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POLL: Tongues as the initial physical evidence?
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Post Scooter BlessedinMsTn
Absolutely.... show me one time where Satan can produce the Agape Love of God.. he can only produce love that depends on another's persons response.. show me one time that Satan has been able to mimick,, loving his enemies or doing good to those who despite fully use him..

cant happen.. only those filled with the Spirit of God can show unconditional Love
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3/26/08 9:55 am


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Post I do (with qualifications) Yo Dude
I believe it is AN initial evidence. I also believe that it is THE PREDOMINANT initial evidence.

But I am also open to some other supernatural manifestation that would imply that the Holy Ghost had come.
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3/26/08 9:57 am


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Post Ichthus77
I certainly do. It is the evidence in Scripture predicted in the OT (Is. 28:11,12) and the Bible pattern in Acts. However it is not the permanent or ongoing proof of the experience. It is only the INITIAL PHYSICAL evidence (the FIRST OUTWARD VISIBLE sign). Fruit is not immediately visible or measureable so hence it is never given as a sign in the Bible accounts.

The REFRESHING experience of God comes with stammering lips and another tongue just like the Bible prophecied.
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3/26/08 10:06 am


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Post Re: POLL: Tongues as the initial physical evidence? 2ndgeneration
Old Time Country Preacher wrote:
How many a yall believe that speakin in tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit?


I absolutley believe it. Though there are many gifts that operate in the life of the Spirit-filled believer, the utterance of tongues is the INITIAL evidence of the experience. Initial is not the completion but rather the beginning of the infilling.
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3/26/08 10:23 am


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Post Absolutely, positively BishopsWife
No further explanation needed Acts Enthusiast
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3/26/08 10:52 am


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Post Delete BishopsWife
Sorry - entered twice

Last edited by BishopsWife on 3/26/08 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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3/26/08 11:01 am


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Post Initial Evidence BishopsWife
There are a lot of wonderful people that are morally good, that do love their enemies and do good. I can name quite a few that have stood by me for years. They have never given their heart to the Lord, so obviously not filled with the Spirit of God. I have one friend in particular that would do anything in the world for you - just ask - she's never once failed in 35 years! She has unconditional love ... and for her enemies that have attacked her .. she has done good for those that despise her. Acts Enthusiast
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3/26/08 11:03 am


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Post Re: Scooter EdSturgill
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Absolutely.... show me one time where Satan can produce the Agape Love of God.. he can only produce love that depends on another's persons response.. show me one time that Satan has been able to mimick,, loving his enemies or doing good to those who despite fully use him..

cant happen.. only those filled with the Spirit of God can show unconditional Love
2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
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3/26/08 12:53 pm


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Post Yes........but Mike Burgner
I'm not 100% convinced that it is the only evidence that we have indeed been baptized in the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures we use as proof of this doctrine leave some questions in my mind.
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3/26/08 1:30 pm


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Post Fisher
Yes!
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3/26/08 1:33 pm


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Post Re: Yes........but J Ryan Herrington
MikeBurgner wrote:
I'm not 100% convinced that it is the only evidence that we have indeed been baptized in the Holy Spirit. The Scriptures we use as proof of this doctrine leave some questions in my mind.


Hey Mike, I'm not sure if anyone is saying it's the only evidence as much as it is the first distinguishable evidence.
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3/26/08 2:10 pm


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Post Yes Phil Hoover
my "initial physical evidence" was speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance..

Do I say that this is 100% true across the board for every Spirit-filled believer?

I can't say that.

But I do know it was true for me.

More than 36 years ago.
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3/26/08 2:18 pm


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Post Old Time Country Preacher
Well, the parody must pontificate:

The ole timer believes that speaking with tongues is the initial, physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Now, far as Blesseds silly suggestion that the fruit a the spirit is the only thing the booger man cant mimic, hey, Im still laughin over at one. Satan can mimic ever single one of em--as needed--for the purpose a deception an heretical purposes.........
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3/26/08 3:29 pm


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Post Re: Scooter Scooter
BlessedinMsTn wrote:
Absolutely.... show me one time where Satan can produce the Agape Love of God.. he can only produce love that depends on another's persons response.. show me one time that Satan has been able to mimick,, loving his enemies or doing good to those who despite fully use him..

cant happen.. only those filled with the Spirit of God can show unconditional Love


Response: So in other words, no you don't have a scripture. Laughing Cool
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3/26/08 9:02 pm


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Post Curtis Akers
yes
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3/27/08 8:09 am


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Post Green Eyes
yes I do
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3/27/08 3:42 pm


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Post Physical is the key chrispowell
Initial PHYSICAL...yes. I can agree to this. However, take out physical and emphasize INITIAL...not to sure about that one.

Tongues may be the first physical sign, but I am not sure it is the first sign altogether.

Shalom,
Chris
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3/28/08 11:44 am


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Post My thoughts drmrc
One cannot read the book of Acts without recognizing that there is a very close association between being filled with (baptized in) the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. To deny this shows a certain level a lack of integrity in interpretation. However, building a doctrinal premise from the historical literature of Scripture (such as Acts) without validation and confirmation from the didactic sections of scripture (such as the epistles) is not always a sound approach. For instance, in Acts 5:15 we have the incident of sick being placed in the shadow of Peter to be healed. This is a historical incident that does not allow for a "theology of shadow passing."

So here is the question...Is there anywhere in the New Testament didactic writings where it is "taught" that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit? Do any of the epistles, which do address extensively the doctrine of the person and work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer and in the church, teach that unless someone has spoken in tongues he/she cannot claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit? In all honesty, I don't think so. If this is a cardinal doctrine of Christianity as we Pentecostals seem to strongly believe, then why would God not have moved upon Paul, or Peter, or John, or James, or the writer of Hebrews or some other Apostle to clearly articulate it in their writings? This would have solved the problem and ended the discussion.

The dogmatic belief that unless someone has spoken in tongues, they are not Spirit-filled creates a real dilemma. Are we going to say that great men and women of God who have won thousands--even millions--to Christ, who have advanced the Kingdom of God into the dark corners of the earth, who are shinning lights of Gospel's power, who have planted churches and opened nations to the Gospel are not filled with the Spirit simply because they have not spoken in tongues? People like Billy Graham, Mother Teressa, Bill Bright, A. W. Tozer, D. L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, John Knox, John Wesley, etc. etc. etc. There are untold numbers of believers who lived prior to the 20th Century Pentecostal and Charismatic revival who, being moved the the Spirit, accomplish much for the Kingdom of God...yet they never spoke in tongues. Are we prepared to deny that they were truly filled with the Holy Spirit? I am not.

I consider myself and my church to be a part of the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement (not that I agree with all that has occurred under this banner--that's another discussion). I think we need to do some deeper biblical/theological reflection on this topic that is very important to us. It is much easier to tow "the company line" than to do theological reflection.

Here is how I approach this important topic. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14:5, wrote that he wished every Christian spoke in tongues. So this means speaking in tongues is a good thing. It is a spiritual experience that should be desired by every Christian. The issue is not that you "have" to speak in tongues to be filled with the Spirit. It is that when you are filled with the Spirit, you "get" to speak in tongues. We need to change our thinking about tongues from the "evidential" idea to the "beneficial blessing" idea. Speaking in tongues is a spiritually edifying manifestation that God has given as a gift to those who have been filled with the Spirit. It is not the only blessing of the Spirit-filled life, but it is one that Paul said he desired for every believer. It is not a qualifying evidence of whether or not a person has been filled. In fact, I am not sure you can narrow the Scripture down to a single "initial, qualifying" evidence.

I highly recommend Jack Hayford's book "The Beauty of Spiritual Language." I found this book to be very significant in my own understanding of this topic.

These are my thoughts on the issue...for what it's worth.

Mike Chapman
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3/28/08 8:11 pm


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Post DHDRabbi
Great post, Pastor Chapman. Very Happy [Insert Acts Pun Here]
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3/28/08 8:29 pm


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Post Re: My thoughts 2ndgeneration
drmrc wrote:
One cannot read the book of Acts without recognizing that there is a very close association between being filled with (baptized in) the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues. To deny this shows a certain level a lack of integrity in interpretation. However, building a doctrinal premise from the historical literature of Scripture (such as Acts) without validation and confirmation from the didactic sections of scripture (such as the epistles) is not always a sound approach. For instance, in Acts 5:15 we have the incident of sick being placed in the shadow of Peter to be healed. This is a historical incident that does not allow for a "theology of shadow passing."

So here is the question...Is there anywhere in the New Testament didactic writings where it is "taught" that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit? Do any of the epistles, which do address extensively the doctrine of the person and work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer and in the church, teach that unless someone has spoken in tongues he/she cannot claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit? In all honesty, I don't think so. If this is a cardinal doctrine of Christianity as we Pentecostals seem to strongly believe, then why would God not have moved upon Paul, or Peter, or John, or James, or the writer of Hebrews or some other Apostle to clearly articulate it in their writings? This would have solved the problem and ended the discussion.

The dogmatic belief that unless someone has spoken in tongues, they are not Spirit-filled creates a real dilemma. Are we going to say that great men and women of God who have won thousands--even millions--to Christ, who have advanced the Kingdom of God into the dark corners of the earth, who are shinning lights of Gospel's power, who have planted churches and opened nations to the Gospel are not filled with the Spirit simply because they have not spoken in tongues? People like Billy Graham, Mother Teressa, Bill Bright, A. W. Tozer, D. L. Moody, Jonathan Edwards, John Knox, John Wesley, etc. etc. etc. There are untold numbers of believers who lived prior to the 20th Century Pentecostal and Charismatic revival who, being moved the the Spirit, accomplish much for the Kingdom of God...yet they never spoke in tongues. Are we prepared to deny that they were truly filled with the Holy Spirit? I am not.

I consider myself and my church to be a part of the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement (not that I agree with all that has occurred under this banner--that's another discussion). I think we need to do some deeper biblical/theological reflection on this topic that is very important to us. It is much easier to tow "the company line" than to do theological reflection.

Here is how I approach this important topic. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 14:5, wrote that he wished every Christian spoke in tongues. So this means speaking in tongues is a good thing. It is a spiritual experience that should be desired by every Christian. The issue is not that you "have" to speak in tongues to be filled with the Spirit. It is that when you are filled with the Spirit, you "get" to speak in tongues. We need to change our thinking about tongues from the "evidential" idea to the "beneficial blessing" idea. Speaking in tongues is a spiritually edifying manifestation that God has given as a gift to those who have been filled with the Spirit. It is not the only blessing of the Spirit-filled life, but it is one that Paul said he desired for every believer. It is not a qualifying evidence of whether or not a person has been filled. In fact, I am not sure you can narrow the Scripture down to a single "initial, qualifying" evidence.

I highly recommend Jack Hayford's book "The Beauty of Spiritual Language." I found this book to be very significant in my own understanding of this topic.

These are my thoughts on the issue...for what it's worth.

Mike Chapman



If I understand the writings of John Wesley correctly, he said that there are times when he is in his time of prayer that the "blessed Holy Spirit prays in me, through me, and for me in languages that I cannot understand."

I may be mistaken about this.
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3/29/08 10:11 am


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