book of Acts and the rest of Spirit-filled scripture in different ways.


Brother Stanley? Are you speaking of Charles or Andy? Or...someone else?
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/26/08 1:55 pm


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Post Travis... Yo Dude
If we can have both the initial and (as you put it) substantial physical evidence, why aren't you pushing them both?

When you go with only the latter, you are doing nothing more, in my opinion, than the Baptists (who are good at sharing their faith, it appears).

I'll bet some people have royally screwed that one up, too, but I don't see you backing away from it. So why stop preaching and teaching the gift of tongues (indeed, all the gifts) just because some people don't go any further?

You're the pastor! TEACH THEM. Teach them that they OUGHT to have experienced both!

This is twisted, man.
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3/26/08 2:03 pm


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Post J Ryan Herrington
Travis Johnson wrote:
What's the difference? Maybe none. But, I know I want to move beyond the Upper Room and beyond the Day of Pentecost and also get out into the streets among the people.


And that is exactly where we agree 100%. If we are truly baptized in the Spirit, we will desire to leave the Upper Room and get in the streets as the apostles did.
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3/26/08 2:06 pm


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Post DHDRabbi
Why not teach seeking the Spirit and let the gifts happen? if you teach tongues, people just try to speak with tongues. You will have what happened to me as a child. A lady screamed in my ear to say "Praise the Lord" faster...faster...faster. And when I stumbled my words, she declared me filled with the Holy Ghost.

That's because they taught us TONGUES. It is the all important thing. it makes you pentecostal. you can teach a Sunday School class. It means everything.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/26/08 2:08 pm


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Post words theophorus
Words contain the meaning assigned to them. Pentecostal, Charismatic, Spirit-filled - these words are virtually the same when you compare them to some random words like automobile, television, or carpet. But in our tradition we parse these words more closely and assign meaning to them.

Some don't like 'Pentecostal". They think there is too much negative baggage attached to it. Others like 'Pentecostal' and the rich heritage attached to it. In your efforts to state your meaning of those words be careful not to stereotype or caricature the other side.

Travis' post might have been better served to say "Pentecostal is not JUST:...." Because there are times when it is indeed many of those things he listed; but it is not correct to define it solely by those things. A quadrilateral is not JUST a square. It also includes rectangles and any other polygons with 4 sides and 4 angles. While Travis may not like squares because of the emotional baggage attached to it, and while a square is not the only example, it is indeed a quadrilateral.

You may not like what some Pentecostals are, but that is, in some cases, what they are. As far as the term "Pentecostal", many unchurched people have no preconceived idea of the term. It's a church term with an assigned meaning. It makes reference to being a restorative movement that seeks to capture the Spirit of the Church on Pentecost.

I don't think I've ever met a "Pentecostal" who thinks you must wear a pin stripe suit with matching hanky. I doubt anyone would hold to this position. I'm sure it was meant as an exaggeration. But sometimes it is not helpful to caricature the other side in a debate. It makes the other side feel demeaned and patronized. They usually respond in kind.

I agree that many of our Church of God churches have been largely focused on one issue, "tongues". This has been taught for many years as our distinctive. In past generations, Pentecostal Theology was not creative. It simply took Baptist theology and added this Pentecostal distinctive to it. We held to this distinctive less we become like everyone else. We now have a lot of excellent theology being done by Pentecostals all over the world. I don't think we need to hold to that distinctive so tightly anymore. We have found that we have many others.

As far as the "post-moderns" this is rather ironic. I have not visited Travis' church in Homestead. I have looked at the website and read many of his posts. I would not in any way characterize his church as "post-modern" or "emerging". It is much more similar to the seeker-sensitive churches (Willow Creek) than it is to the emerging ones (Solomon's Porch, Vintage Faith, Ecclesia etc). I would say it is very "Missional".

Most post-moderns are very interested in the supernatural. They are drawn to the mystic. Many of them are very interested in prophecy, words of knowledge and etc. But perhaps not in the traditional ways. Many of them receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit very easily because they don't have any expectations from years of growing up in Pentecostal churches. They don't wait on Sister Jenkins to come and tap their chin but this does not invalidate in any way Sister Jenkins' ability as an intercessor nor the experience many had when she prayed for them. There is room for both.

There is room for both sweaty preachers and small groups.

There is room for both screamind altar services and screaming guitars.

There is room for both an armor bearer and a designer blue jeans.

There is room for both suits and lattes.
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3/26/08 2:10 pm


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Post Re: Travis... Travis Johnson
Yo Dude wrote:
If we can have both the initial and (as you put it) substantial physical evidence, why aren't you pushing them both?


#1 Who said I wasn't teaching both? That is an inaccurate conclusion you've arrived at.

#2 I believe that focusing on tongues to the detriment of the substance misses the point of the WHY of the Holy Spirit. Did He come to give us tongues? Was that His purpose? He came to empower us. And, we get to speak in tongues. Its a beautiful thing.
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3/26/08 2:18 pm


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Post Reply to DhDRABBI KevinWallace
Charles
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3/26/08 2:34 pm


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Post Travis KevinWallace
Good point...

Again, when someone who speaks in tongues because they have genuinely been filled with the Holy Spirit their lives will be characterized by boldly sharing the Gospel with others. Both are evidence and both are substantial...only one is initial.
To respond to rabbi's question in another thread-- Obviously when someone speaks in tongues as a result of Spirit Baptism, time may elapse between their having been filled with the Holy Spirit and their testifying and witnessing to others about Jesus. It is not that they have to engage in the witnessing to seal the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is rather that having been baptized in the Holy Spirit they will be ready to and engage in witnessing activity at every turn. A person who only speaks in tongues while possessing a nominal Christian experience must be challenged to investigate the authenticity of their experience. This is not based upon my view, this is my understanding of the totality of scripture based upon behavior of the early, Pentecostal church.
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3/26/08 2:42 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
Theo,

I was making reference to Yo Dude's definition of Pentecost. It was incorrect and shouldn't be identified with any cultural experiences as a definitive marker. Pentecost is a thing of the Spirit, not a learned thing of the culture, whether that culture pushes suits or jeans, lattes or Lincoln Town Cars.
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3/26/08 2:43 pm


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Post Travis, you do it again! Yo Dude
You apparently don't get it that neither I not 99.9999999999% of the Pentecostals on this planet DO NOT think that the Holy Ghost is given to us just so we can speak in tongues!!!

Do I need to say it? OK: "The Holy Ghost is not given to us just so we can speak in tongues."

No one believe that. Yet you go tilting off at it at every opportunity.

YOU'RE the one who has been resistant and mocking all day long toward "Pentecostal" distinctives. I could only assume that you didn't make much mention of such gifts in your sermons. And I'm pretty sure you don't, or you wouldn't be so anti-Pentecostal.

It's almost as if you hate the word.
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3/26/08 2:48 pm


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Post Re: Reply to DhDRABBI DHDRabbi
KevinWallace wrote:
Charles



OK...thanks. Andy is my pastor. He is not like his Dad.
[Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/26/08 2:48 pm


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Post Travis Steve LaFever
I fully agree with the part of your post regarding the substance of receiving the Holy Ghost and I also agree with much of what you said on what being Pentecostal is not. Except you said it much more eloquently than I ! Smile

However, I also think there is still room for those that do hoop and holler (not me). Basically, my view is that some people are open to different ways of being reached.

If the Spirit manifested itself some Sunday morning in the traditional Pentecostal manner, would you have problems at your Church or would you try to downplay it?

I have a problem with people that think the traditional way to preach and to shout is the ONLY way. On the other hand, I also have a problem if one tried to quench the spirit. I do think if God is in it, and people are open to the truth, they won't run from the manifestation. It is when the manifestation is simple wild fire, or if the people are unwilling to be open that problems occurr.


On the other hand, from a human perspective, I can see that due to people's background, they may need to be led more slowly to the pentecostal experience. But, I'm not sure that is truly Biblical.
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3/26/08 3:02 pm


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Post Re: Travis Travis Johnson
KevinWallace wrote:
Good point...

Again, when someone who speaks in tongues because they have genuinely been filled with the Holy Spirit their lives will be characterized by boldly sharing the Gospel with others. Both are evidence and both are substantial...only one is initial.


Initial and Substantial are markers to me. Initial is the first. Substantial is the purpose or the substance of the Spirit post Ascension.

Is the Charismata substantial to me? Yes. But, when tongues and prophecies have ceased, all that is substantial are those we've been able to pluck out of the mouth of hell by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This in no way diminishes the Charismata. But, it elevates the work of the Holy Spirit in us. His primary purpose is to empower us as witnesses. Thus, the initial and substantial evidence of Spirit Baptism.
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3/26/08 3:07 pm


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Post Re: Travis Travis Johnson
Steve LaFever wrote:
However, I also think there is still room for those that do hoop and holler (not me). Basically, my view is that some people are open to different ways of being reached.


I do too. I've never said anything counter. I enjoy church, period. I grew up in a classical Pentecostal styled church and I love it...still do. We should all approach our culture with our people in mind. What language do they speak? Where do they come from? What glasses tdo they see through?

In my application, what does it look like? Put 40 nationalities together in the same room, let God begin to gnaw away at their soul and the result is varied responses. In addition to that, over 60% of our people have zero church background. So, for the most part, they aren't trying reproduce something else they saw.

Do I downplay it? Not a chance. I think its a beautiful thing when the Holy Spirit moves among us. I just rather it is the Holy Spirit than someone that feels the need to be the center of attention.
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3/26/08 3:17 pm


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Post FiredUp4Jesus
Travis Johnson wrote:
Kev,

You sweat. You wear a suit. You are passionate when you preach. Your dad is your armor bearer. But, these things make not a Pentecostal. You are a Pentecostal who does these things.

I don't have an armor bearer. I have a Production Manager. I don't wear a suit except when I'm preaching in a place that would receive me better in a suit. I too am passionate when I speak...in a different way than you. These thing make not a Pentecostal. I am a Pentecostal who does these things.

We fit our cultures, Pentecostals who are not defined by the tone, dress, personality, culture, or locale. We're defined by the words of Jesus, waiting for the power of the Holy Spirit to be poured out on us to go and reach our worlds, whether our worlds are in the Smokey Mountains or in the most stress-filled, most road raging city in the USA...my lovely hometown of Homestead/Miami.


I don't know much, Travis, but I do know that whatever culture that Kevin Wallace is in he will preach with the same passion that he does in his home southern church. It's part of his personality. It's who he is. Part of being Pentecostal is being authentic, not fake. Therefore, I don't believe that Kevin would go into a teaching-centered church and 'tone down' his message so maybe people would hear him better. He was asked to come because of himself, not to come and alter his message or style of delievery to fit the 'culture' of his audience. Paul tried to reach the culture with reasoning with them on Mars Hill. He tried all day. Some said they would come hear him debate and philosophize tomorrow. Tomorrow never came for them. Paul was out of there and back to rebuking and exhorting will all long-suffering and doctrine like he was created to be.

I think our preaching style and delivery should be passionate and with no reservations. Passion expresses itself different ways in different people. That's the point. Being Pentecostal means putting everything of ourselves into every opportunity to reach the lost-and for pastors, every sermon could be someone's last. God made us all with different personalities to reach different people. If one style was the only way, God would have made Christians 'cookie-cutter' style. To believe that your style of ministry should fit the culture that you are ministering in, I believe, is in error. God did not created us to fit in. He created us to express this timeless Pentecostal message with all the passion and resources that He placed in us before birth. That is the only way we can reach the whole world for Christ.

I believe your style comes from who you are. That's fine with me. I really don't think you would come to Kevin Wallace's church and start to sweat and yell and holler just because you think it would fit his church. I believe you would deliver the same as you do at home. Pentecostal expression should not be cultural-it should be internally driven by the Spirit within.

BTW-if you do ever plan on speaking in some Pentecostal church and you are gonna do all the sweating and stuff, let us know. It would be great to post on YouTube> Wink Laughing Shocked
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3/26/08 4:53 pm


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Post Travis Johnson
FiredUP,

I spoke with Kevin at Engage21, he didn't preach hard at me. We talked and it was pleasant. We were one on one and we both knew our audience and spoke accordingly. Now, Kevin is Kevin and Travis is Travis and we have to be authentically ourselves. But, we both consider our audience.

When I speak to a Spanish crowd, I use an interpreter or mangle the language trying to be as effective of a communicator as I can. When the context changes, I change my approach accordingly. Hudson Taylor and other missionaries have been doing the same for centuries outside of the USA. It's normal to do the same inside the USA.
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3/27/08 6:59 am


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Post FiredUp4Jesus
Maybe you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about one on one talking, I was talking about how someone ministers the gospel from behind a pulpit. Totally different scenarios.
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3/27/08 11:14 am


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Post Travis Johnson
FiredUp4Jesus wrote:
Maybe you misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about one on one talking, I was talking about how someone ministers the gospel from behind a pulpit. Totally different scenarios.


We were talking in a group of about 4-5 people.

But, what if he was in a nursing home and there were restrictions on how loud he could be? Or, if he was speaking to a group of German librarians who totally despised outwardly expressive emotions? I'm not discounting Kevin's personality, style, or heart at all. Kevin is a beast, a preaching machine, and a good leader. God's hand is on him and he is being used. That is a humbling thing, an incredible thing.

Anyway, forget my personal perspective and consider Paul's words to the Corinthians:

Quote:
19 Even though I am a free man with no master, I have become a slave to all people to bring many to Christ. 20 When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. 21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law,[d] I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.

22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.
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Post Re: Pentecostal: What we ARE NOT Charlie Metz
Travis Johnson wrote:
First, I'm, not a big fan of the term "Pentecostal." Nor, am I a fan of the term Charismatic. I feel they are incomplete or inaccurate representations of our experience. I have yet to meet a person who has had a "Pentecostal" experience where A) tongues of fire sat on their head and B) where they spoke in Spanish as the Spirit gave the utterance.

I think the term "Continuationist" is more representative of my experience and the experience of our denomination. But, that is my personal struggle and observation.


Since we are talking about terms, then let's look at a few others...

Unchurched... This is definitely not an appropriate term. It lends itself to "churched" being an acceptable term for a believer. However, we know a lot of folks who are "churched" that are going to hell. Why not call them what the proper description should be... Sinner, lost, hethen, unrepentent, something other than unchurched?

Seeker... This is not an appropriate term either. The Bible says that men are lovers of darkness, none seek the light. So, this term is a lie. I am not sure there is another term to replace this because there is no such thing. Maybe a church shopper? That in itself is silly too.

Backslidden... If you are backslidden...were you saved anyway? Woa, this one will catch a lot of slack from COG die hards, of which I am. Just asking the question.

Anyway, since you are a lover of words, I figured I would throw a few out there to see if you agree...
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